Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Open Discussions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-27-2003, 11:12 AM   #1
ikkainogakusei
Location: All over CA
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 137
Offline
M Lee: 'all lust-bad' J Tao: 'even lust4life?

For anyone interested in this topic, it started in the Aikido and Libido thread. I questioned Mike Lee on his statement that all lust is bad. We have continued the discussion but it seems that it has run shy of the original topic, so I have started this new thread.

synopsis
ML: 'All lust is bad'
JT: 'even a lust for life?'
ML: 'Lust for life makes no sense, it is supposed to be 'zest for life' The wise know the difference, the ignorant do not'
JT:'Google finds 871,000 references for 'lust for life', 144,000 references for 'zest for life'. Dictionary.com uses 'lust for life' in definition of 'lust'.

Hopefully we can play over here and not hold the other thread hostage. Come play Mike.


"To educate a man in mind, and not in morals, is to educate a menace to society." ~Theodore Roosevelt
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2003, 02:03 PM   #2
Chuck Clark
 
Chuck Clark's Avatar
Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Monroe, Washington
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,134
United_States
Offline
One person's lust is another person's zest.

Unless you can feel these people's "hearts" when they're using these terms, then it's just words and a semantics debate that ends up with everyone kinda chasing their tails, in my opinion.

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2003, 02:29 PM   #3
Alfonso
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 346
Offline
it's incredible though, how much discord is caused by semantics.

Alfonso Adriasola
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2003, 02:45 PM   #4
ikkainogakusei
Location: All over CA
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 137
Offline
Quote:
C.E. Clark (Chuck Clark) wrote:
One person's lust is another person's zest.

Unless you can feel these people's "hearts" when they're using these terms, then it's just words and a semantics debate that ends up with everyone kinda chasing their tails, in my opinion.
Agreed. I think you're right, and I started out attempting to get a better understanding, or hoping to find some level of 'new-facet' as it were. Words to me have much potential for understanding the different hues of states of being or whathaveyou. I may have fallen into the wrong path for this discussion. I just feel challenged by absolutisms. What I mean to say is; when someone puts out a limitation, I want to discuss potentiality. It has caused me to get a little frustrated with extremists and black&whiters. After having looked at Mr. Lee's profile and that he has been 'ignored' by two others makes me feel like this is probably not going to produce growth however.


"To educate a man in mind, and not in morals, is to educate a menace to society." ~Theodore Roosevelt
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2003, 07:19 AM   #5
Kevin Wilbanks
Location: Seattle/Southern Wisconsin
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 788
Offline
If you want some absolutism, I'd be more likely to say the opposite: all lust is good. Lust, desire, erotic energy... this is what put us here. It's the essence of the urge to connect and create.

If you want to understand where M. Lee is coming from, I don't think you'd have too much trouble finding a Christian or Buddhist theologian with something more thought-provoking to say than 'The wise know the difference, the ignorant do not'. From what I have seen in that discussion and others, he's just toeing the age old religious line of shame, guilt, and fear about our bodies, natural urges, sex... even desire itself. I think your question about life is right on the money: why do major religions often condemn getting wrapped up in sensuality, pleasure, passion - things of the here and now - in favor of some abstract value pronouncements, another world, or "afterlife"? The zest/lust distinction sounds like evasive sophistry to me.

My idea about this is that it's about fear and copping out. I can't count how many times I've seen the same dynamic on a small personal scale. Someone puts themselves out there, takes a risk, gets hurt, and comes away from the experience afraid to take a similar risk again to avoid the possibility of getting hurt again. Take that position of reluctance to take a risk, dress it up in a bunch of fancy rationalizations and rituals, and you've got buddhism - the essence of which is to eliminate, to uproot all desire from one's life to avoid suffering. Christianity seems to focus more on control and repression in terms of sex, which I think is more complicated (hence more twisted).

Personally, I prefer a Shakespearian take on humanity and life: messy, passionate, funny, heartbreaking, incomprehensible. I want to amplify my desires, get totally immersed in sensory and emotional experience... higher peaks, lower lows, and everything in between. I'm not going to pack up my toys and go home at the prospect of a little pain. I'll save sitting around on a cushion and experiencing utter desireless stillness for later. There will be plenty of time for that when I'm dead, or at least way older than I am now...
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2003, 09:53 AM   #6
Jim ashby
Dojo: Phoenix Coventry
Location: Coventry, England
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 303
Offline
Amen bro!

Vir Obesus Stola Saeptus
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2003, 11:01 AM   #7
opherdonchin
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
Location: Baltimore
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 586
Offline
Yeah, I have to agree that that was very nicely said, Kevin.

I read an interesting twist on this dichotomy recently. A friend of mine gave me a book by Ken Wilber. He's a popular (or populist ...) philosopher and I have no idea how seriously I'm supposed to take his stuff. Still, there was one idea that caught my fancy. He said that philosophies tend to fall into one of two extremes, either deifying the lust for life or deifying the rejection of this life in favor of some notion of Spirit. Buddhism and Christianity are in the latter camp; nature worship and Taoism, I guess, would be in the former camp. He said that he thought the truth was probably more in the middle.

It's a little hard for me to understand where the middle would be. I guess it seems like you either have to believe int the One or in the Many. Still, I found it thought provoking.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2003, 02:50 PM   #8
Qatana
 
Qatana's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Petaluma, Petaluma,CA
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 834
Offline
in 15 years of Buddhist practice i have never been instructed to deny or suppress any thought or feeling that comes up. there is a big difference between taking action on them or just noticing they were there.i was never told to "uproot desire" rather to be concious in my choices.

regarding love/lust i think the Buddhist precept of not harming through the use of sexuality is an excellent guidline. if no one is harmed,even in a purely physical relationship, some degree of love exists, if only temporary.

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2003, 03:42 PM   #9
Kevin Wilbanks
Location: Seattle/Southern Wisconsin
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 788
Offline
What kind of buddhism are we talking about here? It's my understanding that - although popular in the US - Zen is a very small and idiosyncratic part of the world of buddhism. When I've tried to talk Zen with people who have lived in SE Asia, they found the ideas completely alien and nothing like the buddhism of their experience.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2003, 07:10 PM   #10
Qatana
 
Qatana's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Petaluma, Petaluma,CA
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 834
Offline
most of my training has been from American & Western students of Southeast Asian teachers.I can't trace their lineage but i know they can.

There are several Zen centers in the area, its a matter of time before i get to them...

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2003, 07:55 PM   #11
Kevin Wilbanks
Location: Seattle/Southern Wisconsin
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 788
Offline
All I was saying is that I think Zen is enough of a different animal as to probably not have much bearing on the generalizations we were making above.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2003, 08:23 PM   #12
opherdonchin
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
Location: Baltimore
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 586
Offline
Again, I agree with Kevin. Zen and Daoism and Buddhism seem to be quite different things. The Buddhist reading that I've done seems to make a really strong issue out of 'avoiding suffering.' It's hard for me not to read this as a fear of something that I see as an essential and inalienable part of life. Zen and Daoism don't have this flavor.

But then, neither my reading nor my experience with any of these things is very serious.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2003, 08:50 PM   #13
Qatana
 
Qatana's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Petaluma, Petaluma,CA
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 834
Offline
Avoiding Suffering? the First Noble Truth is that there IS suffering. and there is a way OUT of it. that doesn't mean not Feeling Pain, or Love, or Passion. It means not being a Victim to any of these things.

There are many different kinds of Buddhism. Tibetan Buddhism is nothing like Zen which sometimes resembles Therevada( south-east Asian). They all have meditation practices involved which are similar techniques but many different philosophies. Here in the West we have the opportunity to mix & match & take what works for each of us as individuals.

kinda like Aikido, huh?

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2003, 11:20 PM   #14
Kevin Wilbanks
Location: Seattle/Southern Wisconsin
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 788
Offline
Quote:
Jo Adell (Qatana) wrote:
Avoiding Suffering? the First Noble Truth is that there IS suffering. and there is a way OUT of it. that doesn't mean not Feeling Pain, or Love, or Passion. It means not being a Victim to any of these things.
It sounds to me like you're drifting into the same sort of evasive, sophistical talk that Mike was using earlier. The standard stuff about finding a way out of suffering has to do with abandoning desire, especially for pleasure, material objects, and I guess in some sense immortality (although it seems arguable to me whether the quest for nirvana isn't just an immortality scheme of a different type). #1 is that the world is suffering, #2 is that desire and immersion in the messy stuff of life is the cause of suffering, #3 lo and behold, is that one can escape all this and get to Nirvana, #4 and worst yet, is that one has to follow all kinds of prescriptions for proper thought and behavior to get there.

The kind of 'roll-your-own' spin you're putting on this essentially life-denying scheme reminds me of someone I knew who claimed to be a radical, promiscuous sex-positive Catholic, or all the hordes of people out there who say they are Catholic but disagree with a good chunk of the dogma. If these people would just fess up to what the church was all about and accept the consequences, the damn place would go out of business next week. I don't see picking and choosing from various religions, or pieces of a particular religion as a good or lucky thing at all. I see it as wishy-washy way of avoiding personal responsibility which often results in lending de facto support to oppressive leaders and creeds.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2003, 08:01 AM   #15
Qatana
 
Qatana's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Petaluma, Petaluma,CA
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 834
Offline
fine Kevin. you know better than I do what I am talking about. Buddhism & meditation is all about escaping from reality. If you say so.

Since Kevin is the arbiter of all Truth in this site, why are we even bothering to have discussions at all.

Not to mention throwing 2500 years of a working philosophy right out the window.

No Buddhist country has ever started a war. And no, I do not consider Japan a Buddhist country.

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2003, 09:18 AM   #16
Kevin Wilbanks
Location: Seattle/Southern Wisconsin
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 788
Offline
Quote:
Jo Adell (Qatana) wrote:
Since Kevin is the arbiter of all Truth in this site, why are we even bothering to have discussions at all.
Hey, if you can't handle a little argumentative rigor, feel free to run and hide. But if so, perhaps you should refrain from making bold, absurd claims like this:
Quote:
Jo Adell (Qatana) wrote:
No Buddhist country has ever started a war.
Surely you jest. First, are you limiting the definition to wars between soveriegn states? 99% + of contemporary wars are civil wars. Now, maybe you don't consider oppressing a minority until they can't take it any more 'starting a war', but I do. In that case, Laos and its Hmong population comes to mind immediately. If I were more up on history, I'm sure I could come up with dozens more examples. Even assuming inter-sovereign national war as the only kind, ever hear of the Siamese Empire, the Angkor Empire? Any idea how one acquires the the designation "empire"?

Once again, you're giving us a rose-colored spin on what is essentially just another world religion. Areas in which it was popular have had just as bloody a history as anywhere else. I suspect it is arguable that Buddhism is a bit less war-like and oppressive than the big monotheisms and Hinduism, but it's not a bunch of peace-lovin' Californians sitting on comfy cushions.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2003, 09:38 AM   #17
Qatana
 
Qatana's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Petaluma, Petaluma,CA
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 834
Offline
no Buddhist Government has ever started a war

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2003, 02:09 PM   #18
opherdonchin
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
Location: Baltimore
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 586
Offline
All right, no need for any of us life-affirming people to get angry or (even subtly) abusive.

Jo, if I'm willing to agree with you that Kevin is probably overstating his point, are you willing to agree with me that he does have a point?

Yours in Aiki
Opher
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2003, 05:51 PM   #19
Qatana
 
Qatana's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Petaluma, Petaluma,CA
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 834
Offline
And what point is that?

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2003, 09:35 PM   #20
Kevin Wilbanks
Location: Seattle/Southern Wisconsin
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 788
Offline
You got me! There were no real points. All that verbose gibberish was just window dressing. I actually have no belief or genuine interest in any of the content of my posts here. I'm just a big meanie, and my sole purpose in posting is to hurt people's feelings. Curses, foiled again!
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2003, 05:36 AM   #21
happysod
Dojo: Kiburn, London, UK
Location: London
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 899
United Kingdom
Offline
And here was me thinking you were just a big softy with a lust for "squats" .

Seriously, getting back to the "lust" thing, don't you think that it's the actions associated with lust that make so many uneasy? By this I mean that while lust itself is essentially natural (remember teenage years?) it's the methods used to asuage that lust that can make it come a cropper. I don't see much difference between Mike's total denial (and implied associated guilt) where lust is concerned and hedonists who believe they have the right to act on their lust. I prefer to acknowledge rather than deny my lusts, many are unobtainable, but their impact is lessoned if I face them rather than just deny them.

Having said that, I do have an unnatural lust for my sensei's katana which is giving me some severe ethical problems...
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2003, 07:33 AM   #22
opherdonchin
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
Location: Baltimore
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 586
Offline
Quote:
Jo wrote:
And what point is that?
Quote:
Kevin wrote:
The standard stuff about finding a way out of suffering has to do with abandoning desire, especially for pleasure, material objects, and I guess in some sense immortality (although it seems arguable to me whether the quest for nirvana isn't just an immortality scheme of a different type).
Although, I guess it isn't Kevin's point after all. Maybe it's mine.

On the issue of lust, specifically, I have to admit to being a long way from 'accepting' all of my lusts. Some of them feel very wrong to me, regardless of my philosophy.

Last edited by opherdonchin : 07-07-2003 at 07:35 AM.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2003, 08:56 AM   #23
Qatana
 
Qatana's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Petaluma, Petaluma,CA
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 834
Offline
well since the quote you posted has pretty much nothing to do with any Buddhist teaching i ever heard i suppose you're correct.

once more- it is not about "abandoning desire" it is about recognising it as what it as and choosing then to make an informed choice whether to act on any particular desire. there is the desire for sustenance- we Must eat.there is desire for a sword, or a car, or a man,or a particular colored belt- are these things necessary for me to survive? well maybe i don't Need them, i know i Want them and well maybe i can survive perfectly well without.

And lets just be clear that i am talking about the practice for the general populace. Monastic practices are a bit more stringent to highly restricting in various schools. monks take vows of renunciation because their primary focus in this world is their Practice.They chose a life of Practice and the practice is recognising those things that distract from the practice and using that recognition as practice instead...

And i just want to repeat here at the bottom of the page that all i am saying is stuff that I have directly experienced, as i said "Buddhism As I Know It".

Theres a reason its called "practice"...

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2003, 10:28 AM   #24
ikkainogakusei
Location: All over CA
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 137
Offline
Ai symbol

Funny, I find valid points in both Kevin's and Jo's arguments. For me, the most significant advice from the Buddha is 'take the middle road'.

My interpretation of Jo's assertion [paraphrased] 'accept that we all lust, just don't be a victim of it' is that if we go to an extreme with lust and allow it to ruin our lives [be it addiction or obsession/compulsion] then we have not taken the midle road. On the other hand if we are obsessed with self-control/denial then we have gone to an extreme of desire [uh for control]which will complicate our lives as well.

I agree with Kevin about dressed up fancy rationalizations, it happens everywhere, not just in religions. I feel however that the simple beginnings and basic tennets set out by some of these 'prophets' are oft manipulated by those who choose to wrangle for control. One does not often hear an evangelist quote Romans 14:13-14 'Let us not therefore judge one another, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hinderance in the way of another I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but thinking it makes it so '. Why, because in organised religion, shame is a powerful tool. Having a mass of people feel shameful that they are unclean or have committed an unclean act allows a manipulator to weild a lot of power.

To argue the different divisions of Buddhism might be folly, as they all have different paths with one goal in mind. Much like arguing which Aikido is best, or more 'true'. Much like insisting that there is only one 'lust'. There are some basics which [uh, I assume] all Buddhists agree Buddha taught such as the eightfold path, and there are things which [likely] most Christians agree that Jesus taught such as 'love thy neighbor as thyself...' or 'Let he who has not sinned throw the first stone...' but still there is a dogma which imposes more opressive and less simple rules which become more about capitualting than living.

For me, I see my lust as an element of my being. I accept it and on occasion give in to it so long as the spirit of my intent is neither harmful to myself nor another. In addition, I don't see lust as only sexual. Many of us, especially those of us in the U.S. are inundated by a media which has been honing it's skills for decades to tap into the lusts/desires which inspire us to buy needless things which only have the hollow promise of bettering our lives. Sometimes when witnessing the gluttony of consumerism I am inclined to agree with Mr. Lee, but then I remember to 'Take the Middle Road.'

Whoa, I'll step down from my soap box now. Thanks for the patience during my pontification.


"To educate a man in mind, and not in morals, is to educate a menace to society." ~Theodore Roosevelt
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2003, 10:41 AM   #25
Qatana
 
Qatana's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Petaluma, Petaluma,CA
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 834
Offline
Thank you Jane.What you said here:

"For me, I see my lust as an element of my being. I accept it and on occasion give in to it so long as the spirit of my intent is neither harmful to myself nor another"

is exactly what i am talking about.

Lust is neither good nor bad. It just Is.What we do with it, how we respond to it, is the true issue.Will this cause harm, or benefit, or neither, or both???

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Aikido and Libido Unregistered Anonymous 108 12-09-2004 05:35 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:12 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2018 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2018 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate