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Old 06-05-2003, 07:23 AM   #26
Charles Hill
Dojo: Numazu Aikikai/Aikikai Honbu Dojo
Location: Three Lakes WI/ Mishima Japan
Join Date: May 2003
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Paul,

I think your response #2 is very apt and important, especially about education. However, I have found self deception running rampant in the martial arts, especially in the West. The main cause, as I see it, is a failure to really give one's self over to the process of training and learning. I see, again and again, martial artists running around, "absorbing what is useful, discarding the rest" without any kind of base.

From my experience, only those with a solid base (the kind that can only come from years of dedicated work) are able to set aside their first art to really learn the second art. Over and over, I see people come to an Aikido dojo with a few years of experience in another martial art, who have a much tougher time learning than the people who know nothing of the martial arts. I'm sure it's the same for Aikidoists who go to other m.a.s, as well.

As for your point #1, I think that if one cannot see where and with whom a problem lies, there is no way to correct it. So, yes, it does matter.

Charles
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Old 06-05-2003, 08:39 AM   #27
paw
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 768
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Charles,

I'll do this in reverse order:
Quote:
As for your point #1, I think that if one cannot see where and with whom a problem lies, there is no way to correct it. So, yes, it does matter.
I answered with a generic example in mind. I was thinking that an aikido instructor could be telling a particular student that their atemi is weak, and giving the student steps to correct this. The student, for whatever reason, know their atemi is weak, but can't seem to understand their aikido instruction's in resolving the problem. They train for a bit in a striking art and resolve the problem.

As I envisioned it, their aikido is now stronger (they have improved their atemi), so I would say everything is well and good.

My concern with elevating a style or an instructor is the student loses the ability to think and solve problems for themselves, which brings us to...
Quote:
However, I have found self deception running rampant in the martial arts, especially in the West. The main cause, as I see it, is a failure to really give one's self over to the process of training and learning. I see, again and again, martial artists running around, "absorbing what is useful, discarding the rest" without any kind of base.
Train dynamically. (Well, it might be referred to as "randori" or "free-play" or "jiyu waza" or "wrestling" or "rolling" or "sparring" or whatever....) Put people out on the mat and have engage each other without the roles of uke and nage. Everyone gets to see what they can and cannot do. The "base" is reaffirmed in this way, not by words, but by action. (How else can one assert what is "useful"?)

I don't disagree that self-deception isn't a problem. But self-deception and self-delusion are harder to maintain when everyone is bouncing you around the mat. At least, that's been my experience.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 06-05-2003, 09:18 AM   #28
Carl Simard
Location: Quebec City
Join Date: Jan 2002
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As many others, I will recommend judo. Before aikido, I have done judo for some years. IMHO, the two may complement each other quite well (and you can use the same gi for both!).

One thing that I liked in judo that, don't know why, hasn't been incorporated in aikido are the sweeps. Very effective when done well. Some of them could certainly have been included in aikido since they just follow the same basic principles: have good balance, good distance, good timing and just blend with your opponent...

By the way (but that may be another discussion), is there anyone who knows why sweeps haven't been included in the "catalogue of aikido techniques" ?
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Old 06-05-2003, 10:34 AM   #29
Kensai
Location: South West UK
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Do you mean stuff like O uchi or O soto?

"Minimum Effort, Maximum Effciency."
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Old 06-05-2003, 10:56 AM   #30
Carl Simard
Location: Quebec City
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Quote:
Chris Gee (Kensai) wrote:
Do you mean stuff like O uchi or O soto?
I don't remember all the names, but yes, I'm talking of that kind of sweep.

I remember some sweeps (but not the name, sorry), where you were just sweeping the advancing leg of your opponnent (during his move) when he's just about to put again his weight on it. The sweep could be done from the interior or exterior leg and a different name was given for both, but basically it was the same technique for both sweeps.

Would be simpler if I remembered the names, but I haven't put my feet on a judo mat since about ten years and just don't remember them (and my japanese is quite poor!).
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Old 06-05-2003, 12:33 PM   #31
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
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ashi (foot) barai (sweep)

RT

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 06-05-2003, 01:14 PM   #32
Carl Simard
Location: Quebec City
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Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
ashi (foot) barai (sweep)

RT
Yes! I remember that one! That's exactly the kind of foot sweeps I'm refering too! If I'm remembering correctly, it's one of the first basic sweep learned, at white or yellow belt level. But there was some others, more difficult, learned at higher levels...

I think more of that kind of sweep than the ones like O Soto Gari, which is as much a throw than a sweep...

Last edited by Carl Simard : 06-05-2003 at 01:29 PM.
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Old 06-05-2003, 01:42 PM   #33
Carl Simard
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Thinking of it, some names begin to come back. There was some other feet/legs sweeps called something like "Ko Soto Gari (or maybe it's barai)", "Ko Soto Gake"...
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Old 06-05-2003, 01:44 PM   #34
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Where's Peter Rehse when you need him...he's shodan in judo, so he might remember these names better than I...Glad to be of service...

Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 06-05-2003, 02:11 PM   #35
paw
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In the interim, you could try searching Judo Info's animated listing of throws

Regards,

Paul
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Old 06-05-2003, 06:14 PM   #36
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Where's Peter Rehse when you need him...he's shodan in judo, so he might remember these names better than I...Glad to be of service...
Not fair Ron - I am the five month Shodan. Principle driven - waza poor. And just not interested in the names.

Now ask me about an Aikido waza in the Shodokan repetoire and I will wax lyrical.

By the way the link Paul gave above is basically what I use.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-09-2003, 11:02 AM   #37
Cyrijl
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Quote:
I dont want to do a kick/punch MA because frankly just from observing some karate classes, I am bored to tears.
There are many more strking arts than karate...depending on your needs and goals, you might want to look around at other striking arts in order to complement your aikido.

Well, me, I do BJJ and know nothing of judo. I like BJJ because you can (in most schools) go all out. If you have a choice of a couple of schools, try to find one with some standup. In my school we don't do only groundwork. People many times don't understand that BJJ has quite a bit of standup techniques (i think from judo & jujitsu).

melior est canis vivus leone mortuo
Bog svsami!!!
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Old 06-11-2003, 09:47 AM   #38
Grappler
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Quote:
Joseph Connolly (Cyrijl) wrote:
People many times don't understand that BJJ has quite a bit of standup techniques (i think from judo & jujitsu).
And some standup techniques you wont find anywhere else (flying triangle choke!! )
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Old 07-21-2003, 11:30 PM   #39
Bryant Pierpont
Dojo: Yoshinkan Hombu Dojo
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Other arts

Try Tai Chi if you can find someone who teaches it as a martial art. It's very complimentary to Aikido.

Bryant Pierpont
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Old 07-22-2003, 03:30 AM   #40
ronmar
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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footsweeps

Quote:
I remember some sweeps (but not the name, sorry), where you were just sweeping the advancing leg of your opponnent (during his move) when he's just about to put again his weight on it. The sweep could be done from the interior or exterior leg and a different name was given for both, but basically it was the same technique for both sweeps.
Sweep advancing leg = de ashi barai (or harai)

reap advancing leg outside = ko soto gari

reap advancing leg inside = ko uchi gari

hook advancing leg outside = ko soto gake

etc

With ashiwaza like de ashi barai, the impetus for the throw comes mainly from anticipation of the opponents movement, ie you sweep the advancing leg just as weight is being transferred to it resulting in an "effortless" feel.

You set it up by imposing a stepping pattern on opponent eg step forward on right, step back again with a pull from your right hand, opponent will have stepped forward on his left foot due to the pull and will step forward on his right to even himself up, sweep his advancing right foot with your left as he does so.

ko soto and ko uchi are similar but the motion is less a sweep and more a reap (use your foot to lift opponents foot. More arm work is required for these throws. They are most often used as part of a combination.

The most visually impressive sweep is okuri ashi barai where you sweep one leg into the other on a sidestep and the opponent flies up into the air.
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