Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-09-2006, 04:56 AM   #101
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
Offline
Re: aikido and competition

In my experience Aikiweb is pretty civil by comparison to a number of other sites/forums.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2006, 05:15 AM   #102
gdandscompserv
 
gdandscompserv's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,214
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido and competition

I don't care for competition.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2006, 06:07 AM   #103
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido and competition

Quote:
Mark Walsh wrote:

So I was just throwing my hands up in despair at the competitiveness, flamimg, bitchin, proposterone and posturing that occours on some Aiki Web threads (not this one thankfully) - when I realised I dont have a point of reference.

So question for people who use other discussion sites - how aiki are AikiWeb users by comparisson? Does the whole aikido thing show up at all in our interactions?

Cheers,
Mark
Well, I swear a lot less here, that's for sure :-) I find discussions here can be hit and miss. Sometimes we get a good discussion that goes right to the heart of the issue, and other times we just have circular arguments that end up dying a flaming death.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2006, 06:40 AM   #104
mickeygelum
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
mickeygelum's Avatar
Dojo: Warren Budokan, Ohio USA
Location: Youngstown, Ohio
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 502
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido and competition

O Sensei got on a train and challenged a sumo champion, he defeated him...but, yet challenged him, yeah, you are right he NEVER used his beloved art to compete in any way....y'all need to research O Sensei just a little more...

Miku-san

....oh, forgot to mention that he provoked the sumo champion into the confrontation
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2006, 07:00 AM   #105
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,219
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: aikido and competition

I was once told that the root of the word competitor is similar to that of companion, and that the runner wants his friend to race against him to improve his own performance. I like that explanation, even if the etymology is not correct.

A contest has 'rules' and when the whistle blows there is a recognised winner/loser/drawer.

Judo BJJ and the like I see as chess with alot more sweat and grunting.

Aikido is not a sport so the rules are not the same. The only person to 'beat' is oneself, and even that doesn't sound right.

The way of harmony with ki, how do you compete with that?

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2006, 07:09 AM   #106
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido and competition

I would say the competition part is about perfection of timing and physical form. These things lead you to perfecting spirital and other internal forms. There are aikido competitions, so someone must find some value in it.

A lot of people do not put any stock in perfecting physical form. It is a choice they make, and there is nothing wrong with it. My personal beleif is that you have to perfect the physical forms in order to better understand the mental underpinnings.

When I go to compettion, I am mostly competing against myself. I'm trying to do 'better' then I did last time. I'm trying to improve my game. Its about self improvement. Everyone else there is just a tool for my self improvement. Of course there is the thrill of the match and the adrenaline rush and all that goood stuff. But really I go because I like sparing against different people, and you learn the most from sparing with someone you have never met.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2006, 09:51 AM   #107
DaveS
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 91
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: aikido and competition

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
Yes, that is the goal with sparring, not to care about "winning" or "losing," and you can be trying to "win" even in a class situation when you think you're not doing it. I learned this the hard way. That's why I say your ego and your pride can be working on you even when you think they're not. And I would be lying if I said I was there yet, although I understand that's where I want to be.
Yeah, I think learning to deal with this sort of thing is definitely something I'm getting out of the sort of competition that we have - by introducing a little competition into our aikido in the form of shiai bouts, maybe we're learning firstly not to think of an opponent as an enemy and then to be more philosophical about winning or losing in real life.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2006, 09:57 AM   #108
deepsoup
Dojo: Sheffield Shodokan Dojo
Location: Sheffield, UK
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 524
Offline
Re: aikido and competition

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
I was once told that the root of the word competitor is similar to that of companion, and that the runner wants his friend to race against him to improve his own performance. I like that explanation, even if the etymology is not correct.
I like that view of things too, and the etymology is correct, afaik.

The "com" part of the word is the same, and means "together"

In "companion", the second part is from "panis" meaning bread - a companion is someone you share bread with.

In "compete" the second part is from "petere" meaning strive or seek (its the root of "petition"). So "compete" literally means strive, or seek together.

Funnily enough, the Japanese 'shiai' carries much the same meaning.

Its all latin, by the way.
There's a good etymological dictionary online here:
http://www.etymonline.com/

Sean
x
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2006, 09:59 AM   #109
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 976
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido and competition

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
I've had some interesting conversations with some of my BJJ guys lately as to whether you train to do better in competitions or compete to enhance your training. i.e. do you learn so you can win, or do you compete so you can learn.

For me it's unquestionably the latter.
I look on sparring as a training method, but one of many; ideally, you shouldn't feel any differently about it than anything else. Getting to that point is the hard part.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2006, 10:01 AM   #110
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 976
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido and competition

Quote:
Mark Walsh wrote:
So question for people who use other discussion sites - how aiki are AikiWeb users by comparisson? Does the whole aikido thing show up at all in our interactions?

Cheers,
Mark
Well, one of the points of getting on the Internet is to argue. So if you like to argue, well, this is the place to be. As to how "Aiki" we are away from the computer, I have no clue. But I get my arguing out of my system online, so I guess I'm ok in the real life thing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2006, 10:12 AM   #111
Budd
 
Budd's Avatar
Dojo: Taikyoku Aikido
Location: Williamsville, NY
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 928
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido and competition

I think, a lot of the time, there's a disconnect between interpretations of "the way of harmony with energy/spirit/the universe" versus what Ueshiba Morihei was "teaching" versus what he was "doing". Different teachers on down various lineages seem to have different interpretations of all of the above. What matters most is likely the compatability of your goals with your relationship with your instructor and how that all fits in with what you're specifically training.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2006, 10:19 AM   #112
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 976
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido and competition

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
.... There are aikido competitions, so someone must find some value in it.....
Yeah, but there are plenty of branches of Aikido that don't do it, and it seems to be bound up with Aikido politics (as if that ins't obvious by now).

I think one advantage of cooperative practice is that by repeating the same reference points over and over again, they get burned into your muscle memory and you recognize them when they appear. This is how nikkyo came out a couple of time during push hands in Tai Chi. It's not that the pins and throws are better or worse than versions in other systems, but repeating them so often burns them into you.

And yes, I think something MIGHT have popped out during practice sparring once, but even after all these months, I am still evaluating it. Coulda been ikkyo. So it's possible.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2006, 10:23 AM   #113
markwalsh
Dojo: Airenjuku Brighton
Location: On the road - UK
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 515
United Nations
Offline
Re: aikido and competition

I see two kinds of "arguing": a competitive exercise where you aim to defeat an opponent, and a collaborative exercise where conversation builds knowledge on both sides. Win-lose zero sum or win-win game.

Michael - as for catharsis - I get it - same way aikido helps me get my aggression out. I guess my questions about that would be:

1. Is it kind/useful/ appropriate for us to vent on AikiWeb (I'm not saying I don't do it!!!)
2. How do you differentiate catharsis from practicing being aggressive? Studies of aggression generally indicate that catharsis is a myth and is completely infective way of reducing aggression, and while I'm not sure I agree with this, I guess when I think about it, I see aikido as transformative rather than cathartic.

Thanks for the input.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2006, 11:17 AM   #114
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,219
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: aikido and competition

Quote:
Sean Orchard wrote:
I like that view of things too, and the etymology is correct, afaik.

The "com" part of the word is the same, and means "together"

In "companion", the second part is from "panis" meaning bread - a companion is someone you share bread with.

In "compete" the second part is from "petere" meaning strive or seek (its the root of "petition"). So "compete" literally means strive, or seek together.

Funnily enough, the Japanese 'shiai' carries much the same meaning.

Its all latin, by the way.
There's a good etymological dictionary online here:
http://www.etymonline.com/

Sean
x
Thanks Sean,

I appreciate the link, it's been added to my favourites

cheers

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2006, 12:39 PM   #115
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido and competition

Thinking about this further. The greatest gains in skill have always come from me losing in competition. I learn the most about where I need to focus attention by getting beaten by a person who wants to win, vs a sparing match where my partner might be toning it down to keep the match interesting.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2006, 12:41 PM   #116
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido and competition

Hi Mark W.,

I think AikiWeb is doing just fine, even with some of the current side discussions. I think in some ways we've made pretty good strides recently, with some very interesting topics being more openly discussed and with more information sharing. Some of that progress has been difficult to achieve.

If I look at this board and some others:

E-budo -- the Aikido forum is not anywhere near as active as this board, or even as it used to be.

AJ -- Same. A strong effort was made there toward more moderation to cull out the dross and flakes...it almost killed the board. Luckily it has survived, but at some cost.

BudoSeek -- again, the aikido forum is not anywhere near as popular as AikiWeb.

So I think this forum does very well when stacked up against the "competition" (just so's to stay on topic)...

Quote:
Is it kind/useful/ appropriate for us to vent on AikiWeb
KInd?? Now we have to be KIND??

Useful...sometimes.

Appropriate...sometimes. Almost everything is appropriate...sometime...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2006, 12:49 PM   #117
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
Offline
Re: aikido and competition

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
Thinking about this further. The greatest gains in skill have always come from me losing in competition. I learn the most about where I need to focus attention by getting beaten by a person who wants to win, vs a sparing match where my partner might be toning it down to keep the match interesting.
Absolutely. Sparring is the laboratory. Competition is what tells you what you really know and what you don't.. Alot of people drop around 6 months training as soon as they step on a competition mat. That's something worth knowing....

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2006, 03:37 PM   #118
markwalsh
Dojo: Airenjuku Brighton
Location: On the road - UK
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 515
United Nations
Offline
Re: aikido and competition

Cheers Ron at al,

Good to get sopme perspective. Was in a bad mood yesterday. Gotta learn not to take life personally and just to utterly destroy the forces that oppose me efficently and cooly...or blend with them...bloddy aikistuff...

Some great discussions alive today,
Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2006, 06:10 PM   #119
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 976
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido and competition

Quote:
Mark Walsh wrote:
.... 1. Is it kind/useful/ appropriate for us to vent on AikiWeb (I'm not saying I don't do it!!!)
2. How do you differentiate catharsis from practicing being aggressive? .....
Good questions. I'm not sure I'd call what I do online -- not just in Aikiweb but in usenet, too -- "venting." Is it being aggressive? If it is, it's so subtle, I don't know it!

I suppose I like to argue more than I should. Is that "aggressive"? No idea. But I try to avoid staying in a contentious thread too long because they can be emotionally draining. It's easy enough to do in Usenet because I use forte agent in offline mode; I see a thread that already has hundreds of replies, I avoid it! Harder to do in a BB situation like this one. But I try not to get stuck in threads for too long. I don't always succeed, but I try!
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2006, 06:14 PM   #120
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 976
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido and competition

Quote:
Mark Walsh wrote:
I see two kinds of "arguing": a competitive exercise where you aim to defeat an opponent, and a collaborative exercise where conversation builds knowledge on both sides. Win-lose zero sum or win-win game ....
Rereading this gave me a flashback to Monty Python's "Argument Clinic" sketch:

"This isn't an argument."

"Yes, it is."

"No, it isn't!"

You might be a Monty Python addict if ..... Don't get me started!
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2006, 06:28 PM   #121
markwalsh
Dojo: Airenjuku Brighton
Location: On the road - UK
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 515
United Nations
Offline
Re: aikido and competition

What about, "This is an arguement!"
"Yes it is, you're right!"
"But now it's not"
"But now it is again!"

Just made that up - yeah me - Python warped my fragile young mind growing up :-)
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2006, 06:33 PM   #122
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 976
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido and competition

Quote:
Mark Walsh wrote:
What about, "This is an arguement!"
"Yes it is, you're right!"
"But now it's not"
"But now it is again!"

Just made that up - yeah me - Python warped my fragile young mind growing up :-)
My mom and I got hooked on the "Argument Clinic." A friend of ours probably thought we had lost our marbles until she heard the source material.

... yeah, off topic, but Monty Python may be even more addictive than Aikido!
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2006, 08:03 PM   #123
wendyrowe
Dojo: Aikidog Aikikai
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 199
Offline
Re: aikido and competition

I use competition as a way to test myself and my use of my art so that I can find my weaknesses and work to eliminate them. If I always worked cooperatively with people, I'd never find my weaknesses. I don't actually go to tournaments and compete to win prizes, but I do test myself against others in class and visiting whenever possible since that gives the broadest scope for trying stuff out.
Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
Good questions. I'm not sure I'd call what I do online -- not just in Aikiweb but in usenet, too -- "venting." Is it being aggressive? If it is, it's so subtle, I don't know it!

I suppose I like to argue more than I should. Is that "aggressive"? No idea. But I try to avoid staying in a contentious thread too long because they can be emotionally draining. It's easy enough to do in Usenet because I use forte agent in offline mode; I see a thread that already has hundreds of replies, I avoid it! Harder to do in a BB situation like this one. But I try not to get stuck in threads for too long. I don't always succeed, but I try!
When I've been involved in a thread for any length of time, it's been because the posts have been helping me think things through, clarify my thinking and refine my ideas. I don't post just to argue, and (naive as I am) I'm surprised to see a poster say one of the reasons to come onto forums is to argue. That may well explain the behavior I've seen on some forums (not this one, of course!). I've been using email and forum precursors extensively for the past 25 years, which has been plenty of time to see what happens when people send whatever they think without thinking it through and to learn that careful writing and civil discourse is still by far the best way to use this media despite the freedom that comes with anonymity and non-heirarchy.
Quote:
yeah, off topic, but Monty Python may be even more addictive than Aikido!
No it's not!!! (And this is from someone who had the entire Parrot, Cheese Shop and Sheep in the Trees sketches memorized in high school.)
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2006, 08:52 PM   #124
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,216
Offline
Re: aikido and competition

I recently read an article that spoke of aikido as involving internal competition rather than external competition. I am sure many of us go through many internal reactions and responses as we go.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2006, 09:07 PM   #125
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,408
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido and competition

Quote:
Wendy Rowe wrote:
No it's not!!! (And this is from someone who had the entire Parrot, Cheese Shop and Sheep in the Trees sketches memorized in high school.)
"It's getting-hit-on-the-head lessons in here."

That makes it on-topic, BTW.

"And when they get an idea'r in their 'eads -- there's no shiftin' it."

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Seminar with Frank Doran, Shihan - Aug. 8-10, 2014 at Sunset Cliff's Aikido, near San Diego's finest beaches



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Aikido in Amsterdam, Terry Lax style... tiyler_durden General 11 11-03-2008 08:31 AM
failed? Leon Aman General 15 09-28-2006 05:15 AM
Competition again!!! dps General 50 08-28-2006 09:10 AM
Dilution of aikido eugene_lo General 40 02-07-2006 11:22 AM
Tomiki Aikido and competition. jfearon General 72 03-23-2001 06:54 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:01 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate