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Old 07-11-2003, 01:10 PM   #26
opherdonchin
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
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I once heard it said that boxers do relatively well 'on the street' because they are the only martial art that always trains not to pull punches. All the other arts you spend a lot of your time limiting your training because you don't want to hurt / kill / maim your opponent.

Thankfully, I have no street experience. I also have no strong opinions on this issue (except, maybe, that I find it slightly amusing), but I thought I'd throw that idea into the fray.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 07-11-2003, 01:34 PM   #27
Patrick O'Reilly
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I think the "just go train" idea sums it all up. Not only can you get into the "which art is best" discussion then it's the "which style in that art is the best" and on and on and on. Set a goal. Say pick an art and a school, train there for six months, if you don't like it move on. THE THINGS YOU LEARN THERE YOU WILL ALWAYS BE ABLE TO TAKE WITH YOU WHERE EVER YOU GO. I started in Kempo Karate/Jujitsu then Tai Chi then Aikido. Part of that had to do with what was availible where I was living. I am still in Aikido and plan to stay there. I prefer throws/locks/pins to kicks/punches/strikes. I think part of the decision on where to go is on which one of those two categories you like. If you like both a lot find one that has both.

Half the reason I study a martial art is for self defence, the other half is to keep in shape and get me out of the house. IVe met a lot of nice people while training. I'm not concerned about the color of my belt or how long it will take to "master" the art, I'm having a lot of fun and that's more important to me. I know I see a lot of smiling faces in Aikido which seems kind of funny to be smiling after your face (body) was just planted in the mat.

I guess my question is "if your not in it for the long haul why study of them".
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Old 07-11-2003, 01:56 PM   #28
Dave Miller
 
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Quote:
Michael Ellefson (MikeE) wrote:
I'm sure there are some fantastic Hapkido people out there (i.e. the scary lethal weapon type). But, as far as I'm concerned if I wanted that I would learn to drink and drive. I can be twice as scary and lethal.
I gotta agree. I think that the whole "lethal weapon" angle has nothing to do with traditional martial arts. You don't study martial arts to become a "lethal weapon", you train in hopes that you won't have to fight.

I think that in many dojo's, if they sense that someone is there for the purpose of becoming a "lethal weapon" they would discourage you from training, especially in Aikido and similar arts. There are other (dare I say, less traditional) dojos where they encourage the "lethal weapon" mentality. Personally, I think that the whole "lethal weapon" is sort of a silly, twisted macho nonsense sort of thing, but that's just one man's opinion. The problem with being a "lethal weapon" is there will always be someone a little better just waiting to whoop ya.

DAVE

If you're working too hard, you're doing it wrong.
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Old 07-11-2003, 04:29 PM   #29
bob_stra
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>O.k, I will do the right thing and step >down.

huh?

>I'm not going to battle with anyones ego. It >was my opinion and my experience.

Oh I see.

Chad, I was just funning with you. No need to be so serious. I thought the copious smilies gave it away ;-)

>All I was stating was that there are alot of >ranges and one needs to be proficient. Are >we debating that?

Not at all! I just made that point on another thread myself.

>Shurely grappling arts are effective. But >they don't focus on all areas. Ala BJJ and >Judo. BTW Hapkido is as proficient with >Jointlocking as any MA.

Ok. Not what I understood from your fist message.

>So your coment about twisting joints off. Do >you think that BJJ and Judo are the only >arts that understand the mechanics of locks >and throws.

No, but they are surely pre-eminent amongst the contenders ;-)

>Shurely wasn't trying to invoke that >response.

Take a look at the way you wrote it ;-)

...and Don't call me shurely

;-)

>Hapkido is not the best martial art out >there, it is only one of many. Although it >focus's on all ranges.

Cool beans.
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Old 07-12-2003, 07:35 AM   #30
C. Emerson
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Lethal weapon- I knew you guys would like it.

I'm just defending an art that is getting no respect on this board. It' never been appropriate to dis another art.

I have not said anything disrespectful about another art, nor have I said that one art is better than the other.
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Old 07-12-2003, 12:35 PM   #31
ewodaj
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Quote:
Chad Emerson (C. Emerson) wrote:
Lethal weapon- I knew you guys would like it.

I'm just defending an art that is getting no respect on this board. It' never been appropriate to dis another art.

I have not said anything disrespectful about another art, nor have I said that one art is better than the other.
im with you chad...people need to start respecting all martial arts and not disrespect them just because they arent taking them...if you ask everyone on this board what is their favorite martial art, theyll most likely say aikido because they are taking that...respect all arts no matter if youre taking them or not...hapkido deserves as much respect as aikido...
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Old 07-12-2003, 06:36 PM   #32
Kyri Honigh
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Yes all arts are equal, I am with that. It's the practitioner that makes the art get recognition.
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Old 07-12-2003, 06:55 PM   #33
jvadakin
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Quote:
Kyri Honigh wrote:
Yes all arts are equal, I am with that. It's the practitioner that makes the art get recognition.
That sounds very open-minded and sensitive, but I can't agree. There may not be a best martial art, but that doesn't mean that they are all equal. Imagine a movie star who decides to teach a martial art based on the gymnastics he does in the movies. He only teaches butterfly kicks, windup punches, and various jump kicks. This martial art would suck in terms of practical applicability, which is the jist of this thread -- self-defense. Even a hardworking and athletic student of this art would get himself in trouble in a fight if he tried to use it. This is an extreme example, of course. I think the traditional martial arts wouldn't have survived to be passed on to the 21st century if they all didn't have value. It's difficult to compare different arts. I just think saying they are equal might be as naive (and difficult to substantiate) as claiming that one is definitively superior. In terms of pure self-defense value (and minimal learning time), I'd bet the more brutal martial arts like Kyushinkai would be pretty good.
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Old 07-12-2003, 08:44 PM   #34
ewodaj
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I dont really believe in brutal arts...I think all martial arts can be brutal depending on how the person uses his martial art skills...a lot of people think of aikido as a spiritual art, but it can also be a very deadly art if someone uses it the wrong way...steven seagal has said this before...
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Old 07-14-2003, 02:48 PM   #35
Cyrijl
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Chad,

Sorry but you are truly ignorant about BJJ. A good BJJ does teach striking and standup jiujutsu as part of their teaching. At my school we do standup-->clinch-->groudfighting-->standup. So, you don't know what you are talking about. I used to think "I'll just do X,Y,Z," but it does not work like that. There is alot more stress with someone trying to break your arms than with someone trying to punch you. If we are fighting, i don't let your hands do anything, and you can bite all you want. I'll have clothes on.

As far as hapkido, i know nothing about so will keep my mouth shut.

melior est canis vivus leone mortuo
Bog svsami!!!
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Old 07-15-2003, 09:56 AM   #36
C. Emerson
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Joseph, you are another classy individual on this message board, I am impressed with you.

My point is traditional Gracie BJJ, which is the founder of that style of JJ, was not a strongly based striking art. The art has changed for MMA. They had some strikes in there original system although not enough to call it a striking system. Aikido also has striking in its curriculum. Although it will never be classified as a striking art.

If you look at the difference between Japanese JJ and BJJ, The majority of strikes are gone there are no weapons and BJJ ground work in more elaborate.

Are you saying that if one wanted to learn how to strike, Bjj would be a good style to learn?

I know what I'm saying, I'm not sure what you are saying.
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Old 07-15-2003, 10:26 AM   #37
C. Emerson
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Joseph, thinking about your reply, maybe I do know where your coming from.

I believe your saying that in your school, you learn how to defend as well learn how to strike.

O.k., I'll go with that. I still believe that Carlos and Helio when they developed this art it was based on grappling. And the striking that they used was more for set up then it was for finishing.

I don't think that you will see Helio and Carlos doing punches kicks knees elbows head butts into a heavy bag.

When you look at the best MMArtists out there. You would be hard pressed to find better that Ortiz and Frank Shamrock. There training is very specific, they take the best from alot of styles and use it. They would never stay exclusively with BJJ or Hapkido or whatever. Because there is more deversification needed than those arts can supply. I found Vitor belford to be interesting. What makes him so tough is his striking. Most people can't get past his hands. That was not BJJ. He had specific training with other styles. If you get past the hands than he will use his BJJ and make quick work out of his opponent.

All I'm saying is that what ever style you learn, you need to become well rounded in other arts too, if you want to be effective. I'm sorry for poorly wording that before. I was implying that my art covers all of the bases. I also would train in other arts specifically Ground ars if I knew that I would be spending alot of time down there.

Its funny when you look at the Gracies, They were unstoppable, then they were stoppable, except Rickson. Then they are regrouping to suppliment the art and there training because there is no longer that huge gap in talent anymore.

Where Ortiz and shamrock are right now, is where everyone else needs to be. Excellent with strikes and grappling and proper conditioning and muscle mass.

Chad
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Old 07-15-2003, 11:58 AM   #38
ewodaj
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Quote:
Chad Emerson (C. Emerson) wrote:
Joseph, thinking about your reply, maybe I do know where your coming from.

I believe your saying that in your school, you learn how to defend as well learn how to strike.

O.k., I'll go with that. I still believe that Carlos and Helio when they developed this art it was based on grappling. And the striking that they used was more for set up then it was for finishing.

I don't think that you will see Helio and Carlos doing punches kicks knees elbows head butts into a heavy bag.

When you look at the best MMArtists out there. You would be hard pressed to find better that Ortiz and Frank Shamrock. There training is very specific, they take the best from alot of styles and use it. They would never stay exclusively with BJJ or Hapkido or whatever. Because there is more deversification needed than those arts can supply. I found Vitor belford to be interesting. What makes him so tough is his striking. Most people can't get past his hands. That was not BJJ. He had specific training with other styles. If you get past the hands than he will use his BJJ and make quick work out of his opponent.

All I'm saying is that what ever style you learn, you need to become well rounded in other arts too, if you want to be effective. I'm sorry for poorly wording that before. I was implying that my art covers all of the bases. I also would train in other arts specifically Ground ars if I knew that I would be spending alot of time down there.

Its funny when you look at the Gracies, They were unstoppable, then they were stoppable, except Rickson. Then they are regrouping to suppliment the art and there training because there is no longer that huge gap in talent anymore.

Where Ortiz and shamrock are right now, is where everyone else needs to be. Excellent with strikes and grappling and proper conditioning and muscle mass.

Chad
rickson is the toughest gracie I heard...chad, how would ricksons bjj stand up against an expert in tkd, hapkido, or even aikido? just let me know what you think because your opinion is valued highly just like everyone elses here...
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Old 07-15-2003, 11:59 AM   #39
bob_stra
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Quote:
Chad Emerson (C. Emerson) wrote:
Joseph, you are another classy individual on this message board, I am impressed with you.

....

I know what I'm saying, I'm not sure what you are saying.
Well I'm not entirely sure what you're saying, but I get the impression that is some kind of snide remark.

Often times, what one person says is interpreted quite differently by another, especially when body language is missing to give context.

So, I accept that I might be getting the wrong end of the stick here, but the "and that's a fact JACK" remark kind coloured my impression of you.

Lest this spiral into another flame war, let me nip this in the bud ;-)

Returning to the original post -

>I fairly easy, Hapkido address's all ranges >of fighting. It is very effective

I have watched and participated in hapkido. My experience has been the following - would you agree?

Primary Focus

Kicking

Punching

(IME, similar to TKD for stance, power generation, striking types etc)

Secondary Focus

Joint locks (some of which are similar to aikido, other not)

Tertiary Focus

Throws (again IME, somewhat closer to JJJ than judo, however you all wanna split hairs over that;-)

Weaponry (I saw cane. Others?)

Missing

Clinching

Takedowns

Ground fighting

In fighting (pummeling range)

Ground striking beyond hit-lock-throw-kick.

Randori / kumite (??at higher levels??)

Contemporary weapons work

Situational awareness

Now, I'm not saying BJJ/MMA contain all these either. Mearly that I disagree with you on these grounds.

>If your style does not prepare you for >striking the clinch and the ground, then >your not prepared. That's the real world. >Hapkido address's those.

This is another of the things I disagreed with. From my (limited) experience, I do not believe hapkido adequately addresses this. Perhaps your school is different. If so, I cannot say whether it is representative of hapkido or not.

Finally -

>I have preached this for years, on most >ground controls in judo or BJJ.

The ground control are designed to immobilize.

> If I can find your eyes or groin or even

> bite you, You will be letting go of me.

No. If you "breach the protocol" like that in BJJ (meaning without prior consent between participants), you would mostly likely be beaten quite badly. Why? Because they have control of you, you've just pissed them off.

A fuller explanation can be seen here -

http://www.shootfightingstockholm.co...icles.asp?ID=1

Having said that, MMA / BJJ actually *allows* for these things, and some folks actually practice with bites and scratches left in. By prior agreement of both parties.

In summary - I have no truck with hapkido. Or with any other martial art for that matter. I not much into the chest thumping, rah rah, "hulk smash" kinda practice. I did disagree with what you posted (albeit in a slightly sarcastic manner, for which I apologize).

Fair enough?

Now, I'd be quite happy to continue with a discussion of the above (de?) merits of what I wrote above, and how it applies to hapkido, aikido and SD.
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Old 07-15-2003, 12:32 PM   #40
bob_stra
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Quote:
Louis Amberg (ewodaj) wrote:
rickson is the toughest gracie I heard...chad, how would ricksons bjj stand up against an expert in tkd, hapkido, or even aikido? just let me know what you think because your opinion is valued highly just like everyone elses here...
Why is this important to you?

Louis, you're new here, but already 6 people have you on their ignore lists. This is gonna sound indelicate (and I mean you no harm by saying this)...but your writing style is kinda rubbing ppl the wrong way.

That's just FYI. You can throw it my face and call me and as*hole if you want ;-)

Now, if ya wanna shit-stir, well, that's cool too. We had a guy on here pretending to be Jason Delucia (btw folks - that was a fakeout according to guys in the know at mma.tv Sucked in all of us IIRC)

Louis, if it's a real question, there is a great deal of footage of the gracies fighting all manner of martial artists, both in and out of the ring, with and without rules. IIRC, there's even footage of the above hapkido vs BJJ. All of it on the net. Hell there's even video of BJJ lossess.

Search via Google or ask for links on rec.martial.arts or www.mma.tv

I get the feeling your interested in aikido, but not sure of whether its the right thing for you. Why not post a little bit more about youreself and your situation so we have something to work with?

Or failing that -

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/martial-art.../preamble.html

Better still (and more fun to boot)

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/martial-art.../preamble.html
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Old 07-15-2003, 12:54 PM   #41
ewodaj
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Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich (bob_stra) wrote:
Why is this important to you?

Louis, you're new here, but already 6 people have you on their ignore lists. This is gonna sound indelicate (and I mean you no harm by saying this)...but your writing style is kinda rubbing ppl the wrong way.

That's just FYI. You can throw it my face and call me and as*hole if you want ;-)

Now, if ya wanna shit-stir, well, that's cool too. We had a guy on here pretending to be Jason Delucia (btw folks - that was a fakeout according to guys in the know at mma.tv Sucked in all of us IIRC)

Louis, if it's a real question, there is a great deal of footage of the gracies fighting all manner of martial artists, both in and out of the ring, with and without rules. IIRC, there's even footage of the above hapkido vs BJJ. All of it on the net. Hell there's even video of BJJ lossess.

Search via Google or ask for links on rec.martial.arts or www.mma.tv

I get the feeling your interested in aikido, but not sure of whether its the right thing for you. Why not post a little bit more about youreself and your situation so we have something to work with?

Or failing that -

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/martial-art.../preamble.html

Better still (and more fun to boot)

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/martial-art.../preamble.html
my opinions and point of views are just what they are...no one should be offended by them...I didnt even know 6 people put me on their ignore list...it just shows how you childish people can get when others express their point of views and opinions about something...people have to learn this is a messageboard and people can say how they feel about something...some people have made smartass comments to me and do you see me putting them on my ignore lists? no, because I realize this is a messageboard and some people are going to have their own opinions and point of views about aikido or whatever else comes to mind...im not trying to rub people the wrong way, but im speaking how I feel...I noticed some people were calling chad ignorant and im sure that is not what he is trying to come across as...you need people to accept peoples opinions and point of views and not act childish and put them on your ignore list...regardless if someone disagrees with me or not, I still respect everyone on here and im sure not going to act like a child and put someone on my ignore list just because one of their posts rubs me the wrong way...nothing rubs me the wrong way on here because people are going to have different opinions and point of views...I am interested in aikido and I signed up for classes...I dont know if ill stay with it because things change over time, im going to try it out for a few weeks and if I feel that I like it, ill be sticking with it...if not, ill look for another martial art that im interested in...right now, the only martial arts that interest me are aikido, hapkido, shotokan karate...unfortunately, there are no hapkido dojos where I live and I havent checked to see if there are any shotokan karate dojos where I live, but there is an aikido dojo where I live and that is the one I signed up for...I was just asking chad a question, is that against the law?

Last edited by ewodaj : 07-15-2003 at 12:59 PM.
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Old 07-15-2003, 01:31 PM   #42
bob_stra
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Woah, woah....calm down. I didn't put you on any igonore lists. Taint my fault ;-)

I'm jus' saying - responses to your questions are gonna dry up if you keep at it. Which is probably gonna leave a sour taste in your mouth for aikiweb and aikido in general. And that'd be a loss.

There's no crime in asking questions. Please appreciate we get a lot of trolls thru here and I think some folks are lumping you in that catagory.

Replying in specific: -

>people have to learn this is a messageboard >and people can say how they feel about >something

No disagreement here.

>I am interested in aikido and I signed up >for classes...I dont know if ill stay with >it because things change over time

Yeah. Anything in particualar though? Or just not enyoing the aikido there?

>im going to try it out for a few weeks and >if I feel that I like it, ill be sticking >with it

Cool.

>if not, ill look for another martial art >that im interested in...right now, the only >martial arts that interest me are aikido, >hapkido, shotokan karate

Often times (and oddly, mostly with hapkido and karate, esp in my area) the folks don't advertise much. Have you tried university sports clubs, YMCA's etc? Some place are so well hidden it kinda requires you to know a guy who knows a guy. Eg: The place I train at is at the back of a chinese store, in a garage, underground. Good luck finding us in the yellow pages ;-)

> unfortunately, there are no hapkido dojos

If we knew a little of why you were interested in aikido / hapkido, we might be able to recommend a substitute. For example, for mostly striking with some joint locks -

TKD? Tang Soo Doo (sp)? Goju Remnei(karate)? Some styles of JJJ? Kajukenbo? Different types of kung fu?

>there are any shotokan karate dojos where I

FYI Shotokan karate is a fairly "linear" style. (I practiced that for 3yrs). Can't see how it links to hapkido or aikido. Have you then also looked into kickboxing and muay thai (not the same art)

>just asking chad a question, is that against >the law

Yeah. There's a $50 infringement fee coming your way ;-) Ha!

Seriously though, feel free to check to vids out and make your own mind up. Here's one of BJJ Vs Shotokan. Make of it what you will.

http://www.mcdojo.com/dl_goto.asp?id=64

http://www.mcdojo.com/dl.asp

PS: The mcMatrix clip has footage of segal doing *actual* aikido, but is abt 23MB.
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Old 07-15-2003, 02:38 PM   #43
opherdonchin
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There is also a lot of Aikido footage in the 'kung fu fighting' clip. Even some footage of Ueshiba. I guess they don't think very highly of Aikido over there.


Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 07-15-2003, 02:54 PM   #44
ewodaj
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bob, what are you trying to figure out my life? who cares if shotokan karate doesnt link to aikido and hapkido...im interested in it and that is all that matters...stop trying to analize me...what is a troll? you dont have to know why im interested in aikido/hapkido because that is self-explanatory as I mentioned a few times before...to get in shape and learn self-defense...the only korean martial art im interested in is hapkido and thats that...tkd and tsd dont interest me...for some reason, tkd is way overrated and its a sport to me...I dont feel competition in martial arts is right because you learn martial arts to defend yourself as well as other reasons and I feel that competing against others for sport means nothing and it shows no real measure of how good of a martial artist you are because youre just trying to show off and you may be nervous...in a real life situation it is much different and that is where your martial art skills really count for something...
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Old 07-15-2003, 03:06 PM   #45
Dave Miller
 
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Louis,

You came to this forum under the guise of asking questions and seeking information about budo in general, aikido in particular. And yet you have consistantly insisted on bucking against the advice offered and insist on sharing your own opinions instead. It is quite easy to see why folks don't want to answer your questions: you don't seem to want to hear their answers, but rather, you continue to try and impress us with what you know (or think you know).

If you want to study Aikido then do it and then tell us what you are learning. So far, all you have done is talked and talked and talked. Well, talking about Aikido is easy and safe. You don't have to ever see where you might be wrong. Actually studying Aikido is hard and very risky. You might actually find out that you don't realy know what you're talking about.

DAVE

If you're working too hard, you're doing it wrong.
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Old 07-15-2003, 04:49 PM   #46
ewodaj
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Quote:
Dave Miller wrote:
Louis,

You came to this forum under the guise of asking questions and seeking information about budo in general, aikido in particular. And yet you have consistantly insisted on bucking against the advice offered and insist on sharing your own opinions instead. It is quite easy to see why folks don't want to answer your questions: you don't seem to want to hear their answers, but rather, you continue to try and impress us with what you know (or think you know).

If you want to study Aikido then do it and then tell us what you are learning. So far, all you have done is talked and talked and talked. Well, talking about Aikido is easy and safe. You don't have to ever see where you might be wrong. Actually studying Aikido is hard and very risky. You might actually find out that you don't realy know what you're talking about.
youre totally wrong and you have no clue...just because people give me advice does that mean I have to take it? I respect and accept everyones advice here...I dont mind at all hearing peoples answers, so dont take words out of my mouth because you have the wrong idea about me...I stated before im not trying to impress anyone here about what I know...if you pay attention to what I say (I dont really care if you do), you would have known that dave...if you have conflict with me or the things that I say on here be a man about it and pm me about it...im not trying to disrespect anyone here and make them think I know about aikido and they dont and that is what youre making it out to be...I never asked if aikido was safe, so there you go again making your own assumptions up about me saying I said this I said that...aikido is hard and risky I know that, but do not question me anymore because its getting you no where...
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Old 07-15-2003, 06:14 PM   #47
bob_stra
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Quote:
Opher Donchin (opherdonchin) wrote:
There is also a lot of Aikido footage in the 'kung fu fighting' clip. Even some footage of Ueshiba. I guess they don't think very highly of Aikido over there.

Well, some of the folks are kinda stupid there too ;-) Though the "Aikido Mortal Combat" clip is kinda amusing ;-)
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Old 07-15-2003, 06:20 PM   #48
bob_stra
Location: Australia
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 641
Australia
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>Louis Amberg (ewodaj)"]bob, what are you

> trying to figure out my life?

Don't flatter yourself ;-)

>who cares if shotokan karate doesnt link to >aikido and hapkido...

Not me man. Go nuts. You're the one going on about the beauty and fluidity of aikido.

>im interested in it and that is all that >matters...stop trying to analize me

Don't worry, you ain't my type.

LOL analize ;-) Good one.

Have fun ;-)
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Old 07-15-2003, 07:06 PM   #49
sanosuke
Dojo: Seigi Dojo
Location: Jakarta
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 247
Indonesia
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Oooh, I do feel a tense atmosphere here. Come on guys, stop looking for differences because it'll make you away from each other. Look for similarities so that you can train together and exchange knowledge.
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Old 07-15-2003, 07:29 PM   #50
Lee Swerdloff
Dojo: FL aikikai
Location: Fort lauderdale , Fl
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4
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hi

I have seen everything that has been done here under the sun; it is all futility and a chasing of the wind. Ecclesiastes 1:14
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