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Old 06-05-2003, 02:22 AM   #26
Edward
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Quote:
Reza Kauzar (sanosuke) wrote:
look at the bright side, every style still regards Ueshiba as O'Sensei. That means among the differences actually the style comes from the same source, only that it was adjusted to the time and personal preferences of the senseis themselves.
Hmmm,well, not all.... There are a few styles who believe they invented aikido before Osensei...
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Old 06-05-2003, 02:33 AM   #27
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Quote:
Edward Karaa (Edward) wrote:
Hmmm,well, not all.... There are a few styles who believe they invented aikido before Osensei...
- Peter drowns in his coffee cup.

But as a matter of point - I've never heard Ueshiba M. referred to as O'sensei in any JAA dojo. It is always Ueshiba sensei.

What about Yoshinkan?

I was under the impression that the O'sensei was a particular usage of some members of the Aikikai and Ki Society. As I understand it many members of the Aikikai simply refer to him as Kaiso.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-05-2003, 04:18 AM   #28
Nathan Pereira
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Well in my experience I can honestly say MU is never even mentioned in the Yoshinkan. Also unlike most we do not have his picture at the front of class just one of Shioda Sensei which I suppose is the same principal.

What about the other "styles" do you have MU as a figure head of your particular "style" founder.


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Old 06-05-2003, 04:36 AM   #29
PeterR
 
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Hi Nathan;

Aikido is pretty much teacher/student driven so as expected I mention my own teacher to my students far more than either Tomiki K. or Ueshiba M. and my teacher mentions Tomiki K. much more than Ueshiba M.. There is no Ueshiba cult in that he is a respected teacher in the path of transmission for what we do.

MU on the other hand in mentioned frequently enough - it means nothing and everything.
Quote:
Nathan Pereira wrote:
Well in my experience I can honestly say MU is never even mentioned in the Yoshinkan. Also unlike most we do not have his picture at the front of class just one of Shioda Sensei which I suppose is the same principal.

What about the other "styles" do you have MU as a figure head of your particular "style" founder.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-05-2003, 05:45 AM   #30
Nathan Pereira
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Thats the same for us and i think most Yoshinkan schools. As you said my teacher talks about the particular person in the Yoshinkan that we try to emulate and he in turn talks about Shioda Sensei as that was his direct teacher.

Glad you mentioned the "Ueshiba cult" thing as this is something that I am sort of facinated by but goes completely over my head.

Seems to much time is spent trying to figure out the man rather than the martial art. Each to there own I suppose.


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Old 06-05-2003, 08:31 AM   #31
Charles Hill
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Peter,

Could you describe what you mean by "Ueshiba cult?"

Charles
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Old 06-05-2003, 10:46 AM   #32
akiy
 
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Quote:
Reza Kauzar (sanosuke) wrote:
look at the bright side, every style still regards Ueshiba as O'Sensei.
Not necessarily. There are styles such as Nihon Goshin Aikido that do not have Morihei Ueshiba in their lineage at all.

And, yes, most folks in Japan who refer to Morihei Ueshiba call him "kaiso."

(Trivia: the kanji character used for "oo" in "O-sensei" is often not the kanji for "big" ("dai" -- 大 ) but is the one for "revered" ("okina" -- 翁 )...)

-- Jun

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Old 06-05-2003, 10:57 AM   #33
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Within the Jiyushinkai we respect Ueshiba Morihei Sensei as one of the teachers in our lineage. We don't refer to him as O-sensei.

We don't put pictures in our kamiza. On a back wall of the dojo we have pictures of the respected teachers in our history.

For the answer to the original question, look in the book "Best Aikido" in the answers to questions section. There's a very strong definitive statement about this. It should leave no doubt as to the "official" answer from the Ueshiba family.

Chuck Clark
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Old 06-05-2003, 11:48 AM   #34
ikkitosennomusha
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Hi Everyone!

There are a few organizations in the Aikido world but thre is only one Aikido. Aikido principles will forever remain the same but the variations, however, always has room to mutate. O-sensei said that he never did the same technique twice in the sense that a human cannot duplicate the exact angle, stance, etc as the previous technique if you were to repeat it. He also said that depending on the situation, you may have to create new techniques to fit the ordeal you are in.

So, if O-sensei were still alive, I believe his fundamental principles would remain the same but his ideaology would could continue to grow.
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Old 06-05-2003, 11:55 AM   #35
George S. Ledyard
 
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Quote:
C.E. Clark (Chuck Clark) wrote:
Within the Jiyushinkai we respect Ueshiba Morihei Sensei as one of the teachers in our lineage. We don't refer to him as O-sensei.

We don't put pictures in our kamiza. On a back wall of the dojo we have pictures of the respected teachers in our history.

For the answer to the original question, look in the book "Best Aikido" in the answers to questions section. There's a very strong definitive statement about this. It should leave no doubt as to the "official" answer from the Ueshiba family.
Clearly another heretical position. The Inquisition would like to speak to you about these ideas...

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
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Old 06-05-2003, 12:54 PM   #36
Matt Gallagher
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Didn't realise that some aikidoka might think that their particular style or organisation was "the true path" of aikido.

"a true path" might be a more accurate way to put it if it needs to be said at all.

Coming from "the false path" of Shudokan, I frequently find myself taking away ideas from students of other aikido styles and consider that training with these students is a great way not to stagnate and to keep learning and improving. I hope that don't ever close my mind to that, or ever become convinced that there is no value in learning from another path.

ps Shudokan Rules OK!

pps All other styles suck

Harhar

Happy training

Matt

Zanshin
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Old 06-05-2003, 01:40 PM   #37
Don_Modesto
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Quote:
C.E. Clark (Chuck Clark) wrote:
On a back wall of the dojo we have pictures of the respected teachers in our history.
Sorry. I'm not familiar with your organization. Who are your teachers? Thanks.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 06-05-2003, 06:03 PM   #38
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Jiyushinakai

Quote:
Don J. Modesto (Don_Modesto) wrote:
Sorry. I'm not familiar with your organization. Who are your teachers? Thanks.
Hi Don!

This is from Chuck Clark Sensei's website:

C. E. Clark, born 1947, began budo training at the age of six and has continued his practice through the present. Clark has studied in the U.S., France, Japan, Canada, and Republic of South Vietnam, and holds the ranks of Jiyushinkai Shihan, 8th dan, and 6th dan judo, (has also practiced karate do, jujutsu, Shinto Muso Ryu Jo and T'ai chi ch'uan). Clark has trained under a number of top-level teachers, and has been most strongly influenced by F. Fujita, R.L. Willingham, E. Cates, F. Hatashita, K. Geis, T. Miyake, P. Relnick, and T. Nishioka. He founded his own organization, the Jiyushinkai, in 1984. A U.S.M.C. veteran of Vietnam and former hospital manager, Clark is now a professional budo teacher at the Jiyushinkan in Tempe, AZ. He has a son, Aaron, two grand-daughters, a dog and a cat.

As long as this is it represents only the tip of the ice berg. As one poster earlier stated Chuck Clark Sensei should write a book...

- George

George S. Ledyard
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Old 06-05-2003, 06:17 PM   #39
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Re: Jiyushinakai

George,

My dojo is under the direction of some of Clark's students. However, we are more of a Fugakakai style than Jiyushinkai. We actually try to stay fairly eclectic as much as possible.


DAVE

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Old 06-05-2003, 06:49 PM   #40
Don_Modesto
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Re: Jiyushinakai

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
As long as this is it represents only the tip of the ice berg. As one poster earlier stated Chuck Clark Sensei should write a book...
Hi, George, and thanks.

I'd like to read that book, too. I quite enjoyed his seminar in Orlando a while back.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 06-05-2003, 07:25 PM   #41
siwilson
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On the O'Sensei question:

The Shudokan looks back at its lineage to O'Sensei and places the pictures of those Masters in our lineage who have passed away on our Shomen wall: Ted Stratton Sensei, Gozo Shioda Sensei, & O'Sensei.

Osu!
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Old 06-05-2003, 07:44 PM   #42
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Charles - you are lucky that you train in Japan. The "cult" tends to manifest itself outside usually amoung those who would never even think about coming to Japan but the source of much of it can be directly traced to those that have and continue to do so. Go figure.

Stick around the bulletin boards enough and you will see examples.

O'sensei was the greatest swordsman, most religious, most ....... This coupled with attributions to other god-like features and a near slavish attention to translated doka.
Quote:
Charles Hill wrote:
Could you describe what you mean by "Ueshiba cult?"

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-05-2003, 10:30 PM   #43
Charles Hill
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Peter,

I trained at the Aikikai Honbu for over four years and the only time I heard anyone talk about Morihei Ueshiba was in a beginner class taught by Okumura Shihan. That was only one time and I think he was answering someone's question. What does that mean? I have no idea.

Charles
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Old 06-05-2003, 11:16 PM   #44
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Hi Charles;

Your experience meshes with mine. Training is training - most of what I've got story wise was over beer. I remember several instances in the dojo where one particular teacher's views were explained but those instances are rare and usually associated with a special event.

Although I had watched a few Aikido classes before I came to Japan - I had never trained in the art. I had done other budo but not Aikido so its safe to say my Aikido view was colored primarily from what I experienced here. I was a little prepared for what I would face when I returned to the real world because of the Aikido mailing lists and for the most part everyone was fine but let's just say I was shocked by the fervor of a few people when I first faced it. Within Japan when I visit an Aikikai dojo I have always been welcomed with the most critical going only so far as to say there is no competition in Aikido. Once or twice (after I returned home) I was faced with a level of aggression by true believers that would make Atila the Hun wince.
Quote:
Charles Hill wrote:
Peter,

I trained at the Aikikai Honbu for over four years and the only time I heard anyone talk about Morihei Ueshiba was in a beginner class taught by Okumura Shihan. That was only one time and I think he was answering someone's question. What does that mean? I have no idea.

Charles

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-06-2003, 03:27 AM   #45
erikmenzel
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Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
Stick around the bulletin boards enough and you will see examples.

O'sensei was the greatest swordsman, most religious, most ....... This coupled with attributions to other god-like features and a near slavish attention to translated doka.
And of course they will defend their ideas and believes in such a manner that they trample on anyone claiming that O sensei was just a man who smoked and drank beer.

Erik Jurrien Menzel
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Old 06-06-2003, 04:19 AM   #46
Edward
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Quote:
Charles Hill wrote:
Peter,

I trained at the Aikikai Honbu for over four years and the only time I heard anyone talk about Morihei Ueshiba was in a beginner class taught by Okumura Shihan. That was only one time and I think he was answering someone's question. What does that mean? I have no idea.

Charles
I agree too. I have never heard any aikikai hombu instructor I've met talk about Osensei unless asked, and even in that case, they usually refered to him as Ueshiba Sensei.

On the other hand, I have the feeling that the new trend in the aikikai under the third doshu is to accomodate all aikido styles and develope friendly relations with every body.
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Old 06-06-2003, 04:57 AM   #47
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Edward Karaa (Edward) wrote:
On the other hand, I have the feeling that the new trend in the aikikai under the third doshu is to accomodate all aikido styles and develope friendly relations with every body.
I hope so - the relevant section is Best Aikido sure didn't give that impression.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-06-2003, 09:37 AM   #48
Peter Goldsbury
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Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
I hope so - the relevant section is Best Aikido sure didn't give that impression.
Hello Peter,

I have "Best Aikido" and also the Japanese original, which was published in 1997, just two years before Kisshomaru Doshu's death. The English translation is by John Stevens and it is, shall we say, 'delicate'.

How are your reading skills, by the way? Here is the Japanese original:

Q: 合気道の分派はあるのですか。

A: 確かに巷には合気道とは別に「○○合気道」と名乗っている団体が存在します。中には、素性の知らぬ訳の判らぬようなものもあるようです。

 しかし、開祖・植芝盛平に連ならないもの、その教えを逸脱したものは、いかに外見を似せようが、深遠そうな哲理を語ろうが、合気道ではありません。例えば、競技試合を行 っているようなものは明らかに合気道本来の姿を忘れたもので、合気道と呼ぶことはできません。

 私どもで言う合気道には分派は存在しないと考えています。分派がいくつもあるという考えは、それ自体が合気道を貶めるものでしょう。

This certainly goes against what one commonly sees on aikido bulletin boards, for example. I think the matter of 'kyougi-shiai' is one on which the Aikikai is unlikely to change its thinking for some time to come, even though it is against the current. FS and I discussed this on his recent visit to Hiroshima and our views actually differ.

That said, I suspect it is a common occurrence for the student to accept his/her teacher's view of the history of the art. Of course, different teachers place differing degrees of stress on history, but were this not to happen, I think it would be seen as questioning the teacher's integrity.

Actually, we have a picture of the Founder on the wall of the dojo. Unusually, it is right next to a picture of Jigoro Kano. My students were somewhat bemused when we put up the picture: they knew about Kano alright, but really had little clue of who Morihei Ueshiba was and are comparatively uninterested in history and we have never had any questions. Which is fine: it is the training that matters.

Best regards,

P A Goldsbury
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