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Old 07-03-2003, 08:02 AM   #26
Kevin Wilbanks
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Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
Most importantly, one can be balanced and powerful on one foot or two, and during the transfer of weight, the power of the dropping weight is able to be harnessed and transmitted horizontally - not just in the direction of horizontal center travel. In a calf-powered quasi leap, if one is on the upward arc, there is little power, and on other side of the arc, there is almost no power available to transmit in any direction other than the direction of the leap.
Looking back, I don't think this is quite right. The problem with a leaping step is basically that nage's body is not solidly connected to the ground, therefore one is limited during that space of time to pushing, pulling, or whatever with the airborne mass of the body. If the other object is of similar or larger mass, guess what happens? With solid foot planting, one can use oneself as a gravitational conduit, harnessing the weight of the earth. Even boxers who dance around on their toes most of the time, plant their heel(s) at key moments in order to land solid punches... Ali knocking out Liston which many thought was fake comes to mind.
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Old 07-03-2003, 09:46 AM   #27
Steven
 
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Quote:
aubrey bannah wrote:
http://www.bekkoame.ne.jp/~yoshinryu...shinryoku.html
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Old 07-03-2003, 10:39 AM   #28
C. Emerson
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Kevin, right on.
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Old 07-18-2003, 10:06 AM   #29
Ron Tisdale
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Good post Steven! There is an interesting coincidence with the "internal" arts of China...some of those proponants also speak of not getting the power from planting and pushing off of the back heel.

RT

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Old 07-25-2003, 07:21 PM   #30
Peter Malecek
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Justin,

In answer to your original question, at the Yoshinkan we were taught to maintain a flat back foot in both Kamae and during movements involving extension eg. Hiriki No Yosei ichi (Jun sp?).

At the time this seemed all but impossible to achieve while at the same time maintaining the correct hip position (Note: I was convinced that Chida sensei had a different anatomy to that possessed by us mere morons... oops... I ment mortals ). However, over the years my back foot seems to have adapted and now I too end extensions with 70% of my weight on the front foot, hips square with a flat back foot, as instructed (and just think that only tok me 14 years to master - 17 years if you count the 3 years poor Kimeda sensei had the misfortune to have me as a student).

Like a lot of things that we do in Yoshinkai, the flat back foot seems (at least to me) to be a learning aide in that by trying to end in a solid position with a flat braced back foot we practice,/strive for/and may even achieve, balance throughout the technique (but of course I could be wrong).

As for the rest of the thread, I will now go back and read it thuroughly. I've been away for a while (yet another country to live and practice in). I've missed you guys.

Pete

Peter
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Old 07-26-2003, 02:08 PM   #31
NagaBaba
 
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I'm not big fanatic of Yoshinkan stance and flat back foot. While it is good for very beginners in static exercises, in dynamic practice and particularly in randori one simply can't use all mechanic of creating power.

If you throw somebody for real, you discover that you must use your hips in the way that back foot push and hips turn and that mechanism create power that is transmitted to attacker. However, if your back foot stay flat, angle of the turning hips is limited, and you can't use maximum capacity of your body. Also direction of back foot is not the same that direction of your center - so this is not unified body.

In order to develop maximum power from hips, one must follow a turn of his hips by turning his back foot. This will raise wheel and will add more power cos not only angel of turning hips will be larger, but also back foot will create additional power by working as a kind of spring. In fact it will be only one small part of spring created by unified body where all relaxed joints will work together in the same direction.

This position is very easy preserved in dynamic practice; in fact boxers do it alike.

Nagababa

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Old 07-27-2003, 01:54 AM   #32
aikidodragongio
 
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I beg to differ. I've felt a lot of energy being exerted in using this Kamae. My sensei taught us that one of the keys to Yoshinkai was realizing that you start in Kamae and you end in Kamae. As for the extention of your aiki, it comes (I know, it sounds cliche but...) from within. Even when I practice in the Aikikai dojo I find myself coming back to the Kihon Dosa that I learned in Yoshinkai and to this day it has not failed me.

In using Yoshinkai Kamae I can tenkan a lot easier. Also, as Pete Malacek stated, after studying this "style" for so long it does become natural to place that weight forward. Lastly, in randori and in Jiwu-waza it is still possible to maintain this kamae naturally and use it with its full potential. Just look at the videos which show Chida Sensei or those with Utada. You will see the force with which they execute throws and all ending in Kamae. Others may beg to differ just as I have.

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Old 07-27-2003, 05:34 PM   #33
Peter Malecek
Dojo: Sei Aikido Dojo (Prague)
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Szczepan

You don't have to be a fanatic Yoshinkan person (there are enough of them already)but it never hurts to look at what other folks are doing (afterall Aikido is Aikido is Aikido if its done well).

I think you will find that far from being good only for beginners in static excercises maintaining balance is key (no pun intended)during dynamic moves, since you want to be the the axis around which the unstable thing (i.e. uke) spins. Please note that this does not mean you are standing still, since you may very well be moving, but rather that you are stable and thus in control relative to uke who is unstable (this is not a reference to uke's mental state although there have been times .....). As far as I can remember most of the stuff that was stressed at the Yoshinkan was aimed at developing balance during techniques be it during kihon dosa, kihon waza, or ju waza. By being balanced you have a stable base from which to deliver force, be it force you generate or uke's force that you redirect.

Although I confess I didn't completely follow the description in your post, there is one point you make that is interesting. You may find that by training to bring your hips around with a flat back foot, you can increase you flexibility and thus the arc over which you can deliver the power from your thighs, buttocks and hips precisely because it is so difficult to do at first (this at least has been my experience).

As for throwing for real we do it all the time, come on over and give it a try (although I'm not completely sure, your name sounds like we're not that far apart, at least geographically speaking).

All the Best

Pete

PS.

The invitation is open to anyone out there who is passing through Prague this summer.

Peter
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Old 07-28-2003, 08:51 AM   #34
justinm
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I feel in Yoshinkan we focus more in the down direction, and also focus more in the stability of the base than in the amount of horizontal power we can generate from hip movement (hip rotation being primarily in the horizontal direction). It is more common to hear talk of a strong posture through the legs than maximising the generation of power through the rotation of the hips. The basic yoshinkan kamae does not emphasise the use of hip movement to generate power (after all, the hips should be square to the front) in the same way as aikikai.

The most obvious example of this that I see is sokumen iriminage/kokyonage. In yoshinkan aikido the hips should be square to the front for the final throw, with the power coming from the legs, feet and weight drop - the hips move forward and down. However in aikikai, I think the hips are used much more in a horizontal rotation to do a more projected throw, with much less down direction. Receiving these throws can be quite different for uke.

Justin McCarthy
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Old 08-03-2003, 04:36 PM   #35
Peter Malecek
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Justin,

I agree with what you've written as far as strong posture etc., but don't forget that some of the kihon dosa movements (e.g Hiriki No Yosei Ni) involve significant horizontal rotation. Although the rotation involves the hips remaining square with the shoulders the hips (and shoulders) should come around 180 degrees during each half/phase of the movement. Remember how tough this was to do at first, i.e. before you developed flexibility in your hips.

As for Kamae, the flat back foot hips and shoulders square position also tends to be difficult for beginners who have not developed flexibility in the hips ( I was once told that one of the reasons I couldn't do it naturally, i.e slip into it without adjusting, was that I still lacked flexibility in the hips - the other reason involved something about having the attention span of a small bug.....).

Flexibility in the hips allows you to take advantage of the power generated by the large muscle groups in the legs when executing techniques(it also allows you to look cool on the dance floor - talk about the additional benfits of martial arts training !!!).



Think about the end to many Yoshinkai throws (i.e . hips and shoulders square, hips low with back foot extended). Imagine the loss of power if you didn't/couldn't hold the hips square(a problem if you're not flexible enough) - all that power generated could not be applied.

Anyhow enough tech. talk. This stuff is alot easier to do than it is to describe. Justin, I travel to the UK quite a bit due to work, where is the Shinwakai? As long as its' near London I'd love to drop by when I'm next in town on business (too much work not enough aikido is not the way I want to go through life).

Regards

Peter
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Old 08-04-2003, 12:00 AM   #36
Abasan
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Justin,

I always thought that Sokumen nage was akin to a lunge with a blade/spear more then a reverse clothsline type.

It felt like i use less energy that way.

So in yoshinkai you actually drop down with your body weight? What if you were short and light? And your uke is tall and erm heavy?

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 08-04-2003, 09:47 AM   #37
justinm
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Hi Peter,

I still have that hip flexibility challenge!

We are in Maidenhead on Tuesdays and Windsor on Mondays, both around 40 minutes train out of west London. You are welcome anytime, if that is not too far for you. Drop me a note next time you are in the UK and have a spare evening! Unfortunately the chances of me getting back to Prague in the near future are slim, but if I do....

Justin

Justin McCarthy
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Old 08-04-2003, 10:27 AM   #38
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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I've noticed that smaller people can often get as great an effect from the sharpness of their movement...Indeed, that sharpness and precision seems to generate a more powerfull throw than larger, more muscular people do.

The more important point is that at the time you apply your power, uke should already be off-balance, so not much physical effort should be needed anyway. I don't know how common this is, but on many throws I don't think just straight down, but rather forward and down on an angle. The force of the throw goes in a diagonal line into the ground behind uke. There are some throws involving turning (opening the body) and going to one or two knees down where the drop is almost vertical. Shomenuchi aikinage is a good example of this. I do love the look on uke's face looking up at you the first time they experience this...

Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-04-2003, 10:33 AM   #39
justinm
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I think aikikai practitioners tend to use more of a 'whiplash' movement through the hips to generate power, whereas yoshinkan practitioners tend to use a direct hip entry, with the legs providing a more direct power.

There is a strong downward movement in sokumen iriminage in its basic form, however only applied once uke is already controlled and their balance taken. I'd compare that movement more to a sword cut than a lunge, however there are several movements that make up the technique so it is difficult to discuss online, as we might be talking about different moments. There is a hip turn as part of the balance taking, however this is not to throw uke but to place them in a position where the body drop can be applied effectively . That hip turn is also synchronised with uke trying to recover following the first attack, so there is little hip power needed. The ukemi is pretty much straight down in a rear breakfall.

Size is only relevent in the opening of the technique - once they are at your height, it doesn't matter what that is. I'd even argue that a lunge requires more strength than a vertical cut, where gravity can do most of the work.

However, I would agree that at a more advanced level, I have seen sokumen iriminage applied more as a lunge, with more leg power used to take uke in an upward direction, rather than relying on uke's recovery for this, although this is usually for a specific application (eg entering under a shomen attack). Even in this case, though, there is little lateral power applied in the actual throw.

& I didn't plan to write so much!!

Justin McCarthy
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Old 08-04-2003, 10:38 AM   #40
justinm
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Hi Ron - it took so long for me to get the last contribution out that we crossed somewhere in the ether.

I'd agree with what you said about the diagonal direction...

Justin

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Old 08-04-2003, 12:20 PM   #41
Ron Tisdale
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Good posts Justin,

Who do you train with in the UK? Some good yoshinkan folks there, David Rubens and others. I don't see David online much anymore, if you run into him, tell him I said hello...

I agree with you about the whipping motion of the hips in some aikikai schools. Very powerfull, but a bit different from what I ususally do. I did notice that overall flexibility adds to that power...Donovan Waite is a good example of this. Man, can he whip!

I have used that kind of power in sokomen iriminage, but it feels more like pushing than whipping when I do it. With a good uke, you can put them horizontal, and *then* do the down...quite a nice throw.

Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-04-2003, 03:44 PM   #42
justinm
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I've trained with David Rubens a few times, mainly at seminars, but I doubt he'd recognise me! I'll certainly pass on your hello though, next time I see him. My first yoshinkan experience was with Tony Yates, although most of my training has been with the Kenshinkai crowd (Garry Masters, Malcolm Crawford, Roger Bish, Terry Harrison), as well as my own instructor, Jack Poole.

It sure is fun when you get a good uke!

Justin McCarthy
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Old 08-06-2003, 06:48 AM   #43
Nathan Pereira
Dojo: Joseikan Jui Jitsu/MMA/Aikido Rickmansworth, Herts
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Peter Malecek,

If you are ever in London you are welcome to come and train at our dojo. My teacher is Paul Stephens a 5th Dan ex-hombu instructor. We try to follow the Aikido of Takeno Sensei and my teacher and a couple of students have just returned from a five week trip to his dojo for the second time. We just happen to have another guy named Peter from your neck of the woods as well so if he is typical of your countryman it will be a pleasure to have you.

Let me know and I came give you the exact class times and location.

Cheers

Nathan


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Old 08-24-2003, 05:25 PM   #44
Peter Malecek
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Justin,Nathan,

Thanks for the invite.

I think I may have trained with Paul Stephens back when I first came to the UK from Japan. If he's the guy I'm thinking of he was just about to go over to Japan (it was back in 1991).

Takeno is a great teacher and gifted aikidoka/budoka. Rob Mustard took me up to Yamanashi to get thrashed by Takeno right after I got my shodan (something about learning humility - I don't remember much about humility being taught, but there sure was a lot of hands on work with gravity).

I still get a kick out of looking at pictures from the old days, seeing the precise kihon dosa being done by people who where 5th/6th dan and above, clearly world class aikidoka who understood that, "you start with the basics and end with the basics".

I'm next in London in October, I'll be sure to look you guys up.

Sorry for getting off topic Jun, all this Yoshinkai talk made me get all misty.

Peter
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Old 09-02-2003, 02:46 AM   #45
Nathan Pereira
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Peter,

Paul did indeed go out to Japan in about '91 and stayed for nearly 5 years.I remember it well as that was the year I started. He knows R. Mustard very well too. Never met him myself but Paul talks his Aikido up big time. I think after getting battered senseless by Takano Sensei so much he has learnt a thing or too. Getting thrashed in Yamanashi by Takano sensei sounds about par for the course. Believe it or not but Takano sensei has got even better and now gives even more of a thrashing, but you can't help but get up smiling [if you get up].

We start at a new dojo in October so if you decide to visit I can send you directions.

Nathan


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