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Old 12-15-2004, 05:55 AM   #26
markwalsh
Dojo: Airenjuku Brighton
Location: On the road - UK
Join Date: Jul 2003
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Re: Whats in a name?

Similar to Charles point: If you name a technique (even in your mind) you just start doing what you already know rather than actaully looking and learning. Resisting this is a constant temptation. I think Saotome Sensei made the point in one of his books. My question is if you learnt without any names would it eliminate this, or would you just start naming things in your head to your own system (is this better)? Has anyone learnt a comparable set of skills without any naming?

..............
"American names", what like Brad, or Marie-Sue? It's English that my wayward colonial cousins speak, even if it's a weird verion.
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Old 12-15-2004, 06:28 AM   #27
Derek Webb
Dojo: MK Keihatsu & Phoenix Coventry
Location: Milton Keynes
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Re: Whats in a name?

On one level the technique has to have a name or some device by which it is identified or there is going to be more chaos than there already is. Personally I do not worry overly much what the technique is called, provided there is a constancy within that place. Perhaps someone knows of a matrix that could be devised showing the various combinations of style, affliliation and various names for the same technique?

For me the greatest difficulty I find is how to pronounce the Japanese names. I've learnt the names mostly from English sources with some Japanese input. Even in English the Japanese has probably mutated through regional dialects. So I rely more on what I see than what I hear.

Standardisation would be one answer but then there would be loss of the richness of variation

Regards

Delboy
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Old 12-15-2004, 06:38 AM   #28
batemanb
 
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Dojo: Seibukan Aikido UK
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Re: Whats in a name?

Quote:
Derek Webb wrote:
For me the greatest difficulty I find is how to pronounce the Japanese names. I've learnt the names mostly from English sources with some Japanese input. Even in English the Japanese has probably mutated through regional dialects.


A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 12-15-2004, 09:20 AM   #29
MaryKaye
Dojo: Seattle Ki Society
Location: Seattle
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Re: Whats in a name?

We do some subset of 21 solo exercises at the start of each class, and they all have Japanese names which we are expected to learn. (If you seem to need encouragement to learn them you will find yourself up in front of class leading them....) I used to think this was just an attempt to improve our Japanese vocabulary, but as I trained longer I found that the exercise names are used as a shorthand to critique throws. "No, no! The arm drop there is udemawashi!" This is actually quite useful.

You could do that with English names, but they would be just as arbitrary as the Japanese ones in my opinion, because they'd have to be pretty short. The dojo where I've seen the most American-origin names uses mostly numbers: kaitenage #1, #2, #3 (usually up to #8) or in one memorable instance #1A, #1B.... I hated this. I could not keep them straight for the life of me; I would much rather have Japanese words, especially ones I could relate to some other context.

Ki Society gets pretty detailed with its names in general: I am supposed to know four shomenuchi shihonage, and they are called tenkan/irimi, tenkan/tenkan, irimi/irimi, irimi/tenkan. The last two have a more descriptive term "hantai tenkan" for the entry as well. It's a mouthful, but I can figure out which one is which solely from its name, which I have no hope of doing when confronted with #1B. Similarly, we have names for the different flavors of kokyunage, which helps with the "half of all throws are kokyunage" problem: zenpo-nage, kiri-kaeishi, enundo, etc.

If I wasn't taught all this stuff I would feel some need to invent it. I'm a verbal thinker: moves without names give me a lot of grief. I recently spent some effort trying to put a name to an Aikikai technique that was done to me several times, so that the next time I would feel like I knew what was happening to me.... It's not logical that knowing the name helps me take the ukemi, but it does. (It was tenchinage, as it turns out, but not one I'd seen before.)

Mary Kaye
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Old 12-15-2004, 10:17 PM   #30
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Whats in a name?

Many, like 99%, need to work on pronunciation too. Take 'Aikido' for example, quite an important word doncha think? When I first went to Japan and mentioned 'Aikido' no one could understand what I was saying. I said, 'Ai Kiii do' with long stress on the second syllable whereas they say it with short stress on the first. There are very few westerners who pronounce it properly. And for anyone who is interested, pronunciation of terminology by westerners in the Korean arts is 10 times worse, in my opinion.

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Old 12-16-2004, 03:46 AM   #31
batemanb
 
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Re: Whats in a name?

Hey Derek,

Come visit, I'll be happy to help


rgds

Bryan

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 12-16-2004, 06:21 AM   #32
Derek Webb
Dojo: MK Keihatsu & Phoenix Coventry
Location: Milton Keynes
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: Whats in a name?

Thanks Brian

See you soon

Delboy
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