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Old 06-14-2003, 03:33 AM   #1
Jamesha21
Location: Cape Town
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Unhappy Just how effective is Aikido in the street?

Greetings all and sundry

This is a very short, to the point question, and pretty important for someone looking to defend himself against thugs on the street. Just how effective is Aikido as a self defense "tool".
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Old 06-14-2003, 05:44 AM   #2
Jem8472
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It depends which style you train in. If you train 100% everytime you go and how you choose to apply it.

Jeremy

www.aikido-dynamic.co.uk
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Old 06-14-2003, 06:22 AM   #3
SmilingNage
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Here is a short and pointed reply, stay off that street that has the thugs on it. Go looking for trouble and trouble will oblige itself.

As for studying of martial arts, they are for self mastery not mastery of others. I suggest looking at them all. There are many lessons to be had from all the martial arts. More often then not people come to Aikido after studying elsewhere and find Aikido is what they were missing in their training.

So good luck and research the training hall/dojo you hope to attend. Finding the right teacher is paramount.

Dont make me, make you, grab my wrist.
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Old 06-14-2003, 07:15 AM   #4
Thalib
 
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Check my post here:Spiritual > What is your limit for violence? Post #35

When I have to die by the sword, I will do so with honor.
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http://funkybuddha.multiply.com/
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Old 06-14-2003, 07:47 AM   #5
Ta Kung
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James, here's a short and to the point answer: No, the way most Aikido dojos practise will not give you much to use on the street.

If you're looking for self defence only, check out Krav Maga. Granted, Aikido can be used successfully as a self defence tool, but it takes a very long time to get that good at it.

If self defence is your only goal, Aikido is not for you.

Regards,

Patrik
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Old 06-14-2003, 09:29 AM   #6
jvadakin
Dojo: Aikikai Foundation of Delaware
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Quote:
Patrik Eng (Ta Kung) wrote:
James, here's a short and to the point answer: No, the way most Aikido dojos practise will not give you much to use on the street.

If you're looking for self defence only, check out Krav Maga. Granted, Aikido can be used successfully as a self defence tool, but it takes a very long time to get that good at it.

If self defence is your only goal, Aikido is not for you.

Regards,

Patrik
Hello everyone, I am new to Aikido so perhaps I misunderstand the point of contention here. Aikido is derived from Ju-Jitsu, a rather brutal and battle tested martial art. This derivation was done by Morihei Ueshiba who was considered to be one of the finest martial artists in Japan. Many police officers use Aikido, and as depicted in the book "Angry White Pajammas," Aikido was once the choosen art of the Japanese Riot Police. I realize that Zen and Shintoism were incorporated into Aikido, which led to the elimination of some of the deadlier Ju-Jitsu techniques. I also realize that most Aikido schools do not use any type of sparing but only prearranged cooperative techniques. Are these last two facts sufficient to nullify the effectiveness of the art in a self defense situation? Brazilian Ju-Jitsu, which has proven itself in the UFC, is derived from Ju-Jitsu just like Aikido! Unfortunately this type of "doubting" post is very common on the web, and I considered the problem before joining Aikido. My personal opinion(academic mostly since I'm just a newbie) is that Aikido is effective for self-defense. I think competance in Aikido (i.e. you could actually use it in a fast moving street environment) must take longer than competance in say Karate. Karate is very efficient. I studied Okinawian Karate when I was a teen-ager and the Sensei taught very few techniques, prefering to make us really master the basics (3 level punches, side/roundhouse/snap kick, etc.) In my first several weeks of Aikido, I've been overwhelmed with the sheer volume of instruction. Aikido also seems to require a very high level of coordination and balance. I enjoy the challenge, but then again I'm not training for a looming showdown at high noon. My path in life is fairly unexciting (no street fights etc.), but I like to think that if I'm ever attacked, after say a year or two of Aikido training, that my techniques would improve my chances of successful defense! As a new Aikidoka, I am very disturbed when people reply to internet post questions about the effectivness of Aikido with the rather non sequiter, "Avoiding the fight is victory. Defeat the enemy within." They certainly are correct in their statements, but they avoid the question of effective self-defense entirely. Therefore I'm going to submit a revised question to the forum: 1. Assuming a situation in which escape and negotiation prove impossible, and we have reason to fear the opponent means grave harm. Is Aikido effective in defending against attack? 2. This question is usually answered with the obvious "it depends on the skill of the Aikidoka." Therefore, Assume the average (Competance, size etc.)Aikidoka after one year of training. Also assume average bully . I think the Aikidoka would certainly be better off than if he had never practiced! I guess the question is sort of relative (i.e. does it take two years of Aikido training to lead to the same level of self-defense as a person would recieve in one year of Karate etc.)?
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Old 06-14-2003, 10:57 AM   #7
MaylandL
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Hello James

If you are interested in reseacrching self defense and martial arts can I suggest that you have a look at this site. I think Mr MacYoung has a lot of good advice that you may wish to consider.

All the best for training

Mayland
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Old 06-14-2003, 12:24 PM   #8
Alec Corper
 
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With respect we've been here before and although the post is obviously sincere the question is wrong.

The question HAS TO BE "Is MY Aikido effective in the street?", if you are asking about self defense. There is no such thing as an effective martial art, only effective practitioners.

As someone else said very well, Aikido is for mastering self first, and then, perhaps, mastering others. Master awareness, perception and sensitivity and you should not find yourself in the wrong places.

If you really want to learn to fight on the street find a street fighter who is willing to teach you. Street fights usually dont last more than 30 seconds, and the winners tend to be people who are brutal, devious, and where possible, in larger groups.

One last point, and this is a very personal opinion, but trying to learn to fight will prevent learning Aikido, and learning Aikido the way it is taught in many dojos will prevent you learning to fight. This might not be a bad thing, but confusion about reality can kill.

Regards, Alec

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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Old 06-14-2003, 07:24 PM   #9
Daniel Blanco
Dojo: Suffolk Aikikai
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TO PATRICK AIKIDO IS VERY EFFECTIVE IN SELF DEFENSE LOOK AT IT IN THIS PERSPECTIVE, IT IS USED AS A SURPRISE ATTACK. AS YOUTRAIN LONGER YOU WILL FEEL THE HANDLE / BALANCE OF POWER IN AIKIDO. I AM A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER AN AIKIDO IS MY FIRST DEFENSE SO CONTINE TRAINING OK .
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Old 06-14-2003, 08:37 PM   #10
shihonage
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Aikido is effective when

a) You have some level of fitness.

b) Aikido movements have imprinted themselves into your flinch response.

You don't look for Aikido technique, you just MOVE in the way most natural to the circumstances.

c) You have adopted a certain way of behavior which either makes the other guy decide its not worth messing with you, or goads him into getting very angry and rushing at you.

d) You don't neglect reality, and you don't think twice about things like smashing the nose, gouging eyes or hitting the balls, if given the opportunity.
You also don't neglect the use of surrounding objects as weapons.

Last edited by shihonage : 06-14-2003 at 08:39 PM.
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Old 06-14-2003, 10:08 PM   #11
sanosuke
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Aikido itself is effective, the only problem is whether YOUR aikido effective or not.
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Old 06-14-2003, 11:30 PM   #12
Don_Modesto
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Re: Just how effective is Aikido in the street?

Quote:
James Harrison (Jamesha21) wrote:
Just how effective is Aikido as a self defense "tool".
Welcome to the board. I suggest you explore the search function.

Thanks.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
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Old 06-14-2003, 11:43 PM   #13
Charles Hill
Dojo: Numazu Aikikai/Aikikai Honbu Dojo
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If you can, check out Elliot Freeman, an Aikido teacher out of St. Louis. I went to a seminar he taught and learned a lot about Aikido and practical self defense.

Charles
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Old 06-15-2003, 05:58 AM   #14
Ta Kung
Join Date: Apr 2001
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Tongue

Well friends,

As always one is forced to explain in detail. That's the problem when you chose between short and to the point answers, or long novel ones.

Please take the time to read my post yet again, and keep in mind that Aikido is one of the most important things in my life. Don't be so quick to defend our art, that you miss the valid points my post has to offer.
Quote:
Aikido can be used successfully as a self defence tool, but it takes a very long time to get that good at it.
If anyone disagrees, please let me know.
Quote:
If self defence is your only goal, Aikido is not for you.
Aikido works for self defence, but keep quote #1 in mind. If it is your ONLY goal, then the fact remains, there are other arts (like krav maga) that offers self defence only, and that is quicker to learn.
Quote:
the way most Aikido dojos practise will not give you much to use on the street.
I guess that if you only read this quote, you might get your pants in a knot. I would to. But I'd also read the entire post.

I'm not really saying Aikido doesn't work in a self defence situation anyhwere, am I? I'm only saying that Aikido is in no way the fastest most reliable way to self defence. If you think otherwise, I'd love to see the way you practise. It DOES take time do get good enough, but it IS possible.

I do agree with the statement that "Aikido works, yours might not". But it is a bit like Freuds strategy ("You either agree, or you're lying to yourself"). I wouldn't use this as my only point to "defend" Aikido.

Keep practising Aikido for whatever reason, it's a wounderful Martial Art, with lots of benefits. Including self defence. I belive it is not the right choice if your ONLY goal is self defence. It takes too long to learn. There ARE better alternatives.

Yours in Aiki,

Patrik

Last edited by Ta Kung : 06-15-2003 at 06:06 AM.
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Old 06-15-2003, 06:25 AM   #15
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Patrik Eng (Ta Kung) wrote:
If anyone disagrees, please let me know.
I do. There are several training methods out there that have varying times to produce the "effective" aikidoist. It all depends on what you want to do and how deperately you want to do it. Aikido is technically difficult and one of the reasons Ueshiba M. was fired from the Ninja school is he wasn't imparting the skill fast enough. That doesn't mean its not possible or more to the point there are very effective tools in aikidos arsenal that can be taught very quickly.


Quote:
Aikido works for self defence, but keep quote nr 1 in mind. If it is your ONLY goal, then the fact remains, there are other arts (like krav maga) that offers self defence only, and that is quicker to learn.
Well in addition to the above the best way to get good at a particular situation is to constantly put yourself in that situation. I really don't know much about Krav Maga beyond watching a couple of training sessions but if the average student in those groups were any indication - well they were average. Same can be said for any and every organization.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-15-2003, 06:56 AM   #16
Ta Kung
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Quote:
Aikido is technically difficult and one of the reasons Ueshiba M. was fired from the Ninja school is he wasn't imparting the skill fast enough.
Goes well with my point "Aikido can be used successfully as a self defence tool, but it takes a very long time to get that good at it." doesn't it?
Quote:
I really don't know much about Krav Maga beyond watching a couple of training sessions but if the average student in those groups were any indication - well they were average. Same can be said for any and every organization.
True. But the average Aikidoka with 1 year of practise most likely isn't as "effective in the street" as someone who studied Krav Maga for 1 year. Wouldn't you agree?

Mr. Rehese, do you believe that Aikido is the right choice if one is interested ONLY in learning self defence? This is the question as I see it.

Respectfully,

Patrik
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Old 06-15-2003, 07:26 AM   #17
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Patrik Eng (Ta Kung) wrote:
Goes well with my point "Aikido can be used successfully as a self defence tool, but it takes a very long time to get that good at it." doesn't it?
Hi Patrik;

Just heading off home - I'm seriously hungry but quickly.

I've said before that carefully choosing which techniques to concentrate on and teaching them with a specific goal in mind one can produce a very dangerous individual within a very short time. That said, one of the attractions of Aikido is its complexity and therefore like most of us it is taking a rather long time to get good at it - I just don't want to train for that one goal.
Quote:
True. But the average Aikidoka with 1 year of practise most likely isn't as "effective in the street" as someone who studied Krav Maga for 1 year. Wouldn't you agree?
To be blunt I think both would be pretty useless. I would go for a boxer - especially one with the balls to hop into a ring as soon as possible.
Quote:
Mr. Rehse, do you believe that Aikido is the right choice if one is interested ONLY in learning self defence? This is the question as I see it.
Well see above and it can be. It all depends on the individual (yeah I know I'm tired of hearing that too) and the dojo. I don't quite see the question in the same way in that many groups that claim self defencesuperiority are really not that much better in delivering the goods. At least the Aikido dojos that don't emphasize that aspect are relatively honest about it.

Before I die of starvation let me just say that if you want to learn self defence the best way is probably to get a bit of head protection, a pair of gloves and jump into a ring or anyplace there is a consequence to getting hit. You don't need broken bones just a good ringing of the bells. The mental strength you can obtain from just overcoming that primeval fear is well beyond what you gain from particular techniques.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-15-2003, 07:43 AM   #18
Ta Kung
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Quote:
To be blunt I think both would be pretty useless. I would go for a boxer - especially one with the balls to hop into a ring as soon as possible.
Ok, you say boxing instead of Krav Maga. At least when it comes to defence against an unarmed attacker, i take it. None of us say Aikido. Then maybe I wasn't that far of the point, after all.

Thank you for your reply!

Best wishes,

Patrik
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Old 06-15-2003, 09:20 AM   #19
Daniel Blanco
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TO ALL CONCERN AIKIDO IS AN EFFECTIVE M.A. AS LONG AS YOU TRAIN HARD AND FOCUS.JUST AS KARATE OR ANY M.A.. WHICH MEANS YOU SHOULD BE TRAINING AT LEAST 3X A WEEK WITH OUT FAIL ALL YEAR LONG AND THATS ANY M.A., AFTER A YEAR YOU SHOULD BE FEELING POSITIVE ABOUT YOUR TRAINING. ANYONE WHO DOESNT FEEL THE SAME WAY SHOULD LOOK REAL HARD AT THEMSELVES BEFORE DOUBTING ANY M.A..
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Old 06-15-2003, 09:22 AM   #20
Daniel Blanco
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I USED TO BOX FOR TEN YEARS AND THE SAME APPLIES YOU MUST TRAIN HARD TO SUCCED.
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Old 06-15-2003, 09:25 AM   #21
Daniel Blanco
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SEE YOU ALL LATER I AM GOING TO THE BEACH ITS FATHERS DAY SO HAPPY FATHERS DAY TO ALL YOU DADS.
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Old 06-15-2003, 09:50 AM   #22
Charles Hill
Dojo: Numazu Aikikai/Aikikai Honbu Dojo
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Peter,

What is this about Morihei Ueshiba being fired from a ninja school? I have never heard that!

In my opinion, there is no difference between Krav Maga and basic Aikido. From what I have seen and read the principles are the same. I do see, however, a HUGE difference in they way they are usually taught. As for the question of, after a year of training, who'd deal better with a real self defense situation, that of course depends on the school. However, if the people were picked from randomly chosen schools, I'd put my money on Krav Maga.

Charles
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Old 06-15-2003, 09:58 AM   #23
Daniel Blanco
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ANY REPLY TO MY COMMENTS
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Old 06-15-2003, 10:38 AM   #24
Charles Hill
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Daniel,

Yes, I have a couple of replies.

1. Why do you always use all capitals?

2. What happened to going to the beach?

Have a good Father's Day,

Charles
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Old 06-15-2003, 11:31 AM   #25
cindy perkins
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This is a VERY well-worn question, so I will keep my response very short.

My sensei has taught me quite a few techniques and variations that may not be "aiki" but would work well in a self-defense situation. He tells us that if we want self-defense, buy a handgun.
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