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Old 05-27-2003, 03:25 AM   #1
Luke Derham
Dojo: Perth
Location: Western Australia
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Aikido - is aikikai the true path?

I guess there are always going to be varied responses on this topic, and for all i know it has been posted up and discussed previously,
but why doesn't everyone follow aikikai? Forgive my ignorance in this subject, since aikikai is all i've known - so things like shodokan aikido and various other split off groups seem strange to me, if aikikai indeed comes directly from O sensei.
Once again, no offense intended to other groups, just curious...

Luke D
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Old 05-27-2003, 05:46 AM   #2
Greg Jennings
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Why are there different religions? Different branches of the same religion?

Why are there different flavors of ice cream? Why are there different varieties of, say, vanilla?

More to the point, why are you trolling or tilting at windmills?

Sincerely,

Greg Jennings
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Old 05-27-2003, 07:37 AM   #3
jaxonbrown
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cuz everyone else is stupid

hahahah - j/k

but anyway, i guess its just human nature to 'officialize' things by forming organizations and ranks and neat looking patches. dont they realize that these things will do no good when a time comes to use their art?
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Old 05-27-2003, 07:55 AM   #4
opherdonchin
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
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Very often the question of 'why' can only be answered historically because there is no principled answer. Usually, it involved someone wanting to develop or pursue Aikido in a way that the framework at the time didn't accomodate. Sometimes, there can be two legitimate choices of direction and people can disagree about the best way to proceed without either of them being wrong. Sometimes, there were personality conflicts at the base of the splits. Sometimes both things happened.

Aikikai is certainly not my favorite style of Aikido, but it's an interesting one. Even within Aikikai, there is as much variety as there is homogeneity.

The real question is not which particular style O'Sensei would have approved of, but rather which style best suits your needs. If those needs include working in a style that traces the most direct possible lineage to O'Sensei, then Aikikai is a natural (but probably not the only) choice. There are, of course, lots of other good reasons to choose it.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 05-27-2003, 10:09 AM   #5
Charles Hill
Dojo: Numazu Aikikai/Aikikai Honbu Dojo
Location: Three Lakes WI/ Mishima Japan
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I feel it should be made clear that Aikikai is not a style but an organization. For example, the Aikido of Arikawa Shihan and Tada Shihan (both Aikikai Honbu teachers) is as dissimilar as the Aikido of Ueshiba Moriteru Doshu and Tohei Koichi Sensei (The respective heads of Aikikai and Ki Society.)

The important thing is to find a teacher you like and respect and study with him/her. If that teacher is a member of a particular organization, you should support that group by becoming a member as well. It's the individual teacher that you are going to have to spend a lot of time with, not any association.

Charles
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Old 05-27-2003, 10:21 AM   #6
BC
Location: Chicago, IL
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Quote:
Greg Jennings wrote:
Why are there different flavors of ice cream? Why are there different varieties of, say, vanilla?
The only true vanilla ice cream is French vanilla!

Robert Cronin
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Old 05-27-2003, 10:41 AM   #7
jeda
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In some cases (like my own) there may be a lack of choices.
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Old 05-27-2003, 02:06 PM   #8
Ron Tisdale
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I think there are different organizations because different students of Ueshiba decided to focus on the things **they** found most important in his teaching. Personality and personal preferences probably played a large role in this.

I agree that "aikikai" does not define a style, but merely an organization. Yoshinkan actually describes a teaching methodology, as well as a core set of techniques, as much as anything else. I think the same could probably be said of Shodokan...Peter Rhese will smack me around if this is incorrect...

I would disagree with the statement that "aikikai comes directly from the founder, and yoshinkan does not". Gozo Shioda spent more time with Ueshiba than many of the aikikai shihans...but in the end, so what? You look at what is available in your area, make the best choice possible, if information or opportunity later presents itself you reevaluate your choice. As appropriate. End of story.

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 05-27-2003, 02:24 PM   #9
Dennis Hooker
Dojo: Shindai Dojo, Orlando Fl.
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Oh yes, the only true path, unless you take another that is. Here is the only true Aikido.

http://www.aikiweb.com/humor/hooker2.html

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
https://www.createspace.com/238049

www.shindai.com
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Old 05-28-2003, 09:21 PM   #10
PhilJ
 
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Robert is right: french vanilla is the only true vanilla ice cream. Heheh.

Ron said it best. Aikido is a personal thing, everyone gets out of it what they want, not what's taught. That's what makes aikido so damn interesting. Look around in your own class, and think about what kind of classes your classmates would teach.

What saddens me is some people denigrate styles of aikido because some are too rough, too gentle, or give too many points to the winner. The "styles" of aikido don't highlight differences, but show how different viewpoints complement each other in the founder's vision.

*Phil

Phillip Johnson
Enso Aikido Dojo, Burnsville, MN
An Aikido Bukou Dojo
http://www.aikidobukou.com
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Old 05-28-2003, 10:59 PM   #11
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Phillip Johnson (PhilJ) wrote:
Robert is right: french vanilla is the only true vanilla ice cream. Heheh.
As I growl from the dark and flavourful side - chocolate. French vanilla is eaten by poodles.

Correct about Shodokan Ron although I will still slap you around a bit for mis-spelling my name. Any little excuse for a bit of gratuitous violence. Seriously I am gentler than the aforementioned poodles and besides that too far away.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-29-2003, 06:59 AM   #12
Abasan
Dojo: Aiki Shoshinkan, Aiki Kenkyukai
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The true path of aikido, lies in the one that works for you.

As for vanillas, I love them all.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 05-29-2003, 01:50 PM   #13
Dave Miller
 
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I have to agree with what has already been posted. I think that some of the debates between which style is best or truest to the founder's style can get kinda silly. An example of this is two Kihara guys sitting around poking fun at Tomiki-ryu. This is only funny if you know that Kihara came from Tomiki through Geist!

I would encourage you to investigate the various schools at your disposal and find one that fits you well, not only the style but also the instructors and other students.

Besides, everyone knows that strawberry is the original and perfect flavor of ice cream, handed down to man from the hand of God himself.


DAVE

If you're working too hard, you're doing it wrong.
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Old 05-29-2003, 08:49 PM   #14
jk
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Oh Lordy...you folks obviously haven't tried corn n' cheese ice cream.
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Old 05-29-2003, 09:49 PM   #15
PhilJ
 
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Peter, "Eaten by poodles". VERY funny, I laughed out loud on that one. (Not kissing *ss, but a good chocolate ice cream is my personal favorite)

When students visit our dojo, I invite them to sit in on class, then give them tips about finding a good dojo. Like the teacher, like the attitude, like the material -- these are great ways to ensure you'll love where you end up.

*Phil

Phillip Johnson
Enso Aikido Dojo, Burnsville, MN
An Aikido Bukou Dojo
http://www.aikidobukou.com
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Old 05-29-2003, 10:07 PM   #16
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Phillip Johnson (PhilJ) wrote:
When students visit our dojo, I invite them to sit in on class, then give them tips about finding a good dojo. Like the teacher, like the attitude, like the material -- these are great ways to ensure you'll love where you end up.
This is a really good idea. I think that a student who doesn't fit into a dojo put's everyone in a disadvantage. I love a warm body as much as the next but I really am more concerned about my present charges.

That said I don't turn people down or at least I never have. Tomorrows class should be interesting.

I've got two American Karate types and about three young ladies from work all joining. That's a fair chunk of my student base - should be an interesting dynamic.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-30-2003, 08:01 AM   #17
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Quote:
although I will still slap you around a bit for mis-spelling my name.
Ooops! that darn keyboard!

Hey, you never know, I could come to your neck of the woods just to collect that beating!

Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 05-30-2003, 08:09 AM   #18
Peter Goldsbury
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Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Ooops! that darn keyboard!

Hey, you never know, I could come to your neck of the woods just to collect that beating!

Ron
Hello Ron,

If you do, I'll come up from Hiroshima to watch

PAG

P A Goldsbury
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Old 05-30-2003, 09:34 AM   #19
Kensai
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IN answer to the oringal question, I would have to say no.

I see Aikido as a style thats teachs you how to be yourself. Every style of Aikido now and in the future will reflect its founders in some way, and so those of a like mind will join. For example, curel ruffiens will do Yoshinkan Aikido, Jocks will do Shodokan Aikido and the enlightened will do Ki Aikido..... lol.

Joking aside I see every path of Aikido as the true one, as its the one that applies to that person.

"Minimum Effort, Maximum Effciency."
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Old 05-30-2003, 09:41 AM   #20
Ron Tisdale
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Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury (Peter Goldsbury) wrote:
Hello Ron,

If you do, I'll come up from Hiroshima to watch

PAG
Fibber...you'd join in too, you know you would...



Ron

Actually, having probably seen both of us, you'd probably make money on the trip...
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Old 05-31-2003, 05:15 PM   #21
Alex Cox
Dojo: Aikido of Richmond, Wadokai Aikido
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The only style of Aikido that is truly "O'Sensei's Aikido" is the Aikido that O'Sensei taught himself. If you have a time machine, please share, as I'd love to take a class with O'Sensei.

Everything else is "O'Sensei's Aikido" from the perspective of one of his students.

The way I look at it, is if my sensei's lineage can be traced back to O'sensei, that's good enough for me.

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Old 06-01-2003, 03:12 AM   #22
siwilson
Dojo: Kenshinkai Yoshinkan Aikido
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Quote:
Alex Cox wrote:
The way I look at it, is if my sensei's lineage can be traced back to O'sensei, that's good enough for me.
I think this is the core of it. It is only Aikido if you can trace your lineage back to O'Sensei. The reason there are different "styles" and schools is because everyone is different. The various teachers between us all and O'Sensei in our lineages have effected the changes and then we effect changes ourselves.

This comes because we learn our teachers Aikido our way and later we find our Aikido.

Just like the chef - he makes his ice cream. I've tried a lot of ice cream and one french vanila can taste so different to another.

BTW, have you tried banana?


Osu!
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Old 06-01-2003, 03:59 AM   #23
Shelley
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and why there are PS2s, X-Boxes and GameCubes? wait, those things caused more fanboy wars than I ever wanted to know.

Oops, bad example.

All men can fly. But, only to one direction.

Love
Shelley
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Old 06-04-2003, 09:21 PM   #24
DanD
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Quote:
Opher Donchin (opherdonchin) wrote:
Aikikai is certainly not my favorite style of Aikido, but it's an interesting one. Even within Aikikai, there is as much variety as there is homogeneity.
Opher,

Can you add more on that ? (comparing to the school you're part of and in general).

Not to start a "war of the worlds"… . just curious.
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Old 06-05-2003, 12:54 AM   #25
sanosuke
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look at the bright side, every style still regards Ueshiba as O'Sensei. That means among the differences actually the style comes from the same source, only that it was adjusted to the time and personal preferences of the senseis themselves.
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