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Old 05-18-2003, 10:35 AM   #26
bob_stra
Location: Australia
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I'd like to add two more thoughts to this.

First the humorous one

I have an acquaintance that is a high-ranking judoka. In his house, by the door, is a very prominant baseball bat. I found that odd so I asked him about it once.

"Oh, that. That's for the bad guys."

"Makes sense...." I sez.

"Yeah, see, if they're armed, then I don't have to hold back".

;-)

Secondly, I get the feeling that aiki folks poo-poo the idea of "sports competitions" / sparring et al. IMHO I view this type of thinking as a distinct detriment to the study of Aikido. Why is this opinion held so widely today?
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Old 05-18-2003, 11:56 AM   #27
L. Camejo
 
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Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich (bob_stra) wrote:
I'd like to add two more thoughts to this.

Secondly, I get the feeling that aiki folks poo-poo the idea of "sports competitions" / sparring et al. IMHO I view this type of thinking as a distinct detriment to the study of Aikido. Why is this opinion held so widely today?
I wonder about that myself sometimes, Bob.

To me, Competitive Aikido = Aikido against someone who knows exactly what you may do and knows exactly how to resist it.

In this practice, the integrity of your technique (kata) can only improve, since you really have to apply what you understand of the principles for them to work against skilled resistance.

This is important in the self defence scenario, as one may find themselves dealing with someone who knows exactly how to negate both verbal and physical aikido pretty effectively. In these times, the options are to switch to a different tactic or dig even deeper to MAKE your Aiki response work by being even more centred under the increased reisistance, and "sticking to your game" so to speak.

I aim to make my Aikido work as well in non resistant situations as in those where people are resisting to their very best. If Aiki is meant to bring harmony out of any type of conflict, then it should be able to work against resistance if the situation arises, without the Aikidoka having to enter the fight (i.e. struggle, war, win/lose) mindset.

To me, competition style randori training helps to a good degree in that area, as we learn to adapt even more with the tactic and rhythm of the attacker, while staying centred and applying the principles, even in the face of skilled and focused resistance.

Just &4.99 to add to the rest.

Onegaishimasu

L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 05-18-2003, 12:17 PM   #28
Jeff R.
Dojo: River Valley
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Quote:
Larry Camejo (L. Camejo) wrote:
I wonder about that myself sometimes, Bob.

To me, Competitive Aikido = Aikido against someone who knows exactly what you may do and knows exactly how to resist it.
But that's the whole point. Aikido techniques are performed well beyond the constraints of thought. Anticipating what Nage is going to do leads to Uke's injury. And if Uke is giving a true attack, then there is little room for making split-second adjustments and resisting, as long as Nage's technique is pure. Of course there is Kaeshiwaza, but I don't know if that can be classified as competitive, as it is simply alternating redirection.

I guess what I'm thinking of as far as defining competition, is more along the lines of grappling, or maybe it's defined by the outcome--whoever gets the pin.

I definitely don't hold anything against competitive martial arts, and I believe that without conflict, Aikido couldn't exist (as the principle of Aikido is 'obtaining harmony through the resolution of conflict'), but as far as competitive--I guess I'm not grasping the working definition.


Exercise and extend your Ki with conviction; feel its awesome power--just smile.
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Old 05-18-2003, 01:38 PM   #29
L. Camejo
 
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Ai symbol

Quote:
Jeff Rychwa (Jeff R.) wrote:
But that's the whole point. Aikido techniques are performed well beyond the constraints of thought.
I agree totally.
Quote:
Anticipating what Nage is going to do leads to Uke's injury.
Not if Uke does not plan to let you get his centre and balance from the beginning and knows exactly which techniques you are capable of doing (the Randori no kata - 17 basic techniques used for competition).

This is not cooperative paired kata practice, Tanto (Uke) is trying to get you with a quick, and dedicated (though not always) tanto tsuki to the chest, side or back target area, in whatever way that may be possible. There is a lot of faking, jabbing and other distractions designed to set Toshu (Nage) up to be hit with the tanto. The idea is not to even give Toshu (nage) a chance to properly evade the attack, much less get off a technique. And even if nage does start a response, Tanto (Uke) can employ counters from 5 different basic techniques. Of course, both players are aware what the other is allowed to do - rules and stuff, which can be found here .
Quote:
And if Uke is giving a true attack, then there is little room for making split-second adjustments and resisting, as long as Nage's technique is pure. Of course there is Kaeshiwaza, but I don't know if that can be classified as competitive, as it is simply alternating redirection.
Right, well for the "true" attack thing see above. As may be the case in self defence, when an attacker realises you may be trained in some from of personal defence they are not so willing to offer their limbs all of a sudden. This is why IMHO as Aikidoka we try to get things done right the first time, if not evading the conflict altogether.

Kaeshiwaza is more than just directional change, its sensing for the flaws in Toshu's (Nage's) technique and exploiting them with a tech of your own.
Quote:
I guess what I'm thinking of as far as defining competition, is more along the lines of grappling, or maybe it's defined by the outcome--whoever gets the pin.
Getting the pin is part of it, but far from all of it. Similar to Judo, more points are awarded the more cleanly the techs are executed. Hence, if your tech looks/works in shiai the same way it looks/works during kata, you should get an ippon. Of course, techs applied with a compliant uke and those applied a moving, resisting tanto wielding competitor are hard to compare. This is where adaptation and evolution of the kata starts taking place.
Quote:
I definitely don't hold anything against competitive martial arts, and I believe that without conflict, Aikido couldn't exist (as the principle of Aikido is 'obtaining harmony through the resolution of conflict'), but as far as competitive--I guess I'm not grasping the working definition.
Understandable, and I agree. It took me a while too and have had to explain it to almost every Aikido sensei I have ever personally met from other styles. Part of the neverending development process I guess

Hope this helps to clarify - the best clarifier though tends to be experience. Apologies for diverting from the main topic all.

L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 05-18-2003, 04:00 PM   #30
Jeff R.
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Yeah, I hear you. (And I have to say that I appreciate your taking the initiative to have conversation rather than resorting to trivial sarcasm and blatant-straw-man-misinterpretations that I have seen all too commonly in other posts. Thank you.)

What you're talking about sounds a lot like the Mongoose Aikido I've mentioned before. I think it just boils down to semantics for me, because I thoroughly enjoy the more "combative training" as well.

What some may call Competitive Aikido, I think I am calling Mongoose Aikido. Regardless, however, I am always interested in learning other methods and indulging in productive conversation.

Thanks again.

Exercise and extend your Ki with conviction; feel its awesome power--just smile.
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Old 05-19-2003, 11:15 AM   #31
bob_stra
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Quote:
Jeff Rychwa (Jeff R.) wrote:
but as far as competitive--I guess I'm not grasping the working definition.
I think this carries the flavour of what I'm trying to express.

(Please excuse / ignore the sales pitch)

http://www.rmax.tv/nature.html

I think of sparring as "hard work" and the bulk of our paired practice as "soft work".
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Old 05-19-2003, 11:59 AM   #32
Dave Miller
 
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Competitive Aikido:

Lest we forget, there is indeed a school of competitive aikido. Tomiki, who was a world-class Judo player (trained under Kana), had the notion of applying the sport principles of Judo to Aikido as a way of making it more popular and accessible. As a result, there are two broad categories of Tomiki ryu today. One is the competitive, "sport" version, often called "Shodokan Aikido" and the other is systems such as Fugakakai and KiHara.

DAVE

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Old 05-21-2003, 09:00 PM   #33
Hanna B
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Re: Self defence vs fights

Quote:
Patrik Eng (Ta Kung) wrote:
Hi!

Is it just me, or do other people also see a BIG difference between a self defence situation and a fight?

Most people seem to mix these things up.
I could not agree more. Mark MacYoung has an interesting page on self defence (although I do not agree on everything).
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