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Old 07-14-2003, 02:19 PM   #51
Erik
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Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
Yeah. For some reason people talking abject nonsense just rubs me the wrong way.
How appropro considering your commentary.
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Old 07-14-2003, 02:20 PM   #52
ewodaj
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Craig Hocker (kironin) wrote:
and...

Anyone who takes martial arts primarily for self-defense and at the same time is NOT training with a firearm at the shooting range, becoming proficient with a knife and other short range range weapons like an extensible baton is an idiot.

;P

Craig
that is an ignorant statement on your behalf craig...to call someone an idiot for taking martial arts primarily for self-defense reasons is not thinking clearly on your part...we live in a dangerous world and a lot of people see how easily short life can be...now, theres nothing you can do if someone shoots you or something of that nature, but if someone comes up to you and tries to rob you, you can protect yourself and not get yourself robbed or hurt for that matter...aikido will only help you in one way man and that is for self-defense reasons...you think the spiritual aspect of aikido will protect you from getting robbed or mugged on the streets? you should apologize for that comment because there are a lot of people out there that want to see a better tomorrow and learning aikido to defend themselves may be one of the reasons why they will see a better tomorrow because they know they can protect and defend themselves if someone tries to hurt them on the streets, in their own backyard, or some other place...
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Old 07-14-2003, 02:24 PM   #53
Cyrijl
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when i was thinking about taking aikido a ways back, the instructor told me that if i wanted to learn self-defense there were quicker ways than aikido. And that is a simple fact. Self-defense involves danger recognition and usually little more than some punches and kicks, a little groundfighting and knowing when to run. Most of the other stuff is superfluous. And please do not use seagal as an example. Give me a break. I:f you think of him as an exemplar, then you are not really interested in self-defense.

I don't care about becoming a better person which is why i quit aikido. If you can find a school that can teach you how to fight and stresses realistic training then go for it. But if all the training is highly cooperative (which many schools are) then you need to find another art.

Craig is right...train in using a gun or knife...even if you do not carry, part of real self0defense is knowing how to operate offensively and defensively against weapons....and i don't mean a staff

Last edited by Cyrijl : 07-14-2003 at 02:26 PM.

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Old 07-14-2003, 02:47 PM   #54
Dave Miller
 
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Louis Amberg (ewodaj) wrote:
that is an ignorant statement on your behalf craig...to call someone an idiot for taking martial arts primarily for self-defense reasons is not thinking clearly on your part...
Did you even read the entire statement?

DAVE

If you're working too hard, you're doing it wrong.
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Old 07-14-2003, 02:58 PM   #55
Kevin Wilbanks
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Quote:
Erik Haselhofer (Erik) wrote:
How appropro considering your commentary.
What's appropro? A new text-editing software package? Surely you didn't mean apropos. Grossly misspelling a pretentious bon mot in this context would be a seriously ironic faux pas...
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Old 07-14-2003, 03:06 PM   #56
opherdonchin
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Boy,tempers are sure flaring up in this thread. Can we leave the ad hominems at the door? No matter what someone says to or about you in one of these forums, please try to express yourelf with restaint and respect.

Thanks for letting me but in.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 07-14-2003, 03:20 PM   #57
akiy
 
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Quote:
Opher Donchin (opherdonchin) wrote:
Boy,tempers are sure flaring up in this thread. Can we leave the ad hominems at the door? No matter what someone says to or about you in one of these forums, please try to express yourelf with restaint and respect.
Agreed. If you feel the need to attack people on a personal level, then please do so in private.

-- Jun

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Old 07-14-2003, 03:27 PM   #58
ewodaj
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Quote:
Dave Miller wrote:
Did you even read the entire statement?
I did dave and I dont think its wise to call people idiots for taking martial arts primarily for self-defense reasons...I dont knock any other peoples opinions, but that just isnt right to say...
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Old 07-14-2003, 03:28 PM   #59
ewodaj
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Quote:
Opher Donchin (opherdonchin) wrote:
Boy,tempers are sure flaring up in this thread. Can we leave the ad hominems at the door? No matter what someone says to or about you in one of these forums, please try to express yourelf with restaint and respect.

Thanks for letting me but in.
anytime opher...
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Old 07-14-2003, 03:37 PM   #60
Dave Miller
 
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Louis Amberg (ewodaj) wrote:
I did dave and I dont think its wise to call people idiots for taking martial arts primarily for self-defense reasons...I dont knock any other peoples opinions, but that just isnt right to say...
If you read the whole statement then why are you only responding to half of it?

DAVE

If you're working too hard, you're doing it wrong.
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Old 07-14-2003, 03:54 PM   #61
opherdonchin
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I think what Dave is trying to say, Louis, is that he isn't knocking people for wanting to know how to defend themselves. He's just saying that hand-to-hand combat arts alone will not provide a full answer. As a result, he is saying that someone who is interested in self defense but only studies hand-to-hand combat is not really meeting their own needs. In that sense, Dave is not judging their original motivations, just their methods.

I'm not saying I agree with him, or disagree. I'm just trying to make things clear.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 07-14-2003, 04:16 PM   #62
ewodaj
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Tongue

Quote:
Dave Miller wrote:
If you read the whole statement then why are you only responding to half of it?
im just responding to that particular comment dave...if I respond to all of it, youll see 5 paragraphs full of my comments...no need for that...
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Old 07-14-2003, 04:24 PM   #63
ewodaj
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Quote:
Opher Donchin (opherdonchin) wrote:
I think what Dave is trying to say, Louis, is that he isn't knocking people for wanting to know how to defend themselves. He's just saying that hand-to-hand combat arts alone will not provide a full answer. As a result, he is saying that someone who is interested in self defense but only studies hand-to-hand combat is not really meeting their own needs. In that sense, Dave is not judging their original motivations, just their methods.

I'm not saying I agree with him, or disagree. I'm just trying to make things clear.
thank you opher...dave, explain to me if someone is interested in self-defense, but only studies hand-to-hand combat they are not meeting their own needs? hand-to-hand combat to me is self-defense...im not talking about competition, im talking about situations in the streets...I get part of what you say tho dave and I respect you for having your own opinions...what im trying to get across is that since we live in a society that sometimes isnt to good, learning martial arts for defending yourself on the sometimes unsafe street is a good thing...I believe if you can defend yourself no matter what reason(s) you got into martial arts in the first place, you are meeting your own needs...needs in which you must protect yourself for whenever a dangerous/potentially fatal situation arises/happens...
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Old 07-14-2003, 04:24 PM   #64
Erik
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Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
What's appropro? A new text-editing software package? Surely you didn't mean apropos. Grossly misspelling a pretentious bon mot in this context would be a seriously ironic faux pas...
You know I didn't even intend to put that out here. In fact, I didn't even realize I submitted it.
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Old 07-14-2003, 04:28 PM   #65
Dave Miller
 
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Louis Amberg (ewodaj) wrote:
thank you opher...dave, explain to me if someone is interested in self-defense, but only studies hand-to-hand combat they are not meeting their own needs? hand-to-hand combat to me is self-defense...
You'd have to ask Craig, since it's his statement, not mine.

I would guess that what he is suggesting is that hand-to-hand self defense is only part of the picture. If you want to be able to defend yourself well, you need more than just that.

DAVE

If you're working too hard, you're doing it wrong.
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Old 07-14-2003, 04:39 PM   #66
Erik
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Quote:
Dave Miller wrote:
Gosh, Erik, your statement contained a whole lot of "sophisitic nonesense." You accuse Kevin of defining terms in such as way as to show there are more wars and then re-define terms to show there are fewer wars. Perhaps you could dispense with your "aversion to certain claims" and just provide some hard data...
Dave, I'm just having some fun here. If you know anything about Kevin at all you know that he's 'ALWAYS RIGHT' , gets seriously bent over certain things and is the toughest guy out here. Mostly I'm just trolling a bit, particularly after he went on his Christianity / Islam rant.

However, on the original comment regarding more wars. I think it would probably be accurate to say that there are more wars each year based on our arbitrary criteria of what a war is. For instance, I would assume that they looked at the scale of a conflict. Given that there are more people today and the technology for killing them more efficient then, yes, there may well be more wars. I'm not sure that says much though because people have been killing each other since there have been people. Our 'peaceful' native American's were often extremely bloodthirsty and violent.

My personal feeling is that the world and the people in it are probably pretty much the same as they always were.
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Old 07-14-2003, 04:39 PM   #67
ewodaj
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Thumbs down

Quote:
Dave Miller wrote:
You'd have to ask Craig, since it's his statement, not mine.

I would guess that what he is suggesting is that hand-to-hand self defense is only part of the picture. If you want to be able to defend yourself well, you need more than just that.
I agree with craigs comments to a point...
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Old 07-14-2003, 05:34 PM   #68
akiy
 
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A few quick questions for our new-comer, Louis.

How many times have you been physically assaulted "on the street" over the past ten years? How about the past twenty years?

Where are you situated? Which aikido dojo have you taken a look into?

You said you do not have any experience physically training in martial arts -- is this correct?

-- Jun

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Old 07-14-2003, 05:41 PM   #69
ewodaj
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Jun Akiyama (akiy) wrote:
A few quick questions for our new-comer, Louis.

How many times have you been physically assaulted "on the street" over the past ten years? How about the past twenty years?

Where are you situated? Which aikido dojo have you taken a look into?

You said you do not have any experience physically training in martial arts -- is this correct?

-- Jun
ive never been assaulted on the streets ever...ive never had a conflict with anyone on the streets...I looked into an aikido dojo in the city that I live in...I tried out a few martial arts, but I wasnt satisfied with them, so I would still say I really had no long term training in martial arts...what are you getting at tho? I guess I was lucky enough to never get into some sorta conflict with somebody on the streets...
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Old 07-14-2003, 06:05 PM   #70
akiy
 
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Louis Amberg (ewodaj) wrote:
ive never been assaulted on the streets ever...ive never had a conflict with anyone on the streets...
Quote:
what are you getting at tho?
I'm just curious as to why you seem to be so focused on preventing yourself from getting attacked "on the street" which you seem to take as a given when it's statistically very unlikely such would happen.
Quote:
I tried out a few martial arts, but I wasnt satisfied with them, so I would still say I really had no long term training in martial arts...
Also, I was curious as to how you had come to form so many opinions regarding martial arts when you explicitly said in this post that you had "no martial arts training."
Quote:
I looked into an aikido dojo in the city that I live in...
Which dojo? Which city? How many classes did you attend? Are you still training?
Quote:
I guess I was lucky enough to never get into some sorta conflict with somebody on the streets...
I would have to think that luck hardly has much to do with getting into (or, usually, not getting into) a street conflict, but that's just my own experience.

-- Jun

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Old 07-14-2003, 06:18 PM   #71
PeterR
 
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Opher Donchin (opherdonchin) wrote:
This is not my experience.
Now I am really curious and I hope this get's through the static.

Although not clear in my post I was referring to Japan and talking with the people that join Honbu, my group, and just martial arts in general. Most of that was done a couple of years ago when I was quite interested.

[scientific disclaimer]The study population was randomly selected from people I ran into that liked beer.

I don't question your experience but as per my quote.
Quote:
Even today it is rare to see anyone come into a martial arts dojo whose primary interest is learn the schools philosophy.
I stand by it.

In actual fact a pressing need for self defence isn't exactly high on the list either. As my Isralie Army Ranger sempai used to say - Aikido's great but if you want self defense get a gun.

Right up there is an interest to do a group activity where you can exercise and not be run ragged and meet interesting people. This is the I hate soccer crowd.

Next on the list is my friend wanted to do/or is doing and he dragged me along. This is the damm I wish I had done this earlier crowd.

I am in the third group - I was interested in combatives. Did the boxing, got the headaches, liked the joint locks. There are a whole range of people in this group from the generally passive to the [let's rock the house] adrenalin junkies.

I have met a few people who like the Do. They do the whole works Shado, Chado, Budo, etc.

I have yet to meet anyone in Japan who was inspired by Ueshiba M.'s philosophy and because of that decided to take Aikido.

I know one or two that were looking at various budo to begin with and choose Aikido for the above reason but that is not the same thing.

And I will say again that the reasons for long term training in Budo gets very complex and for some may involve Ueshiba M.'s particular brand of philosophy. My reasons for staying involve the reasons I joined in the first place and a growing attachment to the non-Aikido specific - Do.

Last edited by PeterR : 07-14-2003 at 06:23 PM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-14-2003, 07:06 PM   #72
ewodaj
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Jun Akiyama (akiy) wrote:
I'm just curious as to why you seem to be so focused on preventing yourself from getting attacked "on the street" which you seem to take as a given when it's statistically very unlikely such would happen.

Also, I was curious as to how you had come to form so many opinions regarding martial arts when you explicitly said in this post that you had "no martial arts training."

Which dojo? Which city? How many classes did you attend? Are you still training?

I would have to think that luck hardly has much to do with getting into (or, usually, not getting into) a street conflict, but that's just my own experience.

-- Jun
jun, im lucky I guess...I cant say that it will happen to me or not, but its very possible given the time of day and where you are...you dont have to be an expert in martial arts to form an opinion about them jun...I read a lot and im not some bookworm that tries to prove to everyone he knows about martial arts...I just signed up for classes recently...there is no telling if ill even stick with aikido...ill see if I like it and if I do, ill stick with it, if not than ill move onto another martial art that im interested in...
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Old 07-14-2003, 08:33 PM   #73
Kevin Wilbanks
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Erik Haselhofer (Erik) wrote:
Given that there are more people today and the technology for killing them more efficient then, yes, there may well be more wars. I'm not sure that says much though because people have been killing each other since there have been people....

My personal feeling is that the world and the people in it are probably pretty much the same as they always were.
I have to admit that you're right! Not difficult, since this was precisely my original point. I never said that people were getting worse. More people = more wars. However, if people were evolving or progressing to less violent modes of being, that wouldn't be the case: there would be less wars or the same amount of wars. Our hellish jihad and crusade-ridden future isn't going to be a product of humans de-evolving, it's just bad luck, historical happenstance. This brief window of democratic states, middle classes, free speech, gay rights and the like that we enjoy now is just extraordinary good luck.
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Old 07-14-2003, 09:10 PM   #74
Erik
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Peter, more or less I would agree with your statement. People come to this art for a lot of the reasons you mentioned. No question about it and it's one of my small pet peeves in the art. Most people are not here to be great warriors or great spiritual beings. Sometimes folks forget about that.

However, I can tell you that many, at least here in California and I suspect elsewhere, show up precisely because of the philosophy. I would go so far as to say it's the prime mover in some places I've been. Personally, I showed up without a clue about the philosophy but I've met far too many people over the years who are here because of it.
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Old 07-14-2003, 09:15 PM   #75
Erik
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Kevin, I think I have a bit more hope than you but we'll have to see what happens.
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