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Old 05-20-2003, 03:08 PM   #1
Jeff R.
Dojo: River Valley
Location: New Hampshire
Join Date: Apr 2003
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Selfish/Selfless

My brother came to my pop and me several years ago, shaking his head.
Pop said, "What's the matter with you?"
My brother said, "I just don't understand people. Everyone is so rude today; it's not like it was when we were kids."
"What do you mean?" Pop asks.
"I was at the store," my brother went on, "and when I went to open the door to go in, there were some people coming up behind me. And what do you do when someone's right behind you? You open the door and hold it for them, right?"
We nodded.
"Well I did that, but you know not one person said, 'Thank you.' In fact, they didn't even make eye contact with me; acted like I was just a door-prop."

Now, I was pretty much shaking my head at that point, empathising with my brother and pondering at how truly rude people are these days.
Then my pop says, "Well, did you open the door to get a 'thank you," or did you open the door because it was the nice thing to do?"

It was a good slap in the face of paying attention to the motives behind things that I do--and make sure there aren't any if there don't have to be.

Exercise and extend your Ki with conviction; feel its awesome power--just smile.
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Old 05-20-2003, 10:13 PM   #2
Jeff Tibbetts
Dojo: Cedar River Aikikai
Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa
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That's a great point. Your father sounds like a wise man, for even thinking of that instead of doing what your brother wanted him to and just going "oh, people ARE rude, but you did a nice thing." He wasn't just looking for a thank you, he was looking for another one when he didn't get the first. I sometimes ponder this thought when it comes to, say, missionary work. I think that it's a wonderful thing to help people in need, and I'm glad that someone's doing it, but I do think it's a shame that those missionaries do their work on a conditional basis. They aren't just there to save their bodies, but they beleive they're saving their souls too. I don't know, I just think that those people have their own culture, religion, and beliefs. I think it's arrogant to assume that our way is better than theirs, for them. I think that people also do this all the time on a personal level. I know that I've done it, that is done something for someone based on what I might get. Hell, I just did it last week when the Matrix came out. I was at the video-game store that I go to all the time, and the guys working there were talking about going to wait for tickets at 8:00 in the morning. I told them that I could just hold tickets for them if they gave me the money to purchase them, (I work at the theatre) and I was hoping that they'll give me a discount or something some day. On the other hand, I help out the members of my Dojo and my friends when it comes to movies and such, and I don't think of getting anything from them. That's more like paying them back. I have been trying lately to think of a bigger picture, and realise that I should do things without credit. Actually I've been thinking of things that I could do anonymously. Anyone else here have any ideas? Our culture and our economy teach us that we should ask for rewards, that we are entitled to them, and that there's nothing wrong with asking for something that you feel you deserve. I don't know how much I buy into that, or at least I'm buying it less than I used to. Thanks for bringing this up, now you got me thinking about it again.

If the Nightingale doesn't sing-
wait
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Old 05-21-2003, 01:47 PM   #3
Mallory Wikoff
Join Date: Apr 2003
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I agree, your dad does sound very wise, i'm glad he pointed that out to your brother.

I dont agree on this.-
Quote:
I do think it's a shame that those missionaries do their work on a conditional basis. They aren't just there to save their bodies, but they beleive they're saving their souls too.
Just wanted to get this strait. If, when you are saying this, you have Christians in mind, dont.
Quote:
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life"-
-John 3:16

Christians dont have to do things to save their soul. They are Ministering because they Love God for sending his son to die, so our souls could be saved. They also do it because they don't want those people to go rot in Hell. Why not let them rot in hell? they love them, that's why.

i'm not saying this to save my soul, my soul is already saved... I just didn't want people to get the wrong idea about missionaries (Christian ones anyway).
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Old 05-22-2003, 12:33 PM   #4
BC
Location: Chicago, IL
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Quote:
mallory wikoff (Mallory Wikoff) wrote:
They also do it because they don't want those people to go rot in Hell. Why not let them rot in hell? they love them, that's why.
Ahhh, but do those missionaries even pause to consider that the people they are trying to save might not really NEED saving? What gives the missionaries the right to say that their belief system is any better than other peoples' belief systems and religions?

Robert Cronin
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Old 05-22-2003, 02:58 PM   #5
Mallory Wikoff
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If you say that then that means i can say... What gives people the right to say that evolution is a fact?

besides, people have a right to learn about Christianity. If no one wants to hear about it then the missionary should wipe of the dust from his shoes and leave.

if your enemy hungers, feed him
if he needs cloths, cloth him
in doing this you are piling burning coals on his head.
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Old 05-22-2003, 03:00 PM   #6
Mallory Wikoff
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Quote:
wipe of* the dust
sorry if you're confused, i mean wipe off* the dust
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Old 05-23-2003, 12:22 PM   #7
BC
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Quote:
mallory wikoff (Mallory Wikoff) wrote:
If you say that then that means i can say... What gives people the right to say that evolution is a fact?

besides, people have a right to learn about Christianity. If no one wants to hear about it then the missionary should wipe of the dust from his shoes and leave.
Evolution being a fact? I would say scientific proof.

Yes missionaries should wipe the dust off their shoes and leave, but too often they do not and end up trying to force feed their beliefs onto others.

Robert Cronin
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Old 05-23-2003, 06:14 PM   #8
Mallory Wikoff
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Robert, it's kind of hard to proove evolution when youre using the scientific method, also there are at least three laws of science that are out there that evolution breaks. They are the laws of thermodynamics, and the law of degeneration.

first law of thermodynamics-

in any process energy is neither crated nor destroyed. Energy can change from one form to the other, but there is always as much at the end as there was at the beginning of the process.

SECOND LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS-

whenever energy is used (changed from one form to another), some of it is wasted (though not distroyed)

LAW OF DEGENERATION-

In all natural processes there is a net increase in disorder and a net loss of usable inergy. so basicaly the universe is going from order to disorder (entropy).

if your enemy hungers, feed him
if he needs cloths, cloth him
in doing this you are piling burning coals on his head.
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Old 05-23-2003, 07:56 PM   #9
ikkainogakusei
Location: All over CA
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Ai symbol Gosh this is way off topic isn't it? Sorry

Quote:
mallory wikoff (Mallory Wikoff) wrote:
Robert, it's kind of hard to proove evolution when youre using the scientific method, also there are at least three laws of science that are out there that evolution breaks. They are the laws of thermodynamics, and the law of degeneration.

--first law of thermodynamics-

in any process energy is neither crated nor destroyed. Energy can change from one form to the other, but there is always as much at the end as there was at the beginning of the process.

SECOND LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS-

whenever energy is used (changed from one form to another), some of it is wasted (though not distroyed)

LAW OF DEGENERATION-

In all natural processes there is a net increase in disorder and a net loss of usable inergy. so basicaly the universe is going from order to disorder (entropy).
Hi Mallory, I'm a little hesitant to engage here but I feel moved to discuss the thermodynamics stuff since it has been a recent subject of discussion related to neuro biology.

first law of thermodynamics-- asserts that energy is neither created nor destroyed. I'm sure that you consider the difference between potential and chemical/kinetic energy. Is there somehow evidence that 'evolution' runs counter to this? Are you implying that evolution asserts that life is an energy that is created? Or that in death that energy is destroyed?

2nd law: is there some evidence that the theory of evoution asserts energy is not wasted or is it that the energy is somehow destroyed?

Entropy: What is your perspective of evolution and disorder?

It has always been my impression that since we have fossil records of whales, going from land to sea, and current records of several viruses evolving to adapt to new circumstances, or even mammals that have changed within scientific history, that evolution itself has been clear. Still, I veiw it as a theory rather than a law.The question is the origin, which I do not feel a need to answer.

Also, I am not Christian but is it not so that Jesus said that there is a special place in heaven for those who convert another to christianity (uh I think it's Matthew 18:3-5), isn't this one of the inspirations to convert?

Respectfully


"To educate a man in mind, and not in morals, is to educate a menace to society." ~Theodore Roosevelt
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Old 05-23-2003, 09:06 PM   #10
Jeff R.
Dojo: River Valley
Location: New Hampshire
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Mathew 18:1-4

"Just then the disciples came up to Jesus with the question, "Who is of greatest importance in the Kingdom of God?" He called a little child over and stood him in their midst and said, "I assure you, unless you change and become like little children you will not enter the Kingdom of God. Whoever makes himself lowly, becoming like this child, is of greatest importance in that heavenly reign."

Innocence, purity, connected to the spiritual, doing no harm to the earth, filled with unconditional love, not overthinking things, but living life in the moment.

I do, however, believe that evolution is fact, but not possible without serious spiritual intervention.

Exercise and extend your Ki with conviction; feel its awesome power--just smile.
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Old 05-24-2003, 04:35 PM   #11
Mallory Wikoff
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1st law of thermodynamix- evolution counters this by the big bang theory. how did all that stuff get there in the first place any way?

2nd law of thermodynamix- sorry, but i forgot (so much for trying to be professional). i think there is some way it dissagrees. (a little help here?)

evolution and entropy- evolution says that everything is evolving and getting better (dissorder to order).
Quote:
It has always been my impression that since we have fossil records of whales, going from land to sea
the flood excusses that
Quote:
current records of several viruses evolving to adapt to new circumstances, or even mammals that have changed within scientific history, that evolution itself has been clear
It's not evolving it's natural selection.

about the missionary thing, i was just trying to say that missionaries dont minister to people out of selfishness, but out of love.

if you want to keep this argument going, you should probably go make your own thread, this has gone off subject enough.
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Old 05-24-2003, 05:41 PM   #12
Jeff R.
Dojo: River Valley
Location: New Hampshire
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Quote:
mallory wikoff (Mallory Wikoff) wrote:
if you want to keep this argument going, you should probably go make your own thread, this has gone off subject enough.
Yes. Let's. This is fascinating, and I have questions.

Exercise and extend your Ki with conviction; feel its awesome power--just smile.
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Old 05-24-2003, 06:52 PM   #13
Thalib
 
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Dojo: 合気研究会
Location: Jakarta Selatan
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Back to the original topic...

Your dad is very wise indeed. We are but humans, don't feel bad because you expected sometype of acknowledgement. I do things that people see as "selfless" because it makes me feel good and that is a "selfish" thing isn't it?

Seeing people happy makes me happy. The reason I help people is that so I feel that I have achieve something, that I've done another good deed today. Those are selfish things, in a good way.

I do expect acknowledgement now and then, but when it is not shown I do not complain. The acknowledgement I needed is the result. It does not need to be a word of mouth or sometype of award. I just accept it as something that is needed to be done.

If I'm selfless then I would do something regardless that it would make me and some people feel bad but it was for the greater good. That is something I have yet to learn.

I am but a naturally selfish being, I do things that would be mutually beneficial. That benefit doesn't have to be tangible, a good emotional reaction that I get is considered as a benefit.

Even when someone hurt me in one way or another, I don't try to hurt them back, I do the opposite. Instead of gaining an enemy which there is no benefit out of it, I'd rather make new friends. This I'm still learning.

I want to smile for people. I want to smile without hesitation. I want to smile without a frown in my heart. I want to smile both on my face and my heart. For I know this will make me a happier person. Selfish reason isn't it? Makoto - sincerity - a concept I have yet to undestand.

When I have to die by the sword, I will do so with honor.
--------
http://funkybuddha.multiply.com/
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Old 05-25-2003, 12:37 PM   #14
SeiserL
 
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IMHO, some times its hard to know if rudeness comes because people thinking they are too important (selfish), or that they don't think they are important enough to effect others. usually, I think they are just acting out of their own pain and fear with any thought about the rest of us. At least, I think that's how I do it when I am rude.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 05-25-2003, 06:48 PM   #15
Jeff Tibbetts
Dojo: Cedar River Aikikai
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I agree, Lynn. The basic truth of the matter is that to think of your own pain and fear and not other people is the very core of selfishness. Ego is a sly thing, espectially in America, where we're all told that you have to constantly stroke your own and other's egos. Many times we aren't intending to be selfish, but we simply have a hard time doing that mental tenkan and looking at an issue through someone else's eyes. It's easy to think of how bad of a day you're having, and very difficult to look at another person who is being rude to you and thinking that it's nothing personal at all. Some people are certainly the type of selfish that thinks that they are really important, but I think they're the minority. Most of us are selfish for that simple reason, that we are too concerned with our own well-being, our own ego. I'm certainly not off the hook, but I'm working on it. I should hope that through Aikido we can all see the value of a little empathy.

If the Nightingale doesn't sing-
wait
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