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Old 11-20-2000, 02:31 PM   #26
BC
Location: Chicago, IL
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Quote:
crystalwizard wrote:
(flying is the art of throwing yourself at the ground and missing) [/b]
Thank you Mr. Dent (or was it Slartibartfast?) LOL

OK. If O Sensei was "Superman," what would have been his "cryptonite?" A Big Mac maybe? Or Tae Bo?

Robert Cronin
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Old 11-20-2000, 03:31 PM   #27
George S. Ledyard
 
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Magic vs Magical

Quote:
ian wrote:

I've never experienced any magical aspects of aikido - when a technique works it is from precise technique (through years of training) and a positive attitude (through mental discipline). I think an attatchment to mysticism can lead to self-delusion, whereby we believe ourselves to be more powerful than we are - and maybe try to convince others the same.

Ian
Years ago I read a letter to Black Belt magazine in which a fellow bemoaned the people who kept talking about the spiritual aspects of martial arts training. He stated that this was a BS and that he personally could attest to that fact in that he had practiced for many years without deriving any spioritual benefit of any kind. Quite an accomplishment I must say.

After posting that Saotome Sensei categorically stated that he had never witnessed any kind of supernatural techniques by O-Sensei I find myself needing to qualify this based on what some people are saying in the discussion.

If you think that Aikido is simply a matter of the correct application of mechanics, that its just a matter of the understanding of scientific principles, then you are killing Aikido. When I said that we don't want to make our seniors supernatural it was because that puts them above us in a way that we can't attain.

Rather than demystify Aikido, just realize that you can understand the mystical nature of the art yourself. If Aikido is just a set of practical ways to torque on a partner efficiantly why the hell do we need it? How many people will ever in their lives use a technique for self defense. What a waste of time if that is all there is. These scientific folks remind me of a statement by a Native American about how White people looked at the world. He stated that the White man treated everything as if it were dead. If you want to ignore uncounted thousands of years of spiritual insights so that you can reduce everything down to what we can currently explain scientifically and those elements that we can't yet explain you are ignoring the fact that the "knower" of these explanations is a miraculous human being not some biologic computer. Explain everything that you can see in the universe, every single thing and you will still have the unexplained. Things are far more complex and beautiful than logic and scientific understanding will encompass.

Virtually every teacher who trained under the Founder has stories of how extraordinary he was. His ability to do technique was "magical" but not "magic". As far back as you can go in the accounts of the deshi you can find instances in which O-Sensei exhibited psychic powers (those stories can also be found about most of the giants of the martial arts).

As living beings we are far more than just the sum of the chemical comonents of which we are made. Aikido is about unifying body, mind, and spirit. Any practice that ignores one of the three aspects isn't really Aikido as the Founder envisioned it.

There are a large number of elements in Aikido that are truely magical (but not magic). If you don't know that then you haven't had the chance of doing aikido with someone who is practicing on that level. I have.

[Edited by George S. Ledyard on November 20, 2000 at 03:45pm]

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 11-20-2000, 04:17 PM   #28
shadow
Dojo: Aiki Kun Ren (Iwama style)
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Quote:
crystalwizard wrote:
in answer to shadows previous comments about science, I'd like to point out that when aikido works, it is precisely because of certain scientific principals. Things involving gravity, physics and the dynamics of motion. Things that are known in great detail because a lot of years of study have gone into them and things you can study and witness yourself at home without having to involve any scientists. Things that dont change.
[Edited by crystalwizard on November 20, 2000 at 02:31pm]
have you had any experience with quantam physics for one thing? All kinds of unexplained things happen....for example if you trap a single atom inside a vacuum in a glass...after a certain amount of time the atom will appear outside the glass, there is no reason why this happens, it just does. Things do change. We are made up of thousands of atoms...but nevertheless, still atoms. How several billion atoms combined together is suddenly able to think I am not sure how that is possible but I'm not to say what is and isn't possible, but I don't shut out the possibility of anything! Science can only be explained so far, but it doesn't come anywhere close to giving any kind of answer to anything....there is always another level of "how?" and "why?"
As for saying because o'sensei achieved maybe some sort of spiritual enlightenment, placing him as a god our out of our reach defeats the purpose also. It's what I aspire for and I know it is attainable.
It is very hard to write exactly what I want to say here in words but I hope you get the idea anyway.

happiness. harmony. compassion.
--damien--
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Old 11-20-2000, 04:20 PM   #29
shadow
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Actually I do know what I want to say, read George Ledyard's post.....that's about the idea I'm trying to give hehe

happiness. harmony. compassion.
--damien--
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Old 11-20-2000, 04:50 PM   #30
crystalwizard
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Quote:
shadow wrote:

have you had any experience with quantam physics for one thing? All kinds of unexplained things happen....for example if you trap a single atom inside a vacuum in a glass...after a certain amount of time the atom will appear outside the glass, there is no reason why this happens, it just does. Things do change. We are made up of thousands of atoms...but nevertheless, still atoms. How several billion atoms combined together is suddenly able to think I am not sure how that is possible but I'm not to say what is and isn't possible, but I don't shut out the possibility of anything! Science can only be explained so far, but it doesn't come anywhere close to giving any kind of answer to anything....there is always another level of "how?" and "why?"
yes actual I have had some experience with quantum physics.
Yes there's a reason why the atom appears outside the glass
and btw teleportation of small particals is a matter of quite a bit of study
and a proven fact, at least for photons. Some links you might
find interesting:
http://www.sciam.com/explorations/12...ort/index.html
http://www.ae.utexas.edu/~pozo/quantum/quantum.html
http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo/

Oh, and time doesn't exist, but we wont go into that one.

Kelly Christiansen
*CRASH*
'oooo...I think that karma just ran over a dogma!'

[Edited by crystalwizard on November 20, 2000 at 05:26pm]
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Old 11-20-2000, 06:21 PM   #31
shadow
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well I don't think I've got much left to say hehe.....do you want to get married kelly?

happiness. harmony. compassion.
--damien--
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Old 11-20-2000, 08:06 PM   #32
Nick
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you guys didn't watch the Matrix very closely, did you? You should know that there is no glass, as well as no spoon, and we can all stop time and hang in midair as we kick our opponent 58 times.

Don't believe everything you hear or watch, science included.

Nick

---
Nick Porter
"Do not fall into the trap of the artisan who boasts twenty years of experience, when in fact he has had only one year of experience-- twenty times."
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Old 11-21-2000, 12:57 AM   #33
crystalwizard
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Quote:
shadow wrote:
well I don't think I've got much left to say hehe.....do you want to get married kelly?
Been there, done that, got the grandkids..I'll pass thanks.

____________
Kelly Christiansen

A loving person lives in a loving world. A hostile person lives in a hostile world. Everyone you meet is your mirror
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Old 11-21-2000, 08:41 AM   #34
Aikidoka2000
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Ai symbol

Well, I suppose there is No need for more discussion on the subject.
It would seem that Kelly has it all figured out.
The Universe, quantum wackiness, Aikido.
Pretty impressive if you ask me.
-Aiki

-When two blades cross points,
There's no need to withdraw.
The master swordsman
Is like the lotus blooming in the fire.
Such a person has inside of them
A heaven soaring spirit.
- Tozan Ryokan
4th verse on the 5 ranks
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Old 11-21-2000, 10:10 AM   #35
Stick Man
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Ki Symbol Magic???

Hmmm... really good thread... well, I haven't heard as many superhuman stories about O'Sensei as you guys seem to have. It doesn't surprise me, though. Someone as famous as he is bound to have some legends written about him. Further, it seems reasonable that some feats, which seen live could be considered merely remarkable, might be exaggerated to an extreme. I doubt O'Sensei wanted or needed to encourage this himself.

Having said that, I think O'Sensei did do some VERY "remarkable" things. I remember only one story, told by Kisshomaru Ueshiba, no less, of O'Sensei being caught by a number of riflemen, and, since he was convinced he was about to die, actually acheived a clarity of mind that, supposedly, let him "see" who was going to fire and when, thus allowing him to dodge the bullets. Amazing, but I doubt it was like the rooftop scene from "The Matrix." Further, we have to remember that these guys were using bolt-action rifles, and not machine guns, and may not have been great shots to begin with. Considering all of this, the feat is truly worthy of awe, respect, and amazement, but is not, in fact, "magic." I submit, in the words of Dr. Strange, that "magic is just science that hasn't been discovered yet."

Now, before all you mystics out there flame me, I'll say one more thing: I think people who think of Aikido as mere physics are engaged in a very sad pursuit indeed. You can argue all you want over what "Ki" is, or what "energy flow" is in a technique, but you can't argue that what you do is triggered by your brain, and that Aikido encourages you to make sure that what your brain demands is triggered by what your mind feels. As such, practice becomes more than just sensing where uke is standing/grabbing/punching etc. It becomes sensing, through physical connection, what uke is feeling. If that's not the soul, I don't know what is. It's not "magic" either. It's just learning to be in tune with yourself and others. I think O'Sensei understood this, and the inspiration to us all to practice that is his legacy. He was a remarkable man, but just a man nonetheless.

Sean Murphy

Stick Man, the aiki-grasshopper, aka Sean Murphy
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