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Old 06-13-2003, 12:19 AM   #51
Edward
Location: Bangkok
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Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
Unfortunately, what you say about the history and the relationship between this person and the chief instructor leads me to put the blame on the chief instructor, and hence, most likely the whole organization.
I agree with you 100% and have on several occasions brought up the subject, but I never received a clear and convincing answer.

I do believe however that he does not consider the situation as alarming as I view it. You know, the old generation aikidoists have been subjected to a lot of abuse by their Sempai, so I really don't know....

Maybe we students of the 21 century have different standards than that of the generation of the 1950's and 1960's.
 
Old 06-13-2003, 12:27 AM   #52
YEME
Dojo: South West Aiki
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Sorry Edward, I think i meant my rambling response as a general observation of society today.

I can't begin to understand the cultural difference so its very hard to give advice/opinion. I don't know what is/isn't acceptable there. Here we can basically take the offender to court in worst case scenario...but there would have been questioning/discussion and possibly physical retaliation/defence at the time of the incident.

it only takes one voice to speak up in order to start others asking themselves the same questions ...or else vote with your feet.

no one deserves to be treated in the way that you describe.

but again, i am not in your shoes and this is not an ideal world.

Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome.
--Isaac Asimov

 
Old 06-13-2003, 01:26 AM   #53
Edward
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Quote:
Edward Karaa (Edward) wrote:
I agree with you 100% and have on several occasions brought up the subject, but I never received a clear and convincing answer.
Regarding the same subject, let me tell you an anecdote which happened about 1 year ago.

An Indian man used to bring his teenage daughter every day to training and watch her untill she finishes to escort her home. One day, the intructor was particularly in a bad mood, and she relieved all her frustration on the poor girl, who was in tears. The father was fuming.

After the training, I saw the man and his daughter go into the head instructor's office. I thought to myself: Someone is finally gonna do something about it!

Later on I went to see the head instructor, and he told me: You see that Indian man? He just told me that he is very happy that the class is so severe because it is good for building personnality. He asked us to be as severe as possible with his daughter. You always complain about this instructor, but you see, some people like it this way.

I was shocked and couldn't believe that a father would watch his daughter being verbally abused to the point of crying, and ask for more. It must have been a misunderstanding. Maybe he was being sarcastic or something?

Effectively, they never showed up again at the dojo. If they were so happy with the special "treatment", they should have come back for more.

The sad thing is that the head instructor still believes untill now that the man was serious about asking for more punishment for his daughter.
 
Old 06-13-2003, 02:20 AM   #54
Brian Boyd
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I was wondering 2 things. What do people think would have happned if:

1. The student (who we are told was much bigger than the instructor) after getting hit and kicked in the face, plain and simply gave the teach a good old fashion "butt kicking." Just beating her into the ground. (Assuming that the student could) Yea, this might not solve anything, but maybe this is what this instructor needs.

2. Assuming that we would have been in a county where lawsuits are common, what if the student decided to sue the instructor for battery in civil court, and also press charges in criminal court for the assault?
 
Old 06-13-2003, 09:11 AM   #55
jxa127
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Edward,

Why do you continue to train there? Life is too short and money too scarce to spend either in an unhealthy environment like that.

Regards,

----
-Drew Ames
 
Old 06-13-2003, 09:56 AM   #56
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
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Edward:

Geez. Everytime you provide new information this person sounds even more dangerous and scary. She sounds like a petty dictator and apparently this behavior is being sanctioned or tolerated by the head instructor. That is very disturbing. This sounds like someone who has no business teaching period.

By the way. Do you know an aikidoka named Preecha? He got his shodan in the states and he is an artist. I don't recall the spelling of his last name-I believe it starts with a N. I used to train with him in Temecula California. I know he moved back to Thailand and I believe it was Bangkok.
 
Old 06-13-2003, 10:13 AM   #57
Edward
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Quote:
Drew Ames (jxa127) wrote:
Why do you continue to train there?
Well, I have been recently asking myself this vey question. Thanks
 
Old 06-13-2003, 10:16 AM   #58
Edward
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Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
Do you know an aikidoka named Preecha? He got his shodan in the states and he is an artist.
If he's still training, I should know him. The problem is that Thais usually use nicknames rather than their real names. I'll ask and let you know.
 
Old 06-13-2003, 12:15 PM   #59
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
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Quote:
Brian Boyd wrote:
if:

1. The student (who we are told was much bigger than the instructor) after getting hit and kicked in the face, plain and simply gave the teach a good old fashion "butt kicking." Just beating her into the ground. (Assuming that the student could) Yea, this might not solve anything, but maybe this is what this instructor needs.

2. Assuming that we would have been in a county where lawsuits are common, what if the student decided to sue the instructor for battery in civil court, and also press charges in criminal court for the assault?
1) A second instance of battery will have been comitted and the perpetrator would be answerable to criminal charges (in the US, anyway).

2) It would be healthy. A wake up call. Unfortunately, it would probably also hurt genuinely tough (not vicious) training. I'm thinking of how child abuse came out of the closet some years ago and how some innocent individuals have been railroaded and ruined unjustly in the name of stopping it.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
 
Old 06-13-2003, 03:20 PM   #60
Goye
 
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Hello everyone!

It´s evident that this case is more serious than it seems. First I thought it was an isolated incident but it´s not.

There is something that worries to me, we haven´t hear the instructor´s version about the incident or from other students or either the cheif instructor. This isn´t a judgement space because this chat doesn´t have any atribution for this ussues. Even that, I think we can contribute to make from Aikido a better Martial Art wolrdwide day by day by sharing opinions, points of view and experiences. I sugest to Edward to joint other people from the same Dojo to express themselves and rich this chat. If they agree will be so good listen opinions from the instructor we are talking or the chief instructor.

Based on what Edward express to this forum I can confirm there´s something wrong inside organization. I don´t know Aikido´s Organizational Structure on Tailand, but i guess the chieff instructor must have a membership to someone higher Organization or be linked somehow to some a Shihan. I think this Shihan should know this case to prevent other further problems like this.

The way of Akido´s practice involves some self-regulation mechanisms for preventing that situations like this turn in a very nocive troubles, for society and also for people invoved in Aikido. If there is something wrong it´s a concen of all of us involve in Aikido to act in order to prevent this cases!!,.. we have to prevent the drgradation of our art!!

BYE!!!

César Martínez
Satori Dojo
 
Old 06-13-2003, 09:48 PM   #61
Edward
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Quote:
César Martínez (Goye) wrote:
I sugest to Edward to joint other people from the same Dojo to express themselves and rich this chat. If they agree will be so good listen opinions from the instructor we are talking or the chief instructor.

Based on what Edward express to this forum I can confirm there´s something wrong inside organization.
Cesar, let's not jump to conclusions here. A bad apple does not mean that the whole organization is at fault.

As I said earlier, it is inconcievable for a Thai to speak up against a teacher. They have 2 choices, either to accept the situation stoically or leave. Some accept it and many leave, in fact. Plus some people seem to enjoy verbal abuse and a bootcamp like training.

As for the expats, I am probably the only one to take aikido seriously. The others just come after work once or twice a week, and most avoid this instructor's classes. Plus no one would want to attract the wrath of this lady, believe me.

I have to say here that plain physical abuse has been limited in the last 3 years to the current incident, plus breaking a student's arm 2 years ago. I heard that this instructor had many years ago physically attacked other female Yudansha, but I cannot confirm because I did not do aikido that time. During her classes you can hear 200 meters away her voice shouting at the students, using such words like stupid, jackass, buffalo (synonym to stupid in Thai). She would stand near the ear of the "stupid" party shouting the instructions into his ear, and the poor student completely confused, forgetting the little that he already knew about the technique. When demonstrating techniques, she likes to show domination such as by finishing the technique with her foot on Uke's neck or head, or pulling his/her hair, all this with a Napoleonic grandeur and self satisfaction. This cannot be called really physical abuse but it is rather an attack on the student's self esteem and honor, very similar to bootcamp style.
 
Old 06-16-2003, 02:31 PM   #62
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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I'd be outa there quick. I don't even want to see other people treated like that, let alone allow myself to be treated that way.

RT

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 06-16-2003, 07:22 PM   #63
Phillip Armel
Dojo: Almost Heaven
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I know it's uunfortunate that a 4th dan would assult a student because she got thrown a little harder then she wanted, but I can sympathize a bit with her. There could be more too this story than meets the eye. Perhaps the attacker was being a bit over-zealous and she asked him not too ect. I know those "sexist" remarks were over the line or w/e, but perhaps what he said could have some truth, but maybe they didn't apply too the situation. Lol, don't take it wrong I don't nessecarly agree, but I wouldn't go too crazy on him lol. I encounter alot of stuff like that at my dojo, so I might just be callous too it. Hmm, maybe she's not ready for the responsibility of being a 4th dan, there's more too ranking then just knowledge of the art. She should be repremanded, but I wouldn't replace her or anything, everyone makes mistakes and I'm sure she'll become a better aikidoka becase of it.
 
Old 06-16-2003, 07:49 PM   #64
paw
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Philip,
Quote:
She should be repremanded, but I wouldn't replace her or anything, everyone makes mistakes and I'm sure she'll become a better aikidoka becase of it.
right.... She has a history of this, or did you skip this part of the thread:
Quote:
On the other hand, I have mentioned earlier a 16 years old girl who was intentionally injured by the instructor, and had to apologize to the girl and her parents. Well this girl was a 2nd kyu, and she had a sister (2nd kyu) and a brother (shodan) training at the same dojo. After the "apologies", this instructor made their life such a living hell that the girls stopped aikido altogether, and the brother, who was a great aikidoka by the way, shows up only 3-4 times a year.
Don't know about you, but the word intentionally speaks volumes about her character.

Regards,

Paul
 
Old 06-16-2003, 07:57 PM   #65
Phillip Armel
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Ugh, I read the part about the history, but I still think she could overcome it. Her problem is obviously non-aikido related that needs too be adressed. I don't think booting her out would solve anything. Like I said before, if there's been a history of this, how did she get too 4th dan?
 
Old 06-19-2003, 06:57 AM   #66
drDalek
 
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Thank god I dont do hockey because my aunt (who does) once got some abuse like this from a coach and gave the coach a reason to make up stories about "falling down the stairs" if you know what I mean, and I think you do.

On a lighter note, my friend who was reading this over my shoulder gave me this advice in dealing with agressive women:

step 1: punch her on the boob

step 2: repeat step 1
 
Old 06-19-2003, 08:46 AM   #67
Qatana
 
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this is perhaps more offensive than the PMS remarks.tell your friend some of us may have some "advice" for him.

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
 
Old 06-19-2003, 09:08 AM   #68
SmilingNage
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errr your solution... the old boob punch. honestly I dont know why as an Aiki community we didnt come up with that one much sooner. Step out of line and its the old boob punch for you. Does that mean if H. Clinton runs for president I can boob punch her as well?

The reality of it all is, what comes around goes around. No doubt she will tweak the wrong person and the dividends will be paid in full. But the atmosphere of the dojo must be one that allows such behavior to propagate. So as much as we want to lay the full blame on her,and rightly so, there are others involved in this equation.

I would choose to walk away from this one.

Dont make me, make you, grab my wrist.
 
Old 06-19-2003, 09:56 AM   #69
Goye
 
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The problem is that she is showing a wrong image of Aikido. I don´t think Aikido has a definitive, unique and correct way of teaching, but I am sure she is doing something wrong.

I can´t imagine some body talking about an aikido dojo experience as a place like hell where there is somebody called Sensei that yells like a crazy person and abuse of his/her rank,....,.. personally I always tell my first day students that Aikido dojo is a place where you can come to enjoy a practice, relax, and also have fun.

Edward,.. i´m sure not all your partners in the dojo think like her but in the organization structure and mechanisms there is something that is not working well,....

does she or the chief instructor know about this thread?

César Martínez
Satori Dojo
 
Old 06-19-2003, 10:02 AM   #70
Glacius-Vector
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Grr!

I only lurk, and rarely post here, but I feel the need to chime in on this one.

In my limited Aikido experience, I know that when in the dojo you are not only humbling yourself, but allowing your body to be an instrument of practice -- and people must, (not can, not should) -- MUST respect that. Were I genuinely attacked, the whole "I'm humble, thank you, please teach me" stuff ends there.

She broke someone's arm?!? Come on now. I know people that will cut her ego down with a baseball bat just for a six-pack of beer. She needs to realize this is real life, and to respect her students.

I'm a grown man, and if another grown man/woman attacks me, that's the line, I'm out. You are not learning in a proper environment and your training will ultimately suffer no matter what.

Leave the dojo, any more banter on this topic is ridiculous.

Cheers,

Matthew D. Jordan

"Glacius-Vector"

http://madrant.com
 
Old 06-19-2003, 03:57 PM   #71
drDalek
 
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Quote:
Jo Adell (Qatana) wrote:
this is perhaps more offensive than the PMS remarks.tell your friend some of us may have some "advice" for him.
Neither of us realy punch girls but if you are spoiling for a fight I'll tell my aunt.

Let me just remind you though that the brutal game of death they play in "The Running Man" with Ahnuld Swarchenegger(?) pales in comparison with womens hockey.
 
Old 06-19-2003, 05:16 PM   #72
Janet Rosen
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I don't care in what country it occurs, or whether its in the context of religion, martial arts, or politics: when you have a group of people who abdicate personal responsibility to a leader who abuses them, and who ingratiate themselves to said leader by taking care of his/her needs, and who shut out and punish those who question it, you have by definition a cult.

If you wish to train in aikido, find a real aikido dojo.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
 
Old 06-19-2003, 05:48 PM   #73
deepsoup
Dojo: Sheffield Shodokan Dojo
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Quote:
Wynand van Dyk (drDalek) wrote:
Neither of us realy punch girls but if you are spoiling for a fight I'll tell my aunt.
Mr Van Dyk,

The signal to noise ratio on this thread already isn't that great, so maybe you could just keep this kind of sexist tripe to yourself. Its offensive and its stupid.

Sean.
 
Old 06-19-2003, 08:24 PM   #74
David Yap
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Dear all,

The reality in an aikido dojo or any martial art dojo for that matter is that there are people who continue to wear their ego despite attaining high dan grades.

I have seen an instructor putting a san-kyo lock on his student with one hand and then looked into the mirrors to adjust his hair while the student was tapping out in pain. I showed my disgust with feet. I walked out of the dojo and told myself never to train with this guy again.

IMO, the guy did not have the (aikido) skill to match his ego in the first place.

Regards

David
 
Old 06-20-2003, 01:12 AM   #75
Edward
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Latest update:

I heard from second hand sources that the organization's position on this issue is that an aikido instructor can never be expected to apologize to a student. The instructor has been privately reprimanded, and that's it. If the student wishes to continue practicing, that's fine, but that's as far as the organization is willing to go.

Of course I repeat that this is second hand information and might not be very accurate.
 

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