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Old 05-27-2004, 10:47 PM   #26
Largo
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Re: aikido and competition

What is with all these old posts coming back to life? I wonder if it has to do with the similar threads box.

What is all of this stuff about aikido not initiating the first technique? Most of the techniques I've learned involve attacking first and having the uke successfully block that first attack. (if he can't, then why waste time using waza on a schmuck that you could just pummel? )
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Old 05-28-2004, 12:16 AM   #27
Chris Birke
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Re: aikido and competition

What sort of technique do you use to enter in on someone who is simply on guard and not moving towards you?

I know Aikido involves punching and kicking in training, but I've never seen it sparred and called Aikido. (This being a fault of those who define and restrict what Aikido is.) Do Aikidoka spar with intent to clock each other first, rather than be the one who enters in on or blends with the energy of the other? I only ever see the second. You are right about grappling range being a little late for aikido, but I'm a bit stuck on what would bring two Aikidoka against each other. I could see one person attacking an Aikidoist, who then responds, but is the person initating doing "Aikido" as most know it? Then again, I have not trained Shodokan. I'm no expert at all in any of this, just exploring the possibilities. Tell me more about this toshu randori.

Tanto sparring, as I have seen it in videos, seems like a very good thing. After I posted I realized I had totally neglected to mention it, as it's some of the best "Alive" training I've seen in the art. I should have mentioned I was restricting my thoughts to hand to hand just for simplicitie's sake.


As for the threads coming back from the dead... maybe it's time to invest in some holy water and a chainsaw?
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Old 05-28-2004, 12:56 AM   #28
Largo
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Re: aikido and competition

As for how to attack, it depends on how open they are. It's hard to explain what goes through my head. It's more of something that you feel than anything.

We only do sparring every once in a while in my dojo. It is, however, a part of the shodan test.


I think sparring done properly is an excellent tool. I would be very leary of anyone who claims a high level who hasn't actually gone and had to 'make it work' in some situation or another. You learn very quickly that just waiting, backing up, or trying to grab fails horribly. (I think that more training in sparring would be a big help to people who just say ma-ai or back up to everything)

If you don't learn how to attack, I don't think you can learn to defend.
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Old 05-28-2004, 02:32 AM   #29
PeterR
 
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Re: aikido and competition

The first technique in Budo Renshu (from 1933) has Nage initiating the waza by attacking uke with a strike to the face. This technique is practiced by Tomiki folks as the first waza in the Kory Goshin no Kata (Old Style Self Defense). Now most Aikido techniques tend to be practiced as Go no sen (reactive) but sen no sen (seizing the initiative) timing has always been part of what we do. I don't believe Aikido is an aggressive art but that does not preclude us from, once we find ourselves in a sticky situation, from using all at our disposal.

That said. Toshu randori is probably the closest to actual fighting we can get and subsequently is much more difficult to do safely and with meaning. By safety I mean not getting hurt (duh) and by meaning I mean to improve our Aikido techniques. Basically this means we exclude situations where it could degenerate from its purpose to something else.

So with tanto randori the initiative lies heavily in favor of tanto - with toshu there is no distinction. Since we don't want to train our Judo techniques we preclude grabbing the Dogi but all else is fair, same with closed punches and kicks. You want to integrate everything into a whole - cross-train. The only other rule that we have is that both members have to try their best. It's no good standing back and saying look at me I'm doing Aikido.

Whether or not you are doing tanto or toshu randori it is important to increase the level of resistance slowly. Start from none and move up. By slowly I mean over the course of weeks rather than minutes. The ones who get it look very relaxed and fluid, they probe for openings and explode with perfect timing.

I've seen similar exercises in some special Aikiaki dojos - where nage and uke continuously switch roles with techniques not taken to completion. In other words one person does something and then the other person counters with a waza and the counter is countered ... I've also seen more common is transitioning techniques where you move from one uncompleted technique to another. This is generally what's happening in Toshu randori except the idea is to take to completion everything you try and at the same time to shut the other guy down.

By mutual agreement you can introduce variations. Allow kicks and punches, dogi grabbing. I prefer not to in that I find even with these restrictions it takes effort not to get caught up in a wrestling match. However, in my little group if you go to ground keep on going. Honbu would frown on that but I just enjoy a little wrastling.

So Chris please try and get back to us.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-28-2004, 03:17 AM   #30
Yann Golanski
 
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Re: aikido and competition

Chris,

Check out my old posts as I have describe both tanto randori and toshu many times before.

But basically, toshu involves uke and tori coming and starting to do techniques on each other. It does not matter who attack first, just throw something and then when tori does a techniques react to it so it doesn't work and you are in a position to do a technique. Repeat till one of you manages to get a technique that works. The winning stage is not getting a technique working (it's boring and kata does that), it's making a technique flow from one to another.

Tanto randori involves testing your Aikido against someone who fully resists you with all his might and wants to club you one. Of course, it's done with a safety net -- at least in Shodokan. It's an exercise to see where you lack understanding of Aikido. Winning in tanto randori is having your favorite technique fail. It shows you what you have left to learn.

For all the years of Aikido I have done, I won every single match of toshu and randori because my goal is to understand Aikido.

Hope that helps.

The people who understand, understand prefectly.
yann@york-aikido.org York Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-28-2004, 10:07 AM   #31
Devin McDowell
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Re: aikido and competition

"Um Devin - you do realize that the last time someone posted to this thread was nearly a year ago."
I really should start looking at the dates on the posts before I reply.
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Old 05-28-2004, 01:04 PM   #32
Ron Tisdale
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Re: aikido and competition

I think that its good people are looking at old posts...it means they are researching a bit.

I remember once on e-budo I replied to a post from 3 or 4 years earlier...boy was I blushing!

Ron

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Old 05-28-2004, 03:11 PM   #33
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Re: aikido and competition

Quote:
Devin McDowell wrote:
What you are quoting came from a book Louis quoted, so his age has nothing to do with it.
Even though the reply may have come a little late - what book was Louis quoting? Who was the author? It appears they have a very interesting view of what Aikido is supposed to be and what it sacrifices for the sake of handing down "lethal" techniques. Just wondering is all, it's interesting when people make sweeping claims, publish them and then those who don't know better go read it and make the same assumptions.

LC

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Old 05-28-2004, 07:18 PM   #34
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Re: aikido and competition

as a humble gesture,i would offer that the good people of aiki web pettition to have a fight between either roy jones and myself,or sudo genki and my self for styles that would not force a negetive fight.then you would see ueshiba juku (best description of the tense of mr. ueshiba's aiki that would be used in nhb.
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Old 05-29-2004, 05:59 AM   #35
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Re: aikido and competition

Quote:
Jason DeLucia wrote:
as a humble gesture,i would offer that the good people of aiki web pettition to have a fight between either roy jones and myself,or sudo genki and my self
....If I recall correctly, you're bigger than Genki and smaller than Jones JR. Why not an agressive middleweight ("Charuto", Hughes, Lawler, Tiki, etc..)?

Regards,

Paul
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Old 05-29-2004, 07:42 PM   #36
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Re: aikido and competition

Quote:
paul watt wrote:
....If I recall correctly, you're bigger than Genki and smaller than Jones JR. Why not an agressive middleweight ("Charuto", Hughes, Lawler, Tiki, etc..)?

Regards,

Paul

well,I hover about 185 -190 ,genki the last time i saw him in person,might have been 175 -180 ,but it's more a question of styles to be conducive to exhibit technique.like i'm sure if i fought dan ''the beast'' he would do every thing in his power to shoot very low ankle picks to drag the fight to the ground ,crowd the fence ,and grab the fence just to pull a win .not caring to show something worth noticing,but to pull the win.roy jones is an artist.sudo genki is an artist.they are people i think are always going to be interesting ,of course the same is true of lee murray.but i also think i would make bob sapp look like the perfect uke,because he is fertile for aiki waza.just dont use fighters who fight negetively(zzzz)boring.
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Old 06-01-2004, 09:02 AM   #37
Ron Tisdale
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Re: aikido and competition

Some would say that Roy Jones Jr. fights so defensively that he might qualify for a 'negative' fighter. Frankly, he's so cautious that I have a hard time seeing someone pull off 'aiki' style techniques, whatever those might be...

Still like to watch him fight though...

RT

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Old 06-01-2004, 03:22 PM   #38
Chris Birke
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Re: aikido and competition

Ron, I like everything you say very much. I can't help but feel sometimes that I my ultimate "aiki fruitiness" is that I believe if one does Aikido in the way their heart mind body and world tells them is best, then no matter what they do is Aikido. It's coming to terms with the fact that I suppose I'm an undenyable progressive - looking for new ways to train, better, harder, safer, more realistically - ultimately more fun.

What destroys my Aikido is when I feel as though what I am doing is in bad faith. That I go against my own in the hopes that my path will come through others. I'm afraid that can't be the case for me... maybe I am wrong, and it isn't Aikido, but it will be what I do.

After I realized that it all became simple - figure out what works, train it as hard as possible, and find ways to make it safe to train harder. I'm thrilled to hear what your dojo does =).

//

Jason, you will have to convince Genki first, after Bushidot I think it's his day to pick and choose. I will certainly sign your petition if he agrees but you cannot get funding for training, I think it would be a good fight.

//

How is someone who does whatever they can do to win not an artist?

Why is ancient gung fu more creative than modern ground and pound. One seems a far newer and unexpected technique to the martial arts world (despite it not being ancient asian and therefore somehow exotic). To look at fights, not as the function of individual fighters, but as developments of art - ground and pound is an expressive new tendril. It, in time (perhaps already), will be countered by the next evolution of creativity, and this will be marked by victory.

Art in fighting is a relationship between the styles of the fighters and the audience, and right now, thick efficient veracity is a powerful statment against what has been perpetuated for so long in the martial arts. Although you may disagree, many feel that an ankle pick is still very much something worth showing.

Moreover, it provides the excellent oppertunity for the next revolution of the art, but only if it has established itself as a dominant technique. So, although some fights may bore you in their repetition to conservative victory, it is this boring repetition that will make the day when a new and successful counter emerges all the more incredible and amazing.

//

Can you tell us more about Aiki in NHB like contests?
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Old 06-02-2004, 02:13 AM   #39
Jorx
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Re: aikido and competition

Well put ANY traditional styles of striking against eachother in cage (let's take some mad-parrot-claw wu-shu or blaharyu-karate) and it still looks like bad kickboxing. Put any styles of traditional grappling -based arts against eachother in a cage (whatever jiu-jitsu, silat or whatever, Aikido included) and it looks like very bad wrestling/judo accompanied by extremly bad kickboxing...
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Old 06-02-2004, 04:34 AM   #40
Chris Birke
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Re: aikido and competition

Jorgen, I think that very thing is evidence that the ways and attitude of training in those "traditional" arts have been abandoned and distorted in modern times.

I refuse to believe that anyone was that inept and illogcal in their execution in the past; they would have died off too quickly. I think, with the peace to train without ever having to proove yourself that modernity has brought, traditional arts have quickly rotted into little more than dance. I should think their origional masters would be ashamed by what is now being passed off as an expert.

But, all is not lost. I think a current Judo master would be quite appriciated by the past JuiJitsu masters. I think the past masters would be far more inclined towards the average "modern" Judo student than the average student of what is taught as "Traditional Jujitsu" (no offense meant to those who train at good JJ schools, you should be more aware than I of the many bad schools out there claiming the name JJ).

This is no critique of the arts as a whole, though, just martial effectiveness. The fight is not everything.
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Old 06-02-2004, 12:31 PM   #41
Michael Neal
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Re: aikido and competition

Louis, I have a research project for you. Go to a Judo school and join in the class. Participate in the randori and ask a willing partner to allow you to use any "dangerous" Aikido technique you wish, even after many years of Aikidio practice you will likely find yourself slammed into the mat over and over again by Judoka with even a couple of months of experience.

Competition does have some limitations but not quite as many as semi cooperative Aikido practice.
Read this forum topic by following the link, it is about someone who has a blackbelt in TKD, I think with over 6 years of experience. He had the same type of arrogance you have about competition. I had no trouble throwing him at will and he was thrashed around badly last class by one of our brand new white belts with only 2 - 3 months experience. The TKD guy was also pretty strong and in good shape.

http://judoinfo.com/discuss/index.php?showtopic=1430

Nothing wrong with Aikido, I personally think it is a great finishing art for people who already have years of other self defense/martial arts skills. I would like to try it again when I get my blackbelt in Judo.

If people prefer not to do competitive martial arts that is perfectly fine but they really have no ground to stand on (no pun intended) when they start criticizing them for not being realistic enough.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 06-02-2004 at 12:46 PM.
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Old 06-02-2004, 12:43 PM   #42
Jorx
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Re: aikido and competition

I will post later on but now i have a question...
Is Jason DeLucia in this thread the same Jason DeLucia who got beaten by Royce Gracie in their Gym and lost to umm... Royler in UFC2?
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Old 06-02-2004, 12:55 PM   #43
paw
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Re: aikido and competition

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:
I will post later on but now i have a question...
Is Jason DeLucia in this thread the same Jason DeLucia who got beaten by Royce Gracie in their Gym and lost to umm... Royler in UFC2?
I suspect you mis-typed....Jason lost to Royce not Royler.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 06-02-2004, 06:25 PM   #44
wendyrowe
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Re: aikido and competition

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:
...Is Jason DeLucia in this thread the same Jason DeLucia who got beaten by Royce Gracie in their Gym and lost to umm... Royler in UFC2?

Yes, it's the same Jason DeLucia, and Paul's right that both of those fights were with Royce.
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Old 06-02-2004, 06:53 PM   #45
PeterR
 
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Re: aikido and competition

I think the operative word here is fought - not lost. It is far far better to have tried and failed then never to have tried at all.

Frankly Jorgen your statement sounds contemptuous - is that what you mean?

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-03-2004, 02:53 AM   #46
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Re: aikido and competition

No lost is a correct word I think. They fought under some rules which determine winning and losing. And so he lost.

No I'm not trying to especially be contemptunous. That takes a lot of courage to fight in MMA and he definately has it.

I didn't want to check the fights and I trusted my memory on the fights. I was wrong - somehow remembered that in UFC2 it was some other Gracie than Royce... didn't give enough thought to the fact that Royce was the only Gracie who competed in beginning of UFC's.

JUST... there is this guy... who has lost three times with one scenario to one person. He has tried different tactics each time but none of it mattered. Takes a lot off willpower to go there again... especially claiming to go against Genki Sudo and such who are all very good OVERALL fighters... not like Royce Gracie who is a BJJ man and even not one of the best. (that's been said enough that he has a very good spirit but BJJ on a strong blue-average purple level).

Aikido is all about COMMITED attacks. Noone who knows something about fighting doesn't give attacks with such commitment that Aikido (I'm talking about "normal" person level... let's leave all the old mystery men above 6th dan out) could deal with it.

BUT I must say I'm waiting with exitment the day that someone goes into the ring claiming that he does Aikido. And if he succeeds then my highest respects go out to him. Yet... that day is yet to come.
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Old 06-03-2004, 05:40 AM   #47
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Re: aikido and competition

"Noone who knows something about fighting doesn't give attacks with such commitment that Aikido (I'm talking about "normal" person level... let's leave all the old mystery men above 6th dan out) could deal with it."
->
No one does not give attacks that Aikido could deal with.
->
Everyone will give attacks that Aikido could deal with.


Do you mean:

No one who fights well will give attacks that Aikido could deal with?

//

Where did you hear that Royce does purple belt level BJJ. I've never rolled with him, but I've never heard that either.

//

Royler is definately a blackbelt, and I've felt him. Genki Sudo recently beat him in K1, but... Royler is like 155 lbs.

Jason is 185.

I'm pretty sure size would matter.
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Old 06-03-2004, 07:13 AM   #48
Jorx
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Re: aikido and competition

I'm not saying ONE bad word about Royler... he was like... the bjj miracle of 90s...
But made really stupid strategical moves against Genki (who is only slightly heavier).

Of course Royce IS a blackbelt... every Gracie is a Gracie blackbelt But it has been said often enough that if you take his technical ability it's not on a high level (maybe he has reached his mastership by now) but in the early UFC's and even in the recent fights with Yoshida he doesn't show beautiful jujitsu

Quoting Mario Sperry "Royce did mistakes what even my bluebelts don't." Of course that is exaggerated but gets the point over. In pure BJJ Royce is a well-rounded purple. Maybe a brown by now.

And what I mean now (correcting myself and refining my thoughts):

Noone who is smart and has some fighting knowledge and some fighting experience will throw commited attacks at you (exept for the finishing one).
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Old 06-03-2004, 07:21 AM   #49
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Re: aikido and competition

Jorgen, I think I get what you're saying, but I believe you're ascribing a much more passive response on behalf of aikido than is actually the case. Even in the aiki-fruitie land of Ki aikido, if you're opponent isn't attacking you, you do have the option to close them down aggressively, rather than just wait for them to play their strategy out on you. At least that's what I always assumed some of the entering throws were for.
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Old 06-03-2004, 07:25 AM   #50
wendyrowe
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Re: aikido and competition

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:
BUT I must say I'm waiting with exitment the day that someone goes into the ring claiming that he does Aikido. And if he succeeds then my highest respects go out to him. Yet... that day is yet to come.
Of all Jason's posts on various forums, his Bullshido posts probably speak most directly to your issue:

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...threadid=10290

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...threadid=10324

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...&threadid=8007

As for fighting and winning doing aikido, Jason lists himself as kung fu but tells anyone who'll listen how much aikido influences his style. And his record is 33 - 19 - 1 -- so he's no slouch, even if he did lose to Royce in the first two UFCs.

In the interview at the end of his Combat Aikido DVDs, Jason talks about successfully using irimi nage etc in fights. He also says aikido is really just riding your opponent's resistance, harmonizing with your opponent to solicit a response and steer it into a favorable position. That definition -- which I believe is a good one -- includes more than a set list of aiki techniques.
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