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Old 07-11-2003, 04:22 PM   #26
Eric Joyce
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Louis Quote:

well, I already do know the answer to this question eric, but im curious to see what you all think...

If you know the answer, it doesn't matter what people think my friend. Just do it and enjoy.

Eric Joyce
Otake Han Doshin Ryu Jujutsu
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Old 07-11-2003, 04:23 PM   #27
Dave Miller
 
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Quote:
Chad Emerson (C. Emerson) wrote:
If fighting is all thats important, than that is a sign of a person who has not evolved much.
So are you suggesting that as the human race evolves that we should grow out of violence? That is an oft-repeated notion that has little basis in fact, IMHO. The notion that physical confrontation is somehow base or "animalistic" is more than just a bit judgemental, especially coming from a martial artist.

DAVE

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Old 07-11-2003, 07:06 PM   #28
ewodaj
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Quote:
Eric Joyce wrote:
Louis Quote:

well, I already do know the answer to this question eric, but im curious to see what you all think...

If you know the answer, it doesn't matter what people think my friend. Just do it and enjoy.
very true eric, but I like to hear other peoples opinions...I will do it!!! thanks for you input eric...
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Old 07-12-2003, 07:20 AM   #29
C. Emerson
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All I'm saying is that fighting/self defense is only one facet of the martial arts. Branch out learn to appreciate all of the different sides. I work on trying to be a better person. The internal side, takes a life time to learn. Do you think that o'Sensei would say that focusing exclusively on fighting is the direction that he wishes that you go?
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Old 07-12-2003, 12:17 PM   #30
Dave Miller
 
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Quote:
Chad Emerson (C. Emerson) wrote:
All I'm saying is that fighting/self defense is only one facet of the martial arts. Branch out learn to appreciate all of the different sides. I work on trying to be a better person. The internal side, takes a life time to learn. Do you think that o'Sensei would say that focusing exclusively on fighting is the direction that he wishes that you go?
Are you suggesting that he would want to dictate to us why we practiced Aikido and try and get us to do it differently?

We all come to Aikido for different reasons. In most cases, one person's reasons are neither better nor worse than another's, they're just different.

DAVE

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Old 07-12-2003, 09:27 PM   #31
Charles Hill
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I think that learning Aikido mainly for self defense (or any other martial art) is like taking up hard core body building so you can open stuck jars of olives. Sure it'll help out, but you'd really be wasting your time.

Charles
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Old 07-13-2003, 09:49 AM   #32
C. Emerson
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Dear Dave,

Huh? This is a message board, we share opinions and knowledge. I'm not suggesting anything to you personally.

This board can be bizarre at times. It's for sharing information. But when someone doesn't exactly agree. This turns into a -I'm right, your wrong.

Loosen up and enjoy some diversity.
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Old 07-13-2003, 12:12 PM   #33
Dave Miller
 
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Quote:
Chad Emerson (C. Emerson) wrote:
Dear Dave,

Huh? This is a message board, we share opinions and knowledge. I'm not suggesting anything to you personally.

This board can be bizarre at times. It's for sharing information. But when someone doesn't exactly agree. This turns into a -I'm right, your wrong.

Loosen up and enjoy some diversity.
That's exactly what I was trying to say to you, Chad. It's one thing to say, "My opinion is thus and such." It's another thing to say that someone's motivations for studying Aikido are lesser than yours, which is what I have been reading from you posts. If I have been misreading them then I am open to being corrected.

DAVE

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Old 07-13-2003, 01:29 PM   #34
ewodaj
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everyone should respect each others opinion here...
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Old 07-13-2003, 02:19 PM   #35
Charles Hill
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Quote:
Dave Miller wrote:
So are you suggesting that as the human race evolves that we should grow out of violence? That is an oft-repeated notion that has little basis in fact, IMHO. The notion that physical confrontation is somehow base or "animalistic" is more than just a bit judgemental, especially coming from a martial artist.
Dave,

That "oft-repeated notion" is the whole basis to what O'Sensei taught. It is clear from his own words that he believed this completely. I personally disagree with your contention that it has little basis in fact, but the important thing is that if one doesn't agree with the idea, one is clearly not doing the Founder's Aikido. Of course, this doesn't mean automatically that what that person is doing is bad, but it is different. And that should be made clear.

Chad wrote, "Do you think that o'Sensei would say that focusing exclusively on fighting is the direction that he wishes that you go?"

According to Terry Dobson, an uchi deshi to the Founder, O'Sensei expressly forbade fighting. Apparently some of the deshi broke that rule, but the Founder's intention as to what he wanted his students to focus on is clear.

I find it interesting that a non-Aikidoist is pointing this out to an Aikidoist.

Charles
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Old 07-13-2003, 07:11 PM   #36
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Charles Hill wrote:
Apparently some of the deshi broke that rule, but the Founder's intention as to what he wanted his students to focus on is clear.
Yeah Charles - but then he did ask (apparently with a glint in his eye) whether they won or not.

Pretty well all Budo (and that includes Koryu) are as much into self developement as self defence or fighting. But why do the young men come? Even today it is rare to see anyone come into a martial arts dojo whose primary interest is learn the schools philosophy. The question than becomes why do they stay and practice for many years. I feel that at that point the richness and depth of Budo training has made itself felt.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-13-2003, 08:00 PM   #37
Kevin Wilbanks
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Quote:
Charles Hill wrote:
That "oft-repeated notion" is the whole basis to what O'Sensei taught. It is clear from his own words that he believed this completely. I personally disagree with your contention that it has little basis in fact, but the important thing is that if one doesn't agree with the idea, one is clearly not doing the Founder's Aikido. Of course, this doesn't mean automatically that what that person is doing is bad, but it is different. And that should be made clear.
I must not do Aikido then, because I think the idea that humans are actually outgrowing or outevolving violence is absurd. Statistically speaking, worldwide, there are more wars every year than the year before. You can see some of the messy stats at Jimmy Carter's website: http://www.cartercenter.org/

I think it would be nice if it were true that people are becoming more enlightened and less violent, but it just ain't happening. In terms of the future, growth rates promise a massive predominance of hardcore christian and islamic populations in the third world, and probably the onset of an era of religious states. Combine this with massively larger populations and resource pressures in general... you know the rest.

As far as the term 'evolution' goes in this context, that's even more problematic. These days, virtually everyone survives long enough to breed. What survival mechanisms are supposed to associate non-violent propensities with the propagation of genes and violent ones with untimely death or infertility? Off the top of my head, I'd say the selection pressures are more likely the opposite: the kind of people who have the luxury of enlightened thinking and pacifist philosophizing are mostly middle class or higher in industrialized countries. This demographic is precisely the least prolific in terms of birth rates...

Last edited by Kevin Wilbanks : 07-13-2003 at 08:03 PM.
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Old 07-13-2003, 09:20 PM   #38
Erik
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Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
I must not do Aikido then, because I think the idea that humans are actually outgrowing or outevolving violence is absurd. Statistically speaking, worldwide, there are more wars every year than the year before. You can see some of the messy stats at Jimmy Carter's website: http://www.cartercenter.org/
I call BS. I postulate that more people on this planet are not at war, hence living in peace, than ever before.
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Old 07-13-2003, 11:14 PM   #39
ewodaj
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anyone that says they dont take martial arts for self-defense reasons is a big fat liar...I signed up for aikido for self-defense reasons mainly and no one has a right to knock me for doing it...I could careless about the spiritual aspect of aikido...I learned how to do acupuncture and all that stuff years ago...you think they teach police officers, etc aikido or any other martial art to be spiritual? no, they teach it to them, so that they know self-defense...if you look at all martial arts, the main purpose of them is to make you a better fighter/person just in case a dangerous situation arises and you need to defend yourself...
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Old 07-13-2003, 11:40 PM   #40
Kevin Wilbanks
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Quote:
Erik Haselhofer (Erik) wrote:
I call BS. I postulate that more people on this planet are not at war, hence living in peace, than ever before.
Gimme a break. If you want to apply some sophistical logic... let's see. Take a country, say Iraq. There's a bit less than 150,000 US forces there, and the Iraqi army prior to conquest totalled around 400,000. Total population of Iraq: 25,000,000. So, out of the total population, only 2% of them are actually "at war", so it's not really a war zone after all. It's just a marginal problem that a small proportion of the population is facing... like, say, scabies. Whew, what a relief!
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Old 07-14-2003, 07:16 AM   #41
justinm
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I train in Yoshinkan aikido. I don't think I have ever heard a Yoshinkan instructor talk about becoming a 'better' person, or about any form of spiritual or moral development. Ever. I have read that occassionally (Shioda, for instance) but never heard it in a dojo.

I have heard instructors say things like 'bury them!' often.

One of the students in the dojo was telling me last week that his sole reason for doing aikido was self defence. He has been training for about 7 years, I think.

Perhaps Yoshinkan aikido is generally more focused on fighting or self defence than other styles. It is still high on my priorities afer more than 10 years. Other yoshinkan students care to comment?

Justin McCarthy
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Old 07-14-2003, 07:24 AM   #42
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A follow-up comment. In my experience, aikidoka do not display a greater sense of morality or spirituality on average than any other group of people. This implies to me that we are kidding ourselves if we think aikido is the path to achieve this.

I doubt that there is any less conflict on these forums than any other open forums. If aikido helps us develop or evolve, where is the evidence?

Justin

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Old 07-14-2003, 07:49 AM   #43
opherdonchin
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Sigh. And here are some of my opinions:
Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
Even today it is rare to see anyone come into a martial arts dojo whose primary interest is learn the schools philosophy.
This is not my experience.
Quote:
Louis Amberg wrote:
anyone that says they dont take martial arts for self-defense reasons is a big fat liar...
I don't take martial arts for self defense.
Quote:
Louis Amberg wrote:
if you look at all martial arts, the main purpose of them is to make you a better fighter/person just in case a dangerous situation arises and you need to defend yourself...
It is the daily effect on my life that makes more difference to me (and most of the people I know who train) than any hypothetical situation that may never arise.
Quote:
Justin McCarthy wrote:
I have heard instructors say things like 'bury them!' often.
Ouch. I'm glad I've never heard instructors say things like that.
Quote:
Justin McCarthy wrote:
Perhaps Yoshinkan aikido is generally more focused on fighting or self defence than other styles.
It certainly seems that way to me.
Quote:
Justin McCarthy wrote:
In my experience, aikidoka do not display a greater sense of morality or spirituality on average than any other group of people.
I could suggest that this reflects the focus of your dojo, as you mentioned earlier. On the other hand, I can't say that I've found Aikidoka to be particularly "spiritual" or "moral." Perhaps slightly more "present," but I suspect I'd find that in Karateka as well. Maybe slightly more "gentle," although that was certainly true in my experience for oarsmen as well. This seems like an interesting enough question to me that I'm copying this snippet over to start a new thread.
Quote:
Justin McCarthy wrote:
This implies to me that we are kidding ourselves if we think aikido is the path to achieve this.
It's certainly been part of my path to achieving a more comfortable and balanced approach to the world. I'm pretty sure I'm not kidding myself about this, but how would I convince you?

Last edited by opherdonchin : 07-14-2003 at 07:54 AM.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 07-14-2003, 08:39 AM   #44
justinm
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I'm more than happy to take your word for it, Opher!

My (poorly made) point is that the same could be said by students of gardening, music, interior design and many other activities, however I think that aikidoka often state this as the primary reason for their study, unlike these other activities. And in my experience I have not seen any evidence that aikido achieves this any better than those, and this includes my time as a ki aikido and aikikai student as well as my more recent yoshinkan training.

I have no doubt that aikido helps individuals tackle their own demons. I'm not convinced it is better at this than other self-discovery activities.

The main difference that I see in people that train in aikido vs those that don't, is that they are better at aikido.

I'll now transfer over to your new thread!

Justin McCarthy
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Old 07-14-2003, 09:14 AM   #45
Dave Miller
 
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Quote:
Louis Amberg (ewodaj) wrote wrote:
anyone that says they dont take martial arts for self-defense reasons is a big fat liar...
Quote:
Opher Donchin (opherdonchin) wrote:
I don't take martial arts for self defense.
I knew you were a big fat liar, Opher.

The thing that Louis needs to learn is that reading books and such doesn't equate the years of collective experience that many of us have who post. That's ok. After he spends a few months on the mat, he'll begin to learn how much he doesn't know.


DAVE

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Old 07-14-2003, 09:56 AM   #46
Erik
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Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
Gimme a break. If you want to apply some sophistical logic... let's see. Take a country, say Iraq. There's a bit less than 150,000 US forces there, and the Iraqi army prior to conquest totalled around 400,000. Total population of Iraq: 25,000,000. So, out of the total population, only 2% of them are actually "at war", so it's not really a war zone after all. It's just a marginal problem that a small proportion of the population is facing... like, say, scabies. Whew, what a relief!
Guess I struck a nerve.

Kevin, I have an extreme aversion to certain types of claims and claiming that we are fighting more wars than ever before doesn't mean much by itself. This type of claim is almost meaningless and easily tweaked. If you don't like the results just redefine what a war is, pick a different starting point or skip over the fact that we have more people than ever before. Given all of that I figured that there are more people than ever before in the world and since most of them are not at war then we probably have more people living in peace than ever before.

It's the Golden Age of Peace.
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Old 07-14-2003, 01:55 PM   #47
kironin
 
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Quote:
Justin McCarthy (justinm) wrote:
I train in Yoshinkan aikido. I don't think I have ever heard a Yoshinkan instructor talk about becoming a 'better' person, or about any form of spiritual or moral development. Ever. I have read that occassionally (Shioda, for instance) but never heard it in a dojo.

I have heard instructors say things like 'bury them!' often.
Which is why thank goodness, there are different aikido organizations with different goals.



Craig
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Old 07-14-2003, 02:03 PM   #48
kironin
 
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Quote:
Louis Amberg (ewodaj) wrote:
anyone that says they dont take martial arts for self-defense reasons is a big fat liar...I signed up for aikido for self-defense reasons mainly and no one has a right to knock me for doing it...I could careless about the spiritual aspect of aikido..
and...

Anyone who takes martial arts primarily for self-defense and at the same time is NOT training with a firearm at the shooting range, becoming proficient with a knife and other short range range weapons like an extensible baton is an idiot.

;P

Craig
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Old 07-14-2003, 02:12 PM   #49
Kevin Wilbanks
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Quote:
Erik Haselhofer (Erik) wrote:
Guess I struck a nerve.
Yeah. For some reason people talking abject nonsense just rubs me the wrong way.
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Old 07-14-2003, 02:13 PM   #50
Dave Miller
 
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Quote:
Erik Haselhofer (Erik) wrote:
Guess I struck a nerve.

Kevin, I have an extreme aversion to certain types of claims and claiming that we are fighting more wars than ever before doesn't mean much by itself. This type of claim is almost meaningless and easily tweaked. If you don't like the results just redefine what a war is, pick a different starting point or skip over the fact that we have more people than ever before. Given all of that I figured that there are more people than ever before in the world and since most of them are not at war then we probably have more people living in peace than ever before.

It's the Golden Age of Peace.
Gosh, Erik, your statement contained a whole lot of "sophisitic nonesense." You accuse Kevin of defining terms in such as way as to show there are more wars and then re-define terms to show there are fewer wars. Perhaps you could dispense with your "aversion to certain claims" and just provide some hard data...

DAVE

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