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Old 05-22-2003, 08:16 PM   #1
Thor's Hammer
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Grr! Cornered?

We always defend from attacks in Aikido. What happens when people don't attack? You maintain proper distance as they slowly push you into a corner where you can't move to do anything?
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Old 05-22-2003, 08:30 PM   #2
Nacho_mx
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It is Nage who has the initiative, because Nage is not passive, it does not wait or react to Uke´s action, actually is the other way around.
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Old 05-22-2003, 08:33 PM   #3
Kevin Wilbanks
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You should almost never keep ma ai by backing directly away from an attacker, as you have done nothing to change the situation and still have the exact same problem. Hence, they shouldn't be able to back you into a corner.

Also, there is plenty of agressive Aikido to be done on someone who isn't attacking. Watch someone who is good at multiple attacker exercises and you should see them catching people before they are ready to attack regularly.
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Old 05-22-2003, 10:01 PM   #4
PhilJ
 
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I agree with Ignacio, shodo o seisu (control first move) is indispensable. Some of us are pacifists, but not sacrificial lambs.

*Phil

Phillip Johnson
Enso Aikido Dojo, Burnsville, MN
An Aikido Bukou Dojo
http://www.aikidobukou.com
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Old 05-23-2003, 05:05 AM   #5
Greg Jennings
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Re: Cornered?

Quote:
Bryan Benson (Thor&#039s Hammer) wrote:
We always defend from attacks in Aikido.
If you dig a little, you'll find that this is not the case at all.

Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 05-23-2003, 06:04 AM   #6
Steven Scott
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Don't be backed into the corner.

An attack need not be a direct strike, a look, a step or a word are all attacks of sorts.

Remember Irimi Tenkan, move swifly withour fear as they approach - Masagatsu Agatsu Katsuhayabi.

Meet the action with its own reaction.

Then they are in the corner - through their actions.

Yours in Aiki
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Old 05-23-2003, 07:10 AM   #7
sanosuke
Dojo: Seigi Dojo
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Quote:
What happens when people don't attack?
Great!! there'll be no fight, just ask them to have some drinks in the nearby cafe.
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Old 05-23-2003, 07:42 AM   #8
kung fu hamster
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My attempts at randori remind me of Night of the Living Dead, somehow I always end up backing away with my hands up as the zombies try to get me.

- in the past my teachers have told me not to run backwards, instead I should cut around the attackers or 'throw uke away' and slip past - just don't get stuck in the middle. I think it's a very proactive role which is good for drilling practice in control of such a situation. I try to think of myself as a quarterback in the midst of hulking linebackers, trying not to get creamed. Doesn't usually help though!
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Old 05-23-2003, 08:34 AM   #9
Jeff R.
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If someone is focused on backing you up in any way, they have invested themselves in you. There are several things you can do to redirect, draw, elicit responses that will alter their "attack," give you an advantage in moving their center.

If one doesn't want to enter and take control of their center directly, there is the option to go around. One of the best atemi against someone who is backing you down without a full committment: pretend you're going to puke on their shoes. Do something totally out of context and, even if only for a second, it will shift their center enough for your next action.

There is one rule about personal space being the diameter around your body equal to the length of your outstretched arms. If they breach that space with their entire body, no striking attack, give 'em a big hug! Hugs are powerful, they either dissolve the attack, or they can drop the attacker on the floor. (Take it as a figurative concept. I don't think I'd recommend hugging a two-hundred-fifty pound, drunk, knife-wielding, jagged-toothed, body-pierced, schizophrenic.)

Maybe you're in the corner, but that just means there's more space behind them into which they can be tossed.

Exercise and extend your Ki with conviction; feel its awesome power--just smile.
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Old 05-23-2003, 08:41 AM   #10
kung fu hamster
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Hi Jeff,

Puking on their feet sounds good but I'm not so sure about the hugging part... wouldn't that form too much of an attachment with uke? I always thought nage is supposed to minimize the grabbing aspect and not 'attach' mentally or physically to any particular attacker?
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Old 05-23-2003, 08:47 AM   #11
Larry Feldman
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I've been told that long ago (before WWII) Aikido techniques featured you attacking the uke, they blocked you and as a 'counter' you applied Aikido to their attack.

You can enter and apply technique. My instructor has covered this in his 'Police Video' for officers that have to go on the offensive to arrest/control - someone. He covers a variety of scenarios, where the suspect (uke) knows you are a policeman, to where you are undercover. You can contact the Shin Budo Kai Hombu dojo in NYC (use the dojo search engine)and they do sell the video - it will give you a number of options.
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Old 05-23-2003, 09:29 AM   #12
twilliams423
Dojo: Hacienda LaPuente Aikikai
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You're at a party and an attractive member of the other sex is cutting you out of the pack. Gradually, you find yourself being herded back into a corner, apprehensive about what may be happening (don't you hate when this happens?). I've found the perfect solution. She's my wife.

Twenty one years of marriage and I haven't been faced with a problem like this since!

Viva la esposa con radar y mucho amor!

Tom
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Old 05-23-2003, 09:46 AM   #13
Jeff R.
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Quote:
Linda Morimoto (kung fu hamster) wrote:
Hi Jeff,

Puking on their feet sounds good but I'm not so sure about the hugging part... wouldn't that form too much of an attachment with uke? I always thought nage is supposed to minimize the grabbing aspect and not 'attach' mentally or physically to any particular attacker?
Yeah. I'm sorry; maybe it sounded too literal in my presentation.

Nage definitely wants to make a connection with Uke, but not on an emotional level. Investing ego into the situation leads to bias, fear, rage, etc. In fact, connecting with spirit means emptying ourselves of ego altogether, accepting the attack as a simple action in time and space, but not as a personal attack. Then, we can blend with Uke's movements even before they "happen."

As for the hugging; I present that as a concept. One of the things we try to do in Aikido is redirect the aggression and resolve it by sending Uke away. But the aspect of embracing Uke's approach is crucial as well. One of my favorite techniques from Yokomen is to literally hug Uke, but in a whirlwind, taking him down powerfully, but gently. An arm-bar naturally appears. But one of the most effective ways I've found to teach the technique is to imagine that Uke is a long-lost relative, drunk with too much excitement and they throw themselves at you. You give your long-lost relative a big hug. Nobody is hurt, the situation is resolved.

If the aggressor is approaching with their whole body, using it as a moving wall, they are making a connection, not a nice one necessarily, but something. They naturally respond to any movement we make. Opening the arms and stopping, instead of backing up on the defensive, really makes them pause in confusion. Of course you need to realize that you've just created openings, because the point is that they may strike, tackle/shoot, grab etc. By offering the "hug," you've just given Uke an option, and by realizing your openings, you've effectively drawn them into something for which you are (or really should be) prepared.

It's similar to feigning an attack, which Uke attempts to block, then using the block to execute a technique. It's just going in the opposite direction.

Something to think about, anyway.

Exercise and extend your Ki with conviction; feel its awesome power--just smile.
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Old 05-23-2003, 10:01 AM   #14
kung fu hamster
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Hi Jeff,

ah, I see. The old bait and switch, "you think you're gonna get a hug but instead you're gonna get an atemi" deal. I like it! Now that I see more posts I think I get a better idea of what he's asking, real life situations. Before aikido, I had a boss who had no clue about people's personal space, she would quietly sneak up behind you as you were busy working and whisper in your ear, dumb things like "You look stressed, I have Tums in my office if you need some." Problem was, I was concentrating so much that I never had a clue that I had 'openings' until it was too late. There was one very large fellow who sat in a tiny cubicle which allowed almost no room, and it was difficult for him to keep his legs together. Sometimes she would come into his office to talk to him and be practically standing between his legs, he had nowhere to go because his chair was backed up all the way in by the desk and he didn't even have room to stand up. He hated that but he didn't know what to say or do. Now that I've been studying aikido I think I would put up a rear-view 'Boss Buster" mirror on my computer and get up as soon as I see her on the horizon and maneuver around before she had a chance to move in. I keep trying to develop that 360 degree awareness radar, so I can avoid being trapped like that...

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Old 05-23-2003, 10:02 AM   #15
Daniel Mills
 
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Find yourself being backed into a corner?

Rolling over obstacles!

Even if you don't make it, you'll have at least clobbered them in the face with your feet..

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Old 05-23-2003, 10:34 AM   #16
Jeff R.
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Quote:
Linda Morimoto (kung fu hamster) wrote:
I keep trying to develop that 360 degree awareness radar, so I can avoid being trapped like that...

When animals such as deer stand in a field, there are usually one or two that act as sentinels for the group. But I have found that deer generally stand in a strategically effective way anyway.

They use their ears to hear in 360 degrees. They use their peripheral vision to catch small movements. And they stand with their butts or flanks against the wind to catch scents from the directions opposite their eyes.

An exercise in awareness is to sit in a place, preferably natural with several ecotones or transitional areas, and open up all the senses.

Smell the smallest scent, use your deer eyes, listen to the blankets of sounds, feel the moisture, the wind, temperature, taste the air. Exercising the five senses opens the sixth. (Ever watch a flock of birds fly in perfect harmony and synchronization?) There are subtleties in the world that can only be picked up on a spiritual level, then translated into logical form.

Anyway, on your way to work, how many of the same species of trees do you pass?

Which direction is the wind blowing in the morning? In the evening?

Are the insects flying high or low?

Are the birds singing, or are they quiet?

Where are the largest leaves on the trees--top, bottom, east side, etc.?

What are the colors of the flowers, and which insects go to them?

Which plants are indicative of a water-source (besides rain)?

What does it smell like before and after it rains?

What animals species is the most common in your area, and why are they there?

What plants can you eat or use as medicine, or for utilitarian purposes?

Now how many people walk with heads down, heels first, oblivious to everything in their own neighborhoods or back yards, and to the actions of everyone else around them?

Every time something happens in the wilderness, it creates ripples. Everything else responds to the action and the ripples stretch across the entire [forest]. The most elusive creatures--cougar, marten, etc.--read the ripples and disappear when there is danger. As we open the senses in the real world of Nature, we open ourselves and embrace the cycles. Then we can tell when things happen beyond the reach of our physical senses.

This is a connection that all of us can acheive by connecting with Nature, which means learning about it, which means loving it, which means protecting all life, which is a tenet of Aikido.

In my humble opinion, of course, as it has been blatantly made clear to me that I am of the minority in this viewpoint.

The best to you, and thank you for your patience. I get excited when people like to have cool discussions instead of arguments.

Exercise and extend your Ki with conviction; feel its awesome power--just smile.
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Old 05-23-2003, 10:55 AM   #17
Jim ashby
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"Some thirty inches from my nose

the extent of my person goes

and all the untilled air between

is private pagus or demesne

Stranger, unless with bedroom eyes

you beckon me to fraternise

beware of ever crossing it

I have no gun, but I can spit"

Probably not quoted properly, however if you feel that you are being cornered and there is no way out, spit, pick your nose or find something equally gross to do. Better than throwing a punch.

Have fun

Vir Obesus Stola Saeptus
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Old 05-23-2003, 10:56 AM   #18
kung fu hamster
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Hi Jeff,

mmmm...you would appear to have a lot in common with my teacher, we go on outdoor retreats periodically and practice these things such as you describe. I keep wishing I had the instantaneous fight-or-flight skills of any ordinary housecat, even when sleeping their ears are swivelling around and catching the tiniest noise. And I agree that deer are very alert - but I'll bet those deer weren't trying to do RACF!

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Old 05-23-2003, 11:21 AM   #19
Dennis Hooker
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Beginning Aikido is reaction. Then comes interaction and then pro action. After uke acts we react level one. As uke acts we interact level 2. As uke thinks about action we act level 3. Energy precedes thought and thought precedes action, action precedes reaction.

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
https://www.createspace.com/238049

www.shindai.com
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Old 05-23-2003, 01:08 PM   #20
Thor's Hammer
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So basically what you guys are saying is (for example) my enemy and I are facing each other, I tenkan, he attempts to punch me as I enter striking range, I catch his punch while completing the tenkan and perform kotegaeshi? (again, just an example)

The way I had originally thought things happen was- my enemy moves in and punches me, as he starts to punch I tenkan, lock the hand, and perform kotegaeshi.

So the first one is the correct way then? One moves towards the enemy, (irimi or tenkan), and they try to defend their space? But what about tenshin, is this just an exception to the above rule? Or am I just confused?
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Old 05-23-2003, 01:54 PM   #21
Nacho_mx
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The true action begins the moment uke and nage face each other.
Think about your hanmi stance, it´s not an agressive one like the boxing or karate stance, it should be relaxed, confident and balanced. Nage may appear inoffensive, nonconfrontational, even vulnerable, thus drawing an opponent into a false sense of security, inviting him to make "the first move". Or nage may appear confident and strong, thus making an opponent back down or think twice about commiting to attack. Either way it is nage who sets things up.
Of course there is the possibility of surprise/sneak attacks and that is where a sense of awareness and distance (maai) that we strive to develop comes into play.
And no, the tenshin step (slide your feet backwards or sideways) is not an exception to the rule because it´s not meant to retreat but to draw uke inside nage´s range.

Last edited by Nacho_mx : 05-23-2003 at 02:03 PM.
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Old 05-23-2003, 03:17 PM   #22
Alfonso
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Hooker Sensei's post is to the effect that there's a progression in learning how to do this.

You start out by studying how to move by reacting to the attacker (this is what you find a problem)

You eventually start by studying moving with the attacker as he goes in.

You eventually get to the point where you can time this so fine that you are actually starting to move on the intention of the attacker.

This level of Aikido is pretty awesome to experience. I can't do this , but I've taken Ukemi for practicioners who can.

Even as you "go for it" Nage is already in control.. there's no meeting (2nd stage) or reacting (1st stage).

What's correct? Do you think you can get to the advanced stages of Aikido without going through the learning stages?

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 05-23-2003, 05:38 PM   #23
L. Camejo
 
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Cool Playing dead to catch vultures alive

Very very interesting posts folks.

I was thinking though of another possibility, leading from the concept of Nage always being in control of the situation.

When one is cornered, if for some reason it was not avoided before one's back is against the wall (for whatever reason, deliberate or otherwise), why not use the situation of being cornered to one's advantage?

In this I mean deliberately projecting some false body language and other energy towards the aggressor to allow him to think that you have unwittingly allowed yourself to be cornered and that you feel confused now that there is "apparently" nowhere to go.

This gives the aggressor a false sense of superiority, a deliberately misdirected feeling of having a psychological advantage by having you against a wall, often making him provide exactly the dedicated attack that you require to apply technique.

I have often used this in competition randori practice, deliberately allowing myself to be cornered to give the tanto wielding attacker a feeling of situational advantage (psychological kuzushi so to speak, causing him to "float" in a mental sense). This is more often than not followed by a very dedicated attack (after all the jabs and setups) as he believes I have no where to go, at that point I merely step off line and apply technique that utilises this forward momentum. An example is shown in the case ofhiki otoshi here.

In competition it means attacker flying out of the designated area and getting points for being thrown out of the area (if not an all out ippon), in self defence it means that the wall at your back is now gonna be in his face. Tables have turned .

Just my 2 cents.

L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 05-24-2003, 06:36 AM   #24
Grappler
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Quote:
Linda Morimoto (kung fu hamster) wrote:
My attempts at randori remind me of Night of the Living Dead, somehow I always end up backing away with my hands up as the zombies try to get me.
you have unusual training partners ...
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Old 05-24-2003, 07:25 AM   #25
Grappler
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Quote:
Jeff Rychwa (Jeff R.) wrote:
One of the best atemi against someone who is backing you down without a full committment: pretend you're going to puke on their shoes.
Just to emphasize the detail of the recommended technique, an illustration:



Note the "hands on knees" posture, the wide open mouth and slightly curved back.
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