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Old 06-11-2003, 06:26 PM   #26
zachbiesanz
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Quote:
Jo Adell (Qatana) wrote:
Andrew,Jaxon, how old are you?
More nearly than any of his predecessors, Andrew Jackson was elected by popular vote; as President he sought to act as the direct representative of the common man.

Born in a backwoods settlement in the Carolinas in 1767, he received sporadic education. But in his late teens he read law for about two years, and he became an outstanding young lawyer in Tennessee. Fiercely jealous of his honor, he engaged in brawls, and in a duel killed a man who cast an unjustified slur on his wife Rachel.

Let's see, I guess that would be 236 or so. But this thread is about a violent outburst, not "Old Hickory" and his history. Please stay on topic; and no joking around.

Aikido is the art of hitting an assailant with the planet.
 
Old 06-11-2003, 07:26 PM   #27
Qatana
 
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er, huh? i was being serious. are you being sarcastic? you do it well.

Q
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"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
 
Old 06-11-2003, 08:03 PM   #28
Edward
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Quote:
Drew Ames (jxa127) wrote:
More to the point: Edward, why did you post this here? What sort of response are you looking for? (These are honest questions, I'd really like to know.)

Regards,

-Drew
Well, I actually intend to compare the reactions on these forums (the public opinion, so to speak) with the one from the concerned organization and see if they coincide or differ.

I myself was very angered by what happened and thought that strong measures should be taken against the instructor. I wanted to see if others would share the same position. Unfortunately, I haven't seen any action so far from the organization. I assume that the instructor must have been reprimanded privately, but that's as far as it went. The student has not been seen in the dojo since the incident.
 
Old 06-11-2003, 08:17 PM   #29
Steven
 
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Too funny!


Quote:
Zach Biesanz (zachrocksteady) wrote:
More nearly than any of his predecessors, Andrew Jackson was elected by popular vote; as President he sought to act as the direct representative of the common man.

Born in a backwoods settlement in the Carolinas in 1767, he received sporadic education. But in his late teens he read law for about two years, and he became an outstanding young lawyer in Tennessee. Fiercely jealous of his honor, he engaged in brawls, and in a duel killed a man who cast an unjustified slur on his wife Rachel.

Let's see, I guess that would be 236 or so. But this thread is about a violent outburst, not "Old Hickory" and his history. Please stay on topic; and no joking around.
 
Old 06-11-2003, 08:51 PM   #30
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Well I hope the student returns - if only to show that one persons attrocious behaviour will have no effect.

By the way 4th Dan male or female, big or small, should be sanctioned. Banned for a month sounds about right along with an unqualified public appology. The 2nd kyu should of course save the 4th Dan a bit of face saying something about overdoing it a bit whether they did or not.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
 
Old 06-11-2003, 10:31 PM   #31
darin
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I read somewhere that if you don't be careful karate will make you an aggressive person, judo a stupid person and aikido an arrogant person.

Raining in Himeji Peter?
 
Old 06-11-2003, 11:03 PM   #32
Edward
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I am not trying to be mean here, but it seems the same instructor has 2 years ago severely injured the arm of a 16 year old female student with whom she had issues because she used to "talk a lot in class". The instructor had to formally apologize to the girl and her parents in a private meeting.

It is very unfortunate that such psychologically unstable people are allowed to teach children such a potentially dangerous thing as a martial art. Perhaps France has so far the best system in which you have to pass severe exams done by the government in order to be given an instructor's certificate in any martial art or other physical activities.

Last edited by Edward : 06-11-2003 at 11:10 PM.
 
Old 06-12-2003, 02:51 AM   #33
happysod
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I find myself rather saddened that many have chosen to use gender to avoid the main issue, high-ranking dan grade attacks kyu grade. Seems simple to me, the dan grade should have been removed from the association, not just the dojo.

As for Peter's kyu grade should help "save face" in any apology - why? Is the honour (and ego) of a dan grade much more important than that of a lowly kyu grade and should be cosseted?

Andrew, you're playing awkward sod again, suggest you stick to being "meathead fighter" rather than therapist, much more convincing and entertaining.
 
Old 06-12-2003, 04:51 AM   #34
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Ian Hurst (happysod) wrote:
As for Peter's kyu grade should help "save face" in any apology - why? Is the honour (and ego) of a dan grade much more important than that of a lowly kyu grade and should be cosseted?
Because a little bit of face saving effort takes the edge off the humiliation and believe me a 4th Dan having to appologize to a kyu grade is just that. I am not talking about meeting in the middle but am talking about leaving an opening for better relations.

In Japan you often hear someone use the term "excuse me" or "sorry" when the other party was clearly at fault. It's an easy habit to pick up and does wonders in restoring wa - it does not imply guilt. Conversly I collided with a lady in Amercia shortly after I left Japan (both of us were not paying as much attention as we should have) and after I appologized she got real "well I should hope so" on me. Which way is better?

Anyway - its my night to volunteer my time and abuse the kids at the Judo dojo.

Cheers

Last edited by PeterR : 06-12-2003 at 04:53 AM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
 
Old 06-12-2003, 06:43 AM   #35
Michael Neal
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Quote:
The 2nd kyu should of course save the 4th Dan a bit of face saying something about overdoing it a bit whether they did or not
I have a feeling that this 2nd kyu will not be returning.
Quote:
do not fly into a fit of rage, nor do most women when suffering from PMS!
I beg to differ with you regarding the PMS!
Quote:
Political correctness and just common courtesy should make us all sensitive to such comments.
Although I am amused by this thread I do think that there should be some courtesy. This guy is really crossing the line.

However to hell with political correctness,the only reason it is inapproriate here is becasue this is an Aikido forum not an open chat, and this is a serious subject that someone is trying to resolve.

As far as making fun of women in general, I find nothing wrong with it. They sure do not hold back on us. Have you watched any TV lately, every show or commercial I see features a woman as the "smart" head of the household with a bumbling idiot husband always doing stupid things.
 
Old 06-12-2003, 08:09 AM   #36
happysod
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Peter, a similar "manners" option regarding apologies does exist in the UK, but this is normally only used when there was no deliberate intent. In this case we are discussing a deliberate, violent attack. Any face saving would, in my opinion, be an unacceptable gain for the aggressor, diluting the actual facts of the transgression.

Michael, agree with you over your TV comment, but I've never held TV producers to be the acme of wit or social commentary. However, regarding PMS, research has implied that men in long-term relationships also suffer from the hormonal effects their partners are experiencing, how often have you suggested your male sensei's manner is different for this reason? (and let's not discount male menopause etc. etc)

As far as aikido is concerned, I've never noticed any significant difference between practicing with an experienced woman or an equivalent male other than the normal differences in physical type, which aren't always skewed towards the male practitioner. I emphasise experience as I've noticed there is still an artificial difference between male and female beginners regarding agression and "acceptable violence", but this soon passes. With this view I still have no problem with severely censoring the 4th dan in question.

Edward, thanks for keeping us informed.
 
Old 06-12-2003, 09:22 AM   #37
paw
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Here's my attempt at humor.....
Quote:
She just stood and attacked him while he was still kneeling, waiting to receive the next Uke. Fortunately the weight and size difference between the 2 parties was too great for her to cause any serious damage to the student.
I thought size didn't matter in aikido?

Seriously,

If the dojo were mine to run:

The instructor would be expelled immediately. The attacked student would be given 3 months free training. The entire student body would be informed of what occured and made clear such behavior will never be tolerated.

If I trained in such a dojo:

I would immediately train elsewhere. If there wasn't another place to train, I would stop training altogether, unless the owner/operator/chief instructor expelled this instructor. (I presume this has not occured)

But then again....I'm evil.

Regards,

Paul
 
Old 06-12-2003, 09:30 AM   #38
akiy
 
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Hi folks,

This thread has been trimmed a bit to the topic on-hand. I hope the discussion will continue in a civil manner from now...

-- Jun

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Old 06-12-2003, 11:06 AM   #39
mj
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Almost exactly the same thing happened to me a few years ago...

I started aikido in 1999 at a club in my town and trained diligently for 2 years and even managed a week long summer camp in 2000. (Hi to anyone who was in Durham)

At the club there was one dan who was always moody, he regularly shouted and swore at the kyus. I should add he was not always like this..only frequently. His actions were always ignored by the sensei.

(Almost amusingly, once a visitor came and saw the way that this dan acted, thought it was the club's way...and slapped a 25 year old male beginner hard in the face for not attacking 'properly'. You look back and see the humour)

The club did not have a spread of grades, merely beginner adults up to 4th kyu and dans.

The kyu grades would often find something better to do if they knew that our mercurial friend was going to be there if the sensei was not taking the class.

So anyway...one night (, my 2nd last at the club,) he was in a bitch of a mood. Sensei had not appeared to teach the class and the class was unsettling from the start, we had a guy who had only been twice and he was sworn at and hit in the stomach, an older woman was shouted and sworn at in a personal manner. After both of these incidents I quietly approached each of them and did my best to settle them. Not quietly enough, apparently

The tempestuous dan chose me for the next practice, during which the teacher (another first dan) had to correct him for a basic error (I remember thinking 'Jeez, just what I need') and he just went....very...very....quiet

I held his wrist for him to apply the (stationary) technique, caught one look of his eye, and dropped as fast as I could...and he went flying over me and landed on his ass...he had tried to hit me...to actually physically thump me and I had recognised the intent and just dropped to my knees.

As I sat on the ground totally bemused he came up behind me and booted me in the back and arm...swearing like my wife. (I am small light and thin, but decades of judo have made my back as tough as a seamstresses thumb).

He asked me 'outside', red-faced and spitting...I turned to the other Dan and said something along the lines of 'Are you going to get a control of your class?' (Pure aikido, I thought at the time) At which Mr Angry stormed off the mat.

An hour or so later, I started to react furiously to what had happened, in fact I started a topic on Aikiweb about abusive Dans.

Once the sensei heard what had happened (News Headlines: Guy who deserves what he gets, gets it!) the sensei laid the blame at my door. Not an entirely amicable departure. I saw the sensei some time later in town and gave him a printout of the discussion on AikiWeb and I was pleased with the apoplectic rage I caused

 
Old 06-12-2003, 01:28 PM   #40
shihonage
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Quote:
Ian Hurst (happysod) wrote:
Andrew, you're playing awkward sod again, suggest you stick to being "meathead fighter" rather than "the rapist", much more convincing and entertaining.
Fixed.
 
Old 06-12-2003, 02:45 PM   #41
fotomaniak
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higher rank allowed to "save face"?

Quote:
Ian Hurst (happysod) wrote:
As for Peter's kyu grade should help "save face" in any apology - why? Is the honour (and ego) of a dan grade much more important than that of a lowly kyu grade and should be cosseted?
Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
Because a little bit of face saving effort takes the edge off the humiliation and believe me a 4th Dan having to appologize to a kyu grade is just that.
Peter, I must disagree with you on this.

First of all appology should be given regardles of the rank. And it's up to the student who was attacked to decide wether to accept it, don't accept it or accept it and play "face saving game"

I believe this is true regardless of the people involved. In the dojo, outside the dojo, does not matter. If I've done an ugly thing, and sincerely sorry then I'll apologise for it, I will not try to "save face" by finding an excuse.

I think the dojo context does not change the situation... Let's look at what happened: one person attacked another person. Now, the one who has attacked should appologize. That's it.

Your post implies that when a higher ranked student appologizing to a lower ranked student he is granded a chance to "save the face". Why is that? Just because of his rank/years of practice? but the incident only shows that after all these years of practice this person still has a lot to work on. Why not start from sincerely apologizing?!

Yes, making an appology can feel humiliating, but I don't see why it should be more humilliating to appologize to a lower ranked student? Is the lower ranked student somehow considered not worthy of an apology?

Regards

Igor
 
Old 06-12-2003, 05:21 PM   #42
Ta Kung
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Just to ad more fuel to the fire of "embarassing apology" thingy:

Please do inform me how making an appology for acting like an arse, is more embarassing than doing what she did in the first place?

If I did something like that (not a chance!) the only way to save face would be to appologize. And as far as I'm concerned, that would still not cut it.

Best wishes,

Patrik
 
Old 06-12-2003, 05:55 PM   #43
PeterR
 
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Re: higher rank allowed to "save face"?

Quote:
Igor Shteynberg (fotomaniak) wrote:
Your post implies that when a higher ranked student appologizing to a lower ranked student he is granded a chance to "save the face". Why is that? Just because of his rank/years of practice? but the incident only shows that after all these years of practice this person still has a lot to work on. Why not start from sincerely apologizing?!
Where did I say it had to do with a difference in rank, or sex or whatever. It has nothing to do with right or wrong but social lubricant.

Every one knows who was at fault, who is being put on the spot and who is making the gesture.

This is a very Eastern way of dealing with things and in my mind superior from the polarizing approach typical of the West.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
 
Old 06-12-2003, 08:54 PM   #44
Edward
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News update:

The student has been asked by the head instructor to resume training as if nothing happened. He however demanded an apology from the the 4th dan before returning to training. Nothing happened so far.

On the other hand, I have mentioned earlier a 16 years old girl who was intentionally injured by the instructor, and had to apologize to the girl and her parents. Well this girl was a 2nd kyu, and she had a sister (2nd kyu) and a brother (shodan) training at the same dojo. After the "apologies", this instructor made their life such a living hell that the girls stopped aikido altogether, and the brother, who was a great aikidoka by the way, shows up only 3-4 times a year.

Therefore, I am not sure if the apologies in this case would solve the problem but probably make it worse. Forgot to mention that the 4th dan instructor is the right hand of the head instructor and basically controls every thing from A to Z, including member subscriptions, training fees, grading application forms... etc, not only for that particular dojo, but for the whole country, which makes moving to another dojo pointless. So basically she is in a position to cause a lot of damage.

Last edited by Edward : 06-12-2003 at 08:58 PM.
 
Old 06-12-2003, 09:11 PM   #45
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Edward Karaa (Edward) wrote:
Therefore, I am not sure if the apologies in this case would solve the problem but probably make it worse. Forgot to mention that the 4th dan instructor is the right hand of the head instructor and basically controls every thing from A to Z, including member subscriptions, training fees, grading application forms... etc, not only for that particular dojo, but for the whole country, which makes moving to another dojo pointless. So basically she is in a position to cause a lot of damage.
Yuck - massive sympathies to that student and anyone else exposed to that mess.

Maybe Bob should think about expanding.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
 
Old 06-12-2003, 09:44 PM   #46
YEME
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are we going for trial by mob?

i agree with John Riggs. We don't know what exactly happened.

What i have a problem with in this story is the amount of tolerance that other students at this dojo seem to give to what sounds like abusive and potentially legal action inspiring manner.

I am not condoning abusive behaviour on anyone's part, but wouldn't a group response gain better results? How do other students at this dojo feel about what has occured and what should be done, and have numbers dwindled since?

that's my vague 2 cents worth.



i'll go sharpen my guillotine now...

Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome.
--Isaac Asimov

 
Old 06-12-2003, 10:40 PM   #47
DaveO
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Hello all; please allow me to toss my own two needless cents into the fray.

First; we must say we don't know the entire story; so therefore cannot provide a completely informed opinion. Edward has stated however that this and other events he has witnessed first-hand; so unless he's particularly suceptible to hypnosis (j/k), we must accept what he's saying as fact, or say he's lying - something I certainly have no cause to do.

As a teacher; I find any assault of a techer on a student to be both criminal and reprehensible. As a teacher in any field; you are placed in a position of trust over your students - to violate that trust, particularly in such a violent manner, is the worst thing any teacher can do. In my opinion, there is no way this person should be allowed to teach.

Let's look at the particulars of the crime: Edward stated she attacked the student nage after he threw her 'harder than her ego expected'. Forgive me; but even accounting for the fact that ego is no cause for violence; was this Yondan not trained in ukemi? 4th Dan my be an average level to some; but it's astronomically high to one way down at my level. I personally know no yudansha whos ukemi cannot handle any throw under any circumstance on the mat - and know of very few who do not insist a student nage perform a technique to maximum effect. The throw was not the cause of the attack - simply an excuse.

For this reason; I find myself in the uncomfortable position of disagreeing with Peter - I generally don't. While I agree that excusing onesself in an accidental bump is only polite; what this teacher did is wholly and completely inexcuseable; she should have been removed on the spot. Were I Sensei of this dojo; I wouldn't have bothered to demand an apology; based on her prior reported behaviour; it is highly doubtful that an apology would be sincere. No; my response would have been "get out now!"

That's my opinion on the matter; thanx for letting me spout.

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
 
Old 06-12-2003, 11:19 PM   #48
PeterR
 
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I'm being painted into a corner here.

The action deserves condemnation and sanction - I never said otherwise. What I did and still do suggest for whoever the offended party is - not to see the above as a personal victory but to look for the future.

Still as the News Update pointed out this is not an isolated incident and looks like someone thinks they are untouchable. New dojos have been started up for less.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
 
Old 06-12-2003, 11:33 PM   #49
Kevin Wilbanks
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Quote:
Edward Karaa (Edward) wrote:
News update:

The student has been asked by the head instructor to resume training as if nothing happened. He however demanded an apology from the the 4th dan before returning to training. Nothing happened so far.

On the other hand, I have mentioned earlier a 16 years old girl who was intentionally injured by the instructor, and had to apologize to the girl and her parents. Well this girl was a 2nd kyu, and she had a sister (2nd kyu) and a brother (shodan) training at the same dojo. After the "apologies", this instructor made their life such a living hell that the girls stopped aikido altogether, and the brother, who was a great aikidoka by the way, shows up only 3-4 times a year.

Therefore, I am not sure if the apologies in this case would solve the problem but probably make it worse. Forgot to mention that the 4th dan instructor is the right hand of the head instructor and basically controls every thing from A to Z, including member subscriptions, training fees, grading application forms... etc, not only for that particular dojo, but for the whole country, which makes moving to another dojo pointless. So basically she is in a position to cause a lot of damage.
The situation sounds worse every time you describe it. Contrary to what you conceive, things like this are not common to dojos everywhere, and in fact would put most US dojos out of business in a hurry. I don't think many americans would give their money and free time to be part of something like that.

Unfortunately, what you say about the history and the relationship between this person and the chief instructor leads me to put the blame on the chief instructor, and hence, most likely the whole organization.

How can I put this? If your house is littered with rotted feces, it doesn't matter whether it came out of your ass or not, it's your responsibility to clean it up. In a hierarchical organization, one must fault the one in charge. Only someone far too oblivious to be an Aikido shihan or sensei could keep such a petty, abusive person on as their first officer obliviously.

If you have the hair for it, I suggest confronting the head instructor and calling him/her to task for allowing someone like that to act on his/her behalf. If the situation is as you describe, I would tell the instructor what I thought and let the chips fall where they may. If I cared enough, and thought the danger to minors was great enough, I'd probably look into the options in terms of legal recourse.

K.
 
Old 06-12-2003, 11:54 PM   #50
Edward
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Quote:
Anna Thompson (YEME) wrote:
What i have a problem with in this story is the amount of tolerance that other students at this dojo seem to give to what sounds like abusive and potentially legal action inspiring manner.
Anna, I don't know how it is in your country, but here in Thailand what you imply about a group protest is unthinkable. Thais have such a blind respect for authority, and do not look at things with the critical eye we westerners do.

At this dojo, we are only a few expats, the vast majority of the students being Thai.

The said teacher has succeeded in almost hypnotizing a large group of students, mostly white and orange belts, into believing she's a great aikido master, and they follow her faithfully wherever she goes. You wouldn't believe the kind of verbal and sometimes physical abuse in her classes, which are closer to a military bootcamp than an aikido practice. Of course, being a part of the group of her close devotees entails good advantages in terms for belt promotion, and less abuse in class, but also involves responsibilities like doing errands for her, taking her out for dinner after training... etc. The strange thing is that the students seem to be so happy to be abused by her, looking up at her as a great martial artist and role model.

I confess to have been part of her group when I started aikido, but of course I had to withdraw myself gradually as I became aware of what was expected from me.

I was almost convinced at the time that she had the right to break the poor girl's arm because she and her family were disruptive elements in the dojo who did not respect the sanctity of the place and deserved a punishment. In her opinion that time, the master can do anything he wants with the student as part of his Budo education and cannot be asked to apologize to a student, something which she considered shameful and humiliating.
 

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