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Old 06-03-2004, 08:16 AM   #51
paw
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Re: aikido and competition

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:
I'm not saying ONE bad word about Royler... he was like... the bjj miracle of 90s...
But made really stupid strategical moves against Genki (who is only slightly heavier).
I disagree. Genki is really, really good. He much better on the ground that most people give him credit for and his standup is better than Royler's.

Quote:
Quoting Mario Sperry "Royce did mistakes what even my bluebelts don't." Of course that is exaggerated but gets the point over. In pure BJJ Royce is a well-rounded purple. Maybe a brown by now.
Stop the hate. Royce is a bjj black belt. He may not be the "best" at MMA, vale tudo, or sport, but he definately has black belt level skills in all of those arenas.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 06-03-2004, 09:39 AM   #52
Jorx
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Re: aikido and competition

Quote:
Ian Hurst wrote:
...if you're opponent isn't attacking you, you do have the option to close them down aggressively, rather than just wait for them to play their strategy out on you. At least that's what I always assumed some of the entering throws were for.
Sure... but who actually trains this? Only the people crosstraining. If an average Aikidoka starts attacking with his mighty atemi or entering throw then its gonna look like bad boxing! And most likely he'll get beaten up pretty bad.
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Old 06-03-2004, 09:42 AM   #53
Ron Tisdale
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Re: aikido and competition

Quote:
If an average Aikidoka ...
Average by who's standards? at which dojo? Against what level of competition?

These topics are generally too general to be of much use. Though they do sometimes cover interesting information...

Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 06-03-2004, 09:49 AM   #54
Jorx
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Re: aikido and competition

Quote:
paul watt wrote:
I disagree. Genki is really, really good. He much better on the ground that most people give him credit for and his standup is better than Royler's.

Stop the hate. Royce is a bjj black belt. He may not be the "best" at MMA, vale tudo, or sport, but he definately has black belt level skills in all of those arenas.
Post has gone totally offtopic BUT:
In Genki vs. Royler match Royler attempted the same submission with the same setup from the same position FOUR times in a row! If that is not a strategical stupidity then what is it?

Royler was the best in MMA and Vale Tudo. Everyone says he is a great fighter but not a technical one. You do not have to be a bb level in BJJ to win in UFC. Royce wasn't. I was just saying that he is a great fighter but by far not one of the best in BJJ.
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Old 06-03-2004, 10:14 AM   #55
paw
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Re: aikido and competition

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:
Post has gone totally offtopic BUT:
In Genki vs. Royler match Royler attempted the same submission with the same setup from the same position FOUR times in a row! If that is not a strategical stupidity then what is it?
An attempt to end the fight. It's easy for you and me (and everyone else on the planet) to armchair quarterback things now. Genki is a very dangerous opponent.

Quote:
Royler was the best in MMA and Vale Tudo. Everyone says he is a great fighter but not a technical one.
Not sure who you're referring to.

Rickson is the best bjj'er on the planet, and that is universally acknowledged.

Royler is 3-2-1 according to Sherdog. That's not the record of the "best" MMA'er or even the "best" bjj'er in MMA. Royler is a newbie in MMA, no disrespect intended. However, Royler is extremely techical, as his Mundial wins and Abu Dhabi results show. To suggest otherwise is nuts.

Royce is 12-2-2, a much better record, IMO than Royler. Royce was a black belt when the UFC started. Royce may not be the best bjj'er on the planet, but to suggest he's not a black belt, at the time of the first UFC or now, is lunacy.

I'm starting to suspect you spend too much time reading and not enough time training. It's painfully obvious that you haven't trained with Royce, Royler, Rickson or Paulson.

Regards,

Paul

*edited to correct quote tag*
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Old 06-03-2004, 11:00 AM   #56
Jorx
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Re: aikido and competition

Quote:
paul watt wrote:
Not sure who you're referring to.
*
Blaah... damn those brazilian forenames.

I meant Royce all the way.
Royler is a bjj genius.
(Attempt to end a fight 4 times in a row with the same move? I'm not saying Royler IS stupid. I'm saying he made a mistake.)
So is Rickson (though many myths have formed around him).

Royce was not a technical BJJ fighter. Just wasn't. He sure was/is a great fighter.

And of course I haven't rolled with any of the Gracies nor Paulson. I am from estonia. Estonias BJJ / MMA scene is almost nonexistant. No formal teachers. Therefore all I do is read and watch and analyze and roll, roll, roll.
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Old 06-03-2004, 11:19 AM   #57
paw
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Re: aikido and competition

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:
(Attempt to end a fight 4 times in a row with the same move? I'm not saying Royler IS stupid. I'm saying he made a mistake.)
I'm suggesting that a) it's easy to say someone made a mistake after the result is known and b) Genki Sudo is a top level opponent. Bottom line, if Royler got tap, you'd be singing a different tune....and if Royler never attempted the submission, you'd be claiming it was right there and anyone could have just submitted Sudo.

Quote:
Royce was not a technical BJJ fighter. Just wasn't. He sure was/is a great fighter.
You'll forgive me if I again say you're wrong. Having rolled and trained with Royce and other top bjj'ers, I know, from experience that Royce is technical.

I'm done with this thread....

Regards,

Paul
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Old 06-03-2004, 11:41 AM   #58
Jorx
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Re: aikido and competition

I definately wouldn't say anyone could have submitted Sudo
But yes, you are right. And I am right too.

I'll give you you're opinion. And what's worth my opinion against someone who's actually rolled with Royce (hehe ) I'll add your knowledge to my baggage.

I'm done as well... exept when this takes another direction again
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Old 06-05-2004, 06:59 PM   #59
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Re: aikido and competition

as some one who has rolled with genki i can say it's not his technique but his spirit that makes him great.he would invent a new kyu just for a fight,then you'ld never see it again.the technique is imaterial ,it's a spiritual matter.
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Old 06-06-2004, 02:30 PM   #60
Jorx
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Re: aikido and competition

Well as I have looked a bit now into information in the net about Jason Delucia I would ask can anyone say HOW does what he does in the ring differ from what the others do? Where is the Aikido / Five Animal Kung-Fu in that? His wins have come with RNCs / armbars/ kneebars etc. Isn't that BJJ?
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Old 06-06-2004, 03:24 PM   #61
wendyrowe
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Re: aikido and competition

Have you watched Jason's fights? They end with submissions because they have to END, but what he does before that looks variously like kung fu and aikido and other standing arts. If you watch several of his fights, you'll see they look very different from each other. What he does depends on his opponent's actions, since he does whatever it takes to blend with his opponent to get a favorable position.
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Old 06-06-2004, 07:12 PM   #62
JasonFDeLucia
 
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Re: aikido and competition

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:
Well as I have looked a bit now into information in the net about Jason Delucia I would ask can anyone say HOW does what he does in the ring differ from what the others do? Where is the Aikido / Five Animal Kung-Fu in that? His wins have come with RNCs / armbars/ kneebars etc. Isn't that BJJ?
jorgen,perhaps you should study as much archival information as you can and you will see.that the choke is as much a focal point as any other finishing technique ,even with mr.ueshiba.indeed there are photos and footage of mr. ueshiba using many goshin jutsu forms(probably taght him by mr.kano himself)including kata gatame(side choke)hadaka jime(good old rear choke)hanmi handati morote seoi nage(just a two hand judo throw)and knee strikes.not to mention the number of times you see him do a striking version of entering throw for combat.versus the soft form done for practice .mr.ueshiba was indeed the highest evolution of his day ,but in a scrape his aiki reduces to the same as anyones .what makes it more efficient,and more beautiful is this.the technique starts long before you meet the opponant.
for example in judo the premise of throwing is ,off balance ,enter,then throw.in aikido it is enter ,off balance ,then enter and throw.and regardless of the particular technique ,you must obey laws and principles.for example one law/principle that is a must to do aikido properly is sankaku irimi.but most teachers do not impart this wisdom easily because in aiki it is usually part of 'o' kuden .i personally learned sankaku irimi from kenpo master''bruce juchnick'' mr.ueshiba probably learned it in china''ba gua''.and here is a hint.in the forum he fought in there were swords and knives.you'ld be a fool to do a double leg take down to a man with a knife.so they didn't practice that way so much.trust me if mr.ueshiba did ufc instead of sumo(in sumo the match is done when one hand touches the mat)you'ld see him sprawling and doing sacrifice throws ect.the techniques are true guides ,but every technique is an aiki technique provided it is done in that vein ,yeild then redirect ,not just power through.
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Old 06-07-2004, 01:58 PM   #63
Chad Sloman
 
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Re: aikido and competition

I hate to try to resurrect this dead horse, but I feel like I should whip it some more............. I realize that this argument has a lot to do with theoreticals (mainly on the part of people who don't speak from experience), but something should be said about individual skill and applicability. Mr. DeLucia is very skilled and has awesome ability. He can make aikido work for him in whatever situation he chooses. Can I take my aikido skills and fight a NHB/MMA fighter and win? No. Why? Because I'm just not that good. But that DOESN'T mean that aikido doesn't work in that situation. For people like me (not so skilled), aikido can work best against people who overcommittedly attack. When some guy says, "I am going to punch you out", I say "please, I don't want to fight" and he takes a swing at my head unprovoked, this is where my aikido will work best. But, if said situation I say "OK, let's go" and I put my fists up, I'm going to have a much harder time. I've given up my element of surprise and I've raised my opponents defenses. Not saying aikido won't work just that for me it's going to be more difficult now. Last weekend I had the unique opportunity of training with a submission wrestler. I had a great time. As soon as we started it was obvious to me that if I didn't initiate something it was going to be a mexican stand-off of us circling each other and slapping hands looking for a weakness that neither of us were going to give. So I decided to fight his fight (which I was planning to do anyways) and he taught me a lot about ground-fighting. But for me at least, it goes to show that there are applications where aikido works better than others, and all out competition is not one of them. Something else to note is that wrestling and aikido share techniques and principles but just have different names. I, for one, have become an advocate for "alive" training for those wanting to speed up the process of making their fighting techniques applicable. My cross-training in full-contact karate has given me this opportunity and I believe it's good. I now can really try to catch my partners in iriminage during full speed sparring and use other aiki principles. But the important thing for me though is that when I spar or wrestle at 100%, I'm not fighting to beat the other person but rather I'm just challenging myself to get better. We can still have good attitudes and train hard with our brothers and sisters. Kano really was on to something I think.

A real man does not think of victory or defeat. He plunges recklessly towards an irrational death. By doing this, you will awaken from your dreams.
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Old 06-07-2004, 04:58 PM   #64
Infamousapa
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Re: aikido and competition

Quote:
paul watt wrote:
I disagree. Genki is really, really good. He much better on the ground that most people give him credit for and his standup is better than Royler's.



Stop the hate. Royce is a bjj black belt. He may not be the "best" at MMA, vale tudo, or sport, but he definately has black belt level skills in all of those arenas.

Regards,

Paul
JUST LIKE BRUCE LEE QUOTES"BELTS ARE GOOD TO HOLD YOUR PANTS UP"
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Old 06-07-2004, 06:02 PM   #65
PeterR
 
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Re: aikido and competition

Tony

Paul was talking about skill levels not a piece of cloth. In BJJ context his skill level is such, compared with others of the same rank. Earned by winning competition.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-12-2004, 07:02 PM   #66
JasonFDeLucia
 
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Re: aikido and competition

Quote:
Chad Sloman wrote:
I hate to try to resurrect this dead horse, but I feel like I should whip it some more............. I realize that this argument has a lot to do with theoreticals (mainly on the part of people who don't speak from experience), but something should be said about individual skill and applicability. Mr. DeLucia is very skilled and has awesome ability. He can make aikido work for him in whatever situation he chooses. Can I take my aikido skills and fight a NHB/MMA fighter and win? No. Why? Because I'm just not that good. But that DOESN'T mean that aikido doesn't work in that situation. For people like me (not so skilled), aikido can work best against people who overcommittedly attack. When some guy says, "I am going to punch you out", I say "please, I don't want to fight" and he takes a swing at my head unprovoked, this is where my aikido will work best. But, if said situation I say "OK, let's go" and I put my fists up, I'm going to have a much harder time. I've given up my element of surprise and I've raised my opponents defenses. Not saying aikido won't work just that for me it's going to be more difficult now. Last weekend I had the unique opportunity of training with a submission wrestler. I had a great time. As soon as we started it was obvious to me that if I didn't initiate something it was going to be a mexican stand-off of us circling each other and slapping hands looking for a weakness that neither of us were going to give. So I decided to fight his fight (which I was planning to do anyways) and he taught me a lot about ground-fighting. But for me at least, it goes to show that there are applications where aikido works better than others, and all out competition is not one of them. Something else to note is that wrestling and aikido share techniques and principles but just have different names. I, for one, have become an advocate for "alive" training for those wanting to speed up the process of making their fighting techniques applicable. My cross-training in full-contact karate has given me this opportunity and I believe it's good. I now can really try to catch my partners in iriminage during full speed sparring and use other aiki principles. But the important thing for me though is that when I spar or wrestle at 100%, I'm not fighting to beat the other person but rather I'm just challenging myself to get better. We can still have good attitudes and train hard with our brothers and sisters. Kano really was on to something I think.
THANK YOU!
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Old 08-09-2004, 11:08 PM   #67
Martin Ruedas
 
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Re: aikido and competition

What are you trying to tell us louis?
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Old 08-09-2004, 11:20 PM   #68
Devon Natario
 
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Re: aikido and competition

I guess I look at these argument as null and void. You have people that train in Choy Lay Fut that can not use their techniques in a point sparring match. Heck, same goes for most Martial Arts. Kajukenbo's techniques are deadly as well. Im sure most of the arts praticed have strikes to the throat and areas of the body that will incapacitate a person, or locks and throws where a person can end up with broken or injured limbs.

The fact is: Some people train for sport, some people train for spiritual growth, and some people train the "Martial Way". You wouldnt ask a Green Beret or Navy Seal if they would compete in a point sparring match- just as you wouldnt ask a Buddhist Monk to compete with you. However, you may ask the nearest Olympic Tae Kwon Doist to compete in a match, or the nearest Submission Wrestler to hit the mat. Maybe some people out there should read, "Living the Martial Way" to get a better understanding of the differences in people actually train for, and what Martial means.

Devon Natario
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Old 08-10-2004, 01:59 AM   #69
Bridge
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Re: aikido and competition

I think it's wonderful that the style of aikido I do doesn't have competition.

Already doing karate means I get my quota of ego pummelling.

One of the things with competition is that the techniques and training are only suitable for competition. I know some people (in karate) who, I'm not entirely sure, know the difference between "point scoring" techniques and "real" ones. Which is a worrying if they end up in a real life confrontation.

It also leads to "training up" for specific events. Which is nigh on like banging one's head against a wall and in some cases make you feel like the instructor is just a mean git out to give you a hard time. Don't get me wrong, sparring/kumite and competition, I enjoy very much...but the number of times, I've felt like flipping the finger at the instructor during competition run up season! Argh!

So it's nice that in aikido, you can learn valuable stuff and explore ideas without the pressures of ego prodding. So don't go changing!

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Old 08-10-2004, 02:31 AM   #70
PeterR
 
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Re: aikido and competition

Hi Bridget
Quote:
Bridget Chung wrote:
I think it's wonderful that the style of aikido I do doesn't have competition.
Well at least you are not saying Competition in Aikido is evil.
Quote:
Already doing karate means I get my quota of ego pummeling.
Ah she truly understands. Never did understand those that say competition develops egos. For the majority of us it keeps us in check.
Quote:
One of the things with competition is that the techniques and training are only suitable for competition. I know some people (in karate) who, I'm not entirely sure, know the difference between "point scoring" techniques and "real" ones. Which is a worrying if they end up in a real life confrontation.
This clicks nicely with Devon's post just before yours where he said
Quote:
The fact is: Some people train for sport, some people train for spiritual growth, and some people train the "Martial Way".
I don't think done right there is any need to be mutually exclusive. The benefits of shiai can cross over into spiritual growth, the martial way and real life confrontation. The key is attitude and balance. For example in Shodokan Aikido there is some restriction on techniques during shiai but those restricted techniques are practiced in kata and kata training predominates. The reason for shiai/randori is to develop certain attributes that kata training only can not provide. I would even go so far to say that your experience in karate competition is good for your Aikido even though the techniques in the most part are very different.

In addition to attitude and balance I think the choice of rules also has to bear some relation to all aspects of Budo. For example if light fluffy contact is enough to gain points then the usefulness of point sparring is questionable. Do the rules detract or add to all aspects of the training.

Last edited by PeterR : 08-10-2004 at 02:37 AM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-10-2004, 02:39 AM   #71
happysod
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Re: aikido and competition

Quote:
Well at least you are not saying Competition in Aikido is evil.
I'll say it for you instead, it's evil and must be stopped! Before you know it you'll be advocating martial principles and cross-training then where will we be? I defy you to pass the shoelace test when performed properly...
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Old 08-10-2004, 03:02 AM   #72
Bridge
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Re: aikido and competition

Quote:
Ian Hurst wrote:
I'll say it for you instead, it's evil and must be stopped! Before you know it you'll be advocating martial principles and cross-training then where will we be? I defy you to pass the shoelace test when performed properly...
Shoelace test? :

Tell you the truth, I don't understand how aikido competition would work. Perhaps I should go watch one?
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Old 08-10-2004, 03:17 AM   #73
PeterR
 
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Re: aikido and competition

Quote:
Bridget Chung wrote:
Shoelace test? :

Tell you the truth, I don't understand how aikido competition would work. Perhaps I should go watch one?
I have to ask - but what's the Shoelace test?

Bridget - recently someone put up some half decent randori clips.

http://www10.ocn.ne.jp/~siba/index11.htm

Just remember when you watch them that it is full resistance - no one is going down because they want to. The key is speed and timing in addition to technique.

At the moment the pages are down - maybe because of overuse.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-10-2004, 03:44 AM   #74
Yann Golanski
 
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Re: aikido and competition

Bridget,

If you're a train ride from York, then come and train with us. Tomorrow is good as Scott Albright (5th dan) is giving a course at York. His Aikido is not the prettiest you'll ever see but it is very effective. If not, any odd Monday or/and Wednesday night are good for us. Just let me know when.

If not, I am sure that I can give you some Shodokan clubs address closer to where you are. Most of us are friendly and will not mind you either watching or joining in -- in fact, joining in is better!

Ian, the invite goes to you as well. I want to beat you up! *grins evilly* (Yes, for those who are clueless, I'm joking about the beating up... sheeesh....)

The people who understand, understand prefectly.
yann@york-aikido.org York Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-10-2004, 03:49 AM   #75
happysod
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Re: aikido and competition

I've had to delete my first attempt to explain the shoelace test after remembering this is a "family site"- basically a ki-test where you're testing whether, after you've dropped the soap, you're on posture while bending over to receive it. That's my best attempt at describing this abortion of a ki-test, needless to say we have lost students thanks to this one.... I like my teacher but boy does he try to make us look stoopid sometimes (and yes it does have a fancy Japanese name, but none of us ever learn it)

Peter, forgot about them - they're much nicer than those "optimised for broadband" monstrosities aren't they. I've yet to manage to download one of them in it's entirety.

Yann, sounds good, I've enjoyed being beaten by those canvas dildoes, I mean tanto in the past - I wonder if my cardio's up to it these days (getting in the old war wound excuses first ha!)
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