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Old 06-03-2003, 01:24 PM   #26
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Question for the original poster:

What do Wado ryu teachers do if a skilled bjjer or MMA comes in, and shoots on and takes down a student or teacher and submits them on the floor? How do they react, how do they explain how to stop a shoot? Do they say "that's not the technique we're working on?" Does a fight break out?

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 06-03-2003, 03:38 PM   #27
Kensai
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Challenges are an unpleasant business from what I understand. The head Sensei of the organisation I am part of fought a lot of challenge fights in the 70's- 80's when Aikido was new to the Martial arts world. Well in the west anyway.....

He mentioned Judoka specifically, but there were other styles too that came to challenge the new "skirt" wearing warriors. He discribed it as "I span the wheel, its their fault if they put their finger in."

"Minimum Effort, Maximum Effciency."
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Old 06-03-2003, 04:11 PM   #28
siwilson
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Quote:
Chris Gee (Kensai) wrote:
Sensei K Williams, the guy that brought Aikido to the UK
Hi Chris

When was that, because I have not heard him credited with this?

Osu!
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Old 06-03-2003, 04:15 PM   #29
siwilson
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Moreover Ron, what would a Wado Ryu Karateka do it a skilled Aikidoka came in and did kokyu nage against all his strikes!


Osu!
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Old 06-04-2003, 06:25 AM   #30
batemanb
 
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Quote:
Si Wilson (siwilson) wrote:
Hi Chris

When was that, because I have not heard him credited with this?
Quote:
Chris Gee (Kensai) wrote:
Sensei K Williams, the guy that brought Aikido to the UK is very much of the opinion that Aikido is not a Martial art, is a BUDO art.
Not wishing to hijack this thread, I was just about to comment on the same thing. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think that Ken Williams was the person who actually bought Aikido to the UK, although he was one of Abbe Sensei's (the person credited with bringing Aikido to the UK) first Aikido students (if not the first), and a key person in the development of British Aikido.

See here for more info http://www.angelfire.com/al/ellisaikido/origins.html

or here for an interesting account.

http://www.angelfire.com/al/ellisaikido/aikidotod.html

Regards

Bryan

Last edited by batemanb : 06-04-2003 at 06:28 AM.

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 06-04-2003, 07:26 AM   #31
MikeE
 
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Here's my opinion.

To give and receive proper energy in an attack uke & nage must come in with shoshin even though they may know what is going to happen.

Many techniques can be thwarted because uke knows what is going to happen and may consciously or subconsciously counter what is happening.

My thoughts: the Sensei in question needed to blend. If no one can resist nonresistance, then he could have henka-ed into a different technique thereby leading uke's mind and giving the karateka nothing to resist. He may not have demonstrated exactly what he wanted, but, he would have demonstrated the flexibility inherent to aikido.

Final thought: My aikido is chock full of atemi.

Mike Ellefson
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Old 06-04-2003, 08:39 AM   #32
Ta Kung
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If your sensei says that Aikido is not a martial art, and does not contain atemi, join another dojo. Your sensei obviously knows nothing about what he's teaching.

/Patrik

PS. How does he define Aikido? Dancing with skirts?
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Old 06-04-2003, 01:21 PM   #33
Kensai
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Sorry guys, my fault with the creadiation on that one. I completely misquoted, what I meant was that he is one of the leading members of the Aikido community in the UK. Ofcourse Abbe Sensei brought Aikido to the UK, but Sensei Williams stayed on many years after, infact until this day still teaching in the UK.

Sorry again for my incredably poor explaination, no disrespect intended.

"If your sensei says that Aikido is not a martial art, and does not contain atemi, join another dojo. Your sensei obviously knows nothing about what he's teaching."

No disrespect to your opinion, but I'll go with my Sensei's ideas of Aikido, born of some 30-40 years experience, both here in the UK and Japan.

"Minimum Effort, Maximum Effciency."
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Old 06-04-2003, 02:49 PM   #34
Kensai
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However, perhaps I should not talk of what I really do not understand. All I have to go on and truely believe in, is the faith that my Sensei are sending me in the right direction.

"Minimum Effort, Maximum Effciency."
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Old 06-05-2003, 01:35 AM   #35
batemanb
 
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Chris,

I've not trained with him myself, but I've only heard good things about Ken.

Patrik,

Go check the links in my above post, Ken Williams certainly does know what he's about. The comments about atemi were probably generalized referring to "some" dojo's outside his, but I don't believe that he was applying it to "all" dojo's, I may be wrong.

I did a ninin dori last night for the first time in over 2 years. Two very strong committed ukes who caught me more than once (took me down once too!), it was not pretty, and ended up with me completely disregarding (read, forgetting) all techniques except atemi (read, desperation). Still, that's what we practice for.

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 06-05-2003, 02:58 AM   #36
PeterR
 
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This didn't sound right so I skipped back and read what was originally said by Chris.
Quote:
Patrik Eng (Ta Kung) wrote:
If your sensei says that Aikido is not a martial art, and does not contain atemi, join another dojo. Your sensei obviously knows nothing about what he's teaching.

Patrik

PS. How does he define Aikido? Dancing with skirts?
Quote:
Patrik Eng (Ta Kung) wrote:
Firstly if the Sensei did not take your balance then ofcourse the throw should not work. There is no need for atemi if you have there balance.

Second, as for Aikido being a Martial art or not, I think its a very fine line. Sensei K Williams, the guy that brought Aikido to the UK is very much of the opinion that Aikido is not a Martial art, is a BUDO art. Although this may seem like petty samantics, its not, BUDO is in a since MORE than just a MARTIAL idea.
Firstly he doesn't say there is no atemi just that if you have their balance there is no need. I agree but of course if you don't have the kuzushi, atemi can be an effective means amoung others of obtaining it.

Secondly I also tend to agree that Martial Art is a poor translation of Budo. Martial Path is far more accurate considering the importance of the Do. A Budo is martial, it can even be considered artistic, but it is much more.

I suggest Patrik that you read a little bit more carefully before you poke fun.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-05-2003, 03:01 AM   #37
Kensai
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Cheers there Bryan, its strange really training with such a powerful guy, then going down the pub with him afterwards. Although actually, I am not his student, I am a student of his wife.

Here's the Ki Federation's website if your interested:

http://www.kifedgb.force9.co.uk/contents.html

In my very inexperienced opinion of Aikido, I see Atemi as the application of common sence. I believe that if you apply the basic prinicples of Aikido, ie from the one point (rule of mind) and having a light posture (rule of body), strikes can be incredabily powerful to set up for a immobilisation or projection.

"Minimum Effort, Maximum Effciency."
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Old 06-05-2003, 03:31 AM   #38
PeterR
 
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Sorry the second of my quotes above should have been attributed to Chris.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-05-2003, 08:07 AM   #39
George S. Ledyard
 
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Admirable Sentiment

Quote:
Chris Gee (Kensai) wrote:
"If your sensei says that Aikido is not a martial art, and does not contain atemi, join another dojo. Your sensei obviously knows nothing about what he's teaching."

No disrespect to your opinion, but I'll go with my Sensei's ideas of Aikido, born of some 30-40 years experience, both here in the UK and Japan.
If your teacher wishes to state that his style Aikido isn't a martial art and contains no atemi, that's fine and could be accepted at face value as true simply because he told you so.

But to use a blanket statement that Aikido is not and does not is quite plainly not true. Unless you are willing to maintain that all of these people who post on this forum, with a collective experience of literally thousands of years in virtually every style of Aikido out there, are largely wrong then you are stuck with the fact that most styles of Aikido are considered by their practitioners to be martial arts and definitely contain atemi.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
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Old 06-05-2003, 10:25 AM   #40
Kensai
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Actually, I never said that Aikido was not a martial art, I said it was a Budo art. But I am sorry for giving that impression.

"Minimum Effort, Maximum Effciency."
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Old 06-05-2003, 10:26 AM   #41
Kensai
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Plus I never commented on Atemi.......

"Minimum Effort, Maximum Effciency."
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Old 06-05-2003, 10:48 AM   #42
George S. Ledyard
 
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Quote

Quote:
Chris Gee (Kensai) wrote:
Plus I never commented on Atemi.......
This is what is referenced...

ORIGINAL POSTER
Quote:
Now the sensei is very annoyed. He delivers a speech in which he states that ‘Aikido has no atemi' and ‘this is not martial art'.

Also:
Quote:
"If your sensei says that Aikido is not a martial art, and does not contain atemi, join another dojo. Your sensei obviously knows nothing about what he's teaching."

YOUR REPLY

No disrespect to your opinion, but I'll go with my Sensei's ideas of Aikido, born of some 30-40 years experience, both here in the UK and Japan.

Last edited by George S. Ledyard : 06-05-2003 at 10:51 AM.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
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Old 06-05-2003, 03:55 PM   #43
Kensai
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"Now the sensei is very annoyed. He delivers a speech in which he states that ‘Aikido has no atemi' and ‘this is not martial art'."

That was not me.......

I never said the art I studied didnt contain atemi. I think, like my teacher, "martial art" discribes Aikido poorly. I never said you or anyone else had to believe this, sorry if it came over that way. I know from my research that someone such as yourself has a great understanding of Aikido, no disrepect intended from my earlier comments.

"Minimum Effort, Maximum Effciency."
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