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Old 07-14-2003, 11:11 AM   #1
Cliff Geysels
Dojo: En Shin Bouwel
Location: Herentals
Join Date: Mar 2003
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Omote or ura?

I was just wondering: in a real-life situation, what do you think would be most efficient: going omote or ura when doing your technique? And also: what do you prefer when training in your dojo?

My opinion is ura would be the best choice because you turn more away from your opponent which I think is still safer, but please give me your opinion about this. I'm curious.

Cliff.
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Old 07-14-2003, 12:59 PM   #2
deepsoup
Dojo: Sheffield Shodokan Dojo
Location: Sheffield, UK
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Re: Omote or ura?

Quote:
Cliff Geysels wrote:
I was just wondering: in a real-life situation, what do you think would be most efficient: going omote or ura when doing your technique? And also: what do you prefer when training in your dojo?

My opinion is ura would be the best choice because you turn more away from your opponent which I think is still safer, but please give me your opinion about this. I'm curious.
Hi Cliff,

There seem to be so many ways of using the words "omote" and "ura" that I dont think its safe to assume you and I mean the same thing by them. Hypothetical "real-life" discussions are horribly slippery too.

My catch-all answer: "It depends."

The only thing I will stick my neck out and say for sure is that I dont think the kind of big tenkan movements where you turn your back on uke altogether are particularly well advised in the *ahem* "real world".

Sean

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Old 07-14-2003, 01:02 PM   #3
DanielR
Location: New York
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Re: Omote or ura?

Hi Cliff,
Quote:
Cliff Geysels wrote:
in a real-life situation, what do you think would be most efficient: going omote or ura when doing your technique?
I usually don't post here on Aikido-related subjects, not being nearly as experienced as many of the forum members here. But this is related to something one of our senseis addressed recently (as they do regularly), so I thought you might find it relevant. Sensei demonstrated the two variations (omote and ura) of kaitennage, and explicitly showed when each is applicable. As I understood it, the ura variation makes more sense when the uke is trying to lunge at you while you're doing the tecnhique - so you just send him flying to the very direction he's trying to go. Otherwise you can do the omote variation, with the optional knee atemi to the face.

The point being - both omote and ura have their place, and you choose one or the other according to uke's behavior.

Daniel
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Old 07-14-2003, 01:20 PM   #4
Dave Miller
 
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Definitions:

Perhaps someone would be so kind as to define "Omote" and "Ura"...

DAVE

If you're working too hard, you're doing it wrong.
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Old 07-14-2003, 01:45 PM   #5
DanielR
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Re: Definitions:

Quote:
Dave Miller wrote:
Perhaps someone would be so kind as to define "Omote" and "Ura"...
Hi Dave,

Jun's pronunciation guide translates "omote" as "Techniques done with nage in front of uke", and "ura" as "Techniques done with nage in back of uke". For example, the way we're taught, shihonage omote is stepping in front of the uke, and ura is turning behind the uke. In another style I heard these variations called, if I'm not mistaken, irimi and tenkan, respectively.

Daniel
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Old 07-14-2003, 02:14 PM   #6
Dave Miller
 
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Thanks.


DAVE

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Old 07-14-2003, 05:02 PM   #7
Mel Barker
Dojo: University of Louisville Aikido Club
Location: Louisville, KY
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Re: Re: Definitions:

Quote:
Daniel Rozenbaum (DanielR) wrote:
Hi Dave,

Jun's pronunciation guide translates "omote" as "Techniques done with nage in front of uke", and "ura" as "Techniques done with nage in back of uke". For example, the way we're taught, shihonage omote is stepping in front of the uke, and ura is turning behind the uke. In another style I heard these variations called, if I'm not mistaken, irimi and tenkan, respectively.
Jun certainly has more accurate usage than I, but in our dojo, we draw a distinction between omote and ura vis a vis irimi and tenkan.

Our lexicon:

omote - in front

ura - behind

Irimi - enter

tenkan - turn

So, we can irimi either in front or behind uke (depending on the attack and technique).

For example: Shomenuchi Ikkyo Omote - we enter (irimi) to uke's front (omote).

Shomenuchi Iriminage - we enter (irimi) to uke's back side (ura).

I could go on, but this is a distinction that I haven't heard discussed elsewhere, so I glad this thread was started. I'd love to hear others insights.

Mel Barker
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Old 07-14-2003, 05:10 PM   #8
akiy
 
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Re: Re: Re: Definitions:

Quote:
Mel Barker wrote:
omote - in front

ura - behind

Irimi - enter

tenkan - turn

[snip]

I could go on, but this is a distinction that I haven't heard discussed elsewhere, so I glad this thread was started. I'd love to hear others insights.
It's pretty much the same as I use the terms and I do make the distinction sometimes when I'm forced in front of a class.

I remember Chuck Clark showing me several years ago that it's possible to do ikkyo omote irimi, ikkyo omote tenkan, ikkyo ura irimi, and ikkyo ura tenkan...

-- Jun

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Old 07-15-2003, 09:56 AM   #9
souji
 
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Re: Re: Re: Definitions:

Quote:
Mel Barker wrote:
Our lexicon:

omote - in front

ura - behind

Irimi - enter

tenkan - turn
Yeah we refer Ura and Omote like that in our dojo. Not too much complication but easy to understand.

Omote is a more straight forward attack while Ura is more on inbalancing the opponent or Uke more. Shihan Hanif told me that in real life situation a conflict can begin anywhere. Even in an elevator. So Omote is a wise choice in a stuffy places such as elevators or near to a wall. While Ura is better on immobalizing the opponent so it is better used in wide spaces unless you have practically mastered the technique to be used in a limited space.

So the fact reamins that there is two variations of the locking techniques and some of the throwing techniques. Which one to do in a real conflict situation? It's up to the nage actually :P
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Old 07-16-2003, 12:02 PM   #10
BC
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Don't forget tenshin!

Robert Cronin
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Old 08-07-2003, 09:09 PM   #11
aikidoc
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I have always tried to view the terms in terms of movement patterns.

Movement locations: omote to the front; ura to the rear.

Movement patterns: irimi-entering; tenkan-turning. Tenkai-pivoting. Soto-turning to the outside. Uchi-turning inside.

Early text by Tohei used the terms irimi and tenkan. This was later revised to omote and ura by hombu from what I can tell. Some of the senseis who went with Tohei used irimi and tenkan and then when they came back to hombu they started to modify the terms (I believe AAA did this from what I have seen of early test requirement terms).
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Old 08-08-2003, 12:12 PM   #12
jxa127
Dojo: Itten Dojo -- Mechanicsburg, PA
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Hi John,

I'm at an AAA dojo and I can't speak for historical usage in the organization, but currently we have omote/ura, tenkan/irimi, tenshin, and uchi/soto movements.

Regards,

-Drew

----
-Drew Ames
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Old 08-08-2003, 01:32 PM   #13
Mathias
 
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Hi Cliff,

I would say that going ura is safer in the sense that its harder for uke to hit you. For example ai hanmi ikkyo, if you go ura when entering its almost impossible for uke to hit you with a punch with his free arm. If you go omote and donīt do i good enough maybe uke can hit you.

But if you donīt know what attack uke going to do i think itīs safer to go omote. In randori for example i almost always go omote and use atemi to protect myself. The reason for this is that if uke for example raises his arm and you think heīs doing shomen uchi and you start going ura and then he does yokomen uchi instead you are actually moving in to the strike... OUCH!

Same with tsuki. If uke does a hook instead of a straight tsuki.

So for a real life situation, where you donīt know whats coming at you I think it would be better to move omote.

By the way, you can always enter omote and then do a ura technique...

Just MY opinion.

Regards/ Mathias

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