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Old 05-15-2003, 08:54 PM   #1
sean mcdonnell
Dojo: Bucks County Aikido
Location: Chalfont, Pennsylvania
Join Date: Apr 2003
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Ai symbol Awkward position.

Um, this is kinda weird for me to ask but I'll go ahead and ask. When we do techiniques that involve grabbing the Gi I find it very awkward to train with a female. Considering it looks like I'm grabbing at their breasts(haha, i have to stop taking things so seriously) and the fact that I'm a male teenager it makes me very nervous. I mean god knows what they're thinking, and believe me, I'm not thinking anything inappropriate at all, I'm mature enough in that way. When I'm in the dojo all I think about is Aikido and that's it, I'm very comfortable for the most part until this rolls around. Well any input will be muc appreciated, Thank You.


-Sean

"Sad? What do I have to be sad about?" -Sephiroth
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Old 05-15-2003, 09:17 PM   #2
Michael Neal
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Wait to you actually accidently grab a breast during practice, you will feel even more uncomfortable.

It does not happen to me much in Aikido but it occurs all the time in Judo. You just have to put it out of your mind and not worry about it so much, I think most women will understand if they know it is by accident.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 05-15-2003 at 09:20 PM.
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Old 05-15-2003, 09:56 PM   #3
Greg Jennings
Dojo: S&G BJJ
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No gender on the mat, please. Just train.

Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 05-15-2003, 11:34 PM   #4
KaitlinCostello
 
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Hi Sean,

As one of the only two females in a our class of ten, I understand your nervousness and feelings of being uncomfortable. Having someone grab the lapels of my Gi doesn't bother me one bit anymore, granted it used to at first. To make things easier I offer a fold of the Gi, rather then having my partner grab for one. If this is more comfortable in your mind, ask your female training partners if they wouldn't mind doing that.

Given time you'll forget the physical form and simply train.

I hope this helps,

Kate

~~No smile is as beautiful as the one that struggles through tears.~~
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Old 05-16-2003, 01:17 AM   #5
Largo
Dojo: Aikikai Dobunkan/ Icho Ryu Aikijujutsu
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Sean- since you are (ostensibly) training for self defense, I'd say that you would be hurting your partner's training by doing anything half-way. It does take some time to get used to grabbing someone like that, and to being grabbed that way. But, in the end, it's for your partner's benefit..so hang in there
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Old 05-16-2003, 06:42 AM   #6
cindy perkins
Dojo: AikiDog Dojo
Location: Pittsfield, New Hampshire
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It's no issue for any female student I've known, and never has been for me. For one thing, we're training -- we both know why you're reaching for my chest. For another, I've never know a woman outside the comics whose breasts are as high as the area of the lapel we grab for. Relax. It's OK.
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Old 05-16-2003, 10:00 AM   #7
Dave Miller
 
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Thumbs down Bravo, Sean.

I have to admit that when I first started training, some of these same questions and thoughts occured to me but I was too shy or self conscious to bring them up with anyone. I eventually worked through them ok. However, I have to take my hat off to you for taking the initiative to bring up a topic like this.


DAVE

If you're working too hard, you're doing it wrong.
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Old 05-16-2003, 11:14 AM   #8
beanchild
Dojo: Aikido Academy, Columbia, SC
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i get your point sean. don't worry too much about it though, it can fry your concentration. accidental contact is par for the course.

fyi, it happens to female students too, except in the other direction. with a male uke, every so often an approximate strike to the groin or upper thigh ends up brushing certain "areas." unless it's a direct hit i don't say a thing, figuring we'll both be professional about it.
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Old 05-16-2003, 11:36 AM   #9
ian
 
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unless it bothers them I wouldn't worry about it. Unfortunately politcal correctness fails to distinguish between those who train sincerely and those who are trying to grope - but most people are very aware of the difference.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 05-16-2003, 12:44 PM   #10
Veers
 
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My sis is the only girl in our dojo, so it's not too awkawrd. She wears a shirt under her gi, and leaves her gi looser than I leave the top of mine. I usually grab either nearer the shoulder and move a few fingers worth down (when slow is okay) or grab more to the outside (closer to armpits) or just grab the edges tight.

But I could see where you're coming from if you don't know them well.

Try not to let it get to you...they know what they're in for, just as you do.

The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
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Old 05-16-2003, 01:53 PM   #11
Darren Raleigh
Location: Des Moines, Iowa
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Sean,

Do it 500 more times and I bet it won't bug you anymore.

To so many questions the answer is the same: "Practice!"

"If he would not be a stick whirled and whelmed in the stream, he must be the stream itself, all of it, from its spring to its sinking in the sea."
- Ogion the Silent
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Old 05-16-2003, 04:34 PM   #12
Peter Klein
Dojo: Aikido Kreis Koeln (Germany)
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tell them that they have nice tits and it wont be so hard anymore.
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Old 05-17-2003, 12:20 PM   #13
mle
Dojo: The Dojo (www.the-dojo.com
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As a female, I have found that it is helpful to offer a lapel with my thumb at the proper point to my partner. Makes it OK and properly targeted.

Prevents accidental pinching and accidental "titemi".

MLE

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Old 05-17-2003, 03:17 PM   #14
Greg Jennings
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Quote:
Peter Klein wrote:
tell them that they have nice tits and it wont be so hard anymore.
That would get you ground into a bloody mess at our dojo. The second ranking mudansha in our dojo is a 6'2" 200 lb phenom that collects high dan ranks.

Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 05-17-2003, 04:45 PM   #15
Hanna B
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Peter Klein... how old are you? Just wondering.
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Old 05-17-2003, 10:41 PM   #16
opherdonchin
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I've always been taught (and taught) that the kata dori grabs are 'shoulder' grabs and not lapel grabs. Grabbing the shoulder can effectively immobilize half of nage's body while grabbing the lapel really won't ever do much except unbalancing unless it is a lead-in for a choke (rarely practiced in most dojos I've trained in). If you are aiming for an effective shoulder grab, I think that the breast should not get in the way.

However, there may be stylistic differences here and I'd be interested to know if there are.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 05-18-2003, 01:35 AM   #17
PhilJ
 
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I was always taught that katadori was a lapel grab, but have been since corrected. The katadori (for me) is now the shoulder grab and munedori(?) is the lapel.

Sean, I see your concern here, but listen to the females in this thread. It's not a big deal unless you make it one.

BTW, how about us guys with hairy chests? I always ALWAYS pull my lapels out (like Emily suggested), otherwise I can guarantee myself an Epilady-style atemi.

*Phil

Phillip Johnson
Enso Aikido Dojo, Burnsville, MN
An Aikido Bukou Dojo
http://www.aikidobukou.com
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Old 05-18-2003, 06:44 AM   #18
Greg Jennings
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The attack originally mentioned is eridori not katadori.

Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 05-18-2003, 06:47 AM   #19
Greg Jennings
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Quote:
Hanna Björk (Hanna B) wrote:
Peter Klein... how old are you? Just wondering.
I'm not Peter, but his profile (use the little magnifying glass icon by the poster name) says that his birthday is Sept 15, 1984.

Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 05-18-2003, 12:01 PM   #20
opherdonchin
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
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Quote:
The attack originally mentioned is eridori not katadori.
That's not mentioned in the original post which just says 'Gi grab.' What's an eridori?

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 05-18-2003, 12:19 PM   #21
Hanna B
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In my vocabulary, eridori is a grab in lapel from behind, at the back of the neck . Muna dori - the lapel, both sides of it, in front.
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Old 05-18-2003, 03:41 PM   #22
Greg Jennings
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Quote:
Hanna Björk (Hanna B) wrote:
In my vocabulary, eridori is a grab in lapel from behind, at the back of the neck . Muna dori - the lapel, both sides of it, in front.
The grab from the rear is Ushiro Eridori.

If either or both lapels are grabbed near the center of the chest, we say "Munadori" as you do.

There is also a case where uke grabs one lapel or both very high; next to nage's neck. We call that "eridori". You're taking the "collar" but you're doing it from the front, not from the rear.

Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 05-18-2003, 03:59 PM   #23
Greg Jennings
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Quote:
Opher Donchin (opherdonchin) wrote:
What's an eridori?
Eri = Lapel or Collar

Dori = To Take or To Grab

Eridori is commonly seen as ushiro eridori. I.e., Uke grabs nage's collar at the nape of the neck.

When we say "eridori" meaning "eridori omote",

Uke grabs nage's lapel/collar very high from the inside. Uke is either working for a two handed "X choke" or has decided that he needs to soften nage first with knees, kicks, elbows or punches.

In the kotai and jutai forms, uke actually gets the grab. In the ryutai and kitai forms, nage heads the attack of before uke can latch on.

Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 05-18-2003, 04:28 PM   #24
otto
Dojo: Independent
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Detachable Genitals huh?

Well those would come very handy to avoid the smashing accidentes on Breakfalls , and the lenghty interrogations from your Gf/Wife when you leave town for a couple days...

"Perfection is a Process"
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