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Old 08-14-2003, 11:01 AM   #51
Budd
 
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Dojo: Taikyoku Aikido
Location: Williamsville, NY
Join Date: Aug 2003
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I think we're talking about two different things -- one being; should practice in the dojo equate that of street combat? I think the general consensus has been a comfortable 'no', unless some folks are training in alleys and grabbing trash can lids or car attenas to strike with as uke

The other one, which brings us back to the original issue, is; do you attack with intention? I think another worthy question is; do you comply with the technique? And not because someone's legitimately taken your kuzushi, but because it's polite to do so.

I believe uke's attacks should be measured to the skill level of nage, but should always have intention, meaning nage is going to get struck/grabbed/shoved/etc. if they don't perform the technique. The actual impact can be as light as a tap for a beginner, or at the very least, sufficient to cause pain if it's a yudansha. The point being, nage must give sufficiently honest 'attention' to uke's honest 'intention' to honestly develop in their aiki training.

Going along with this, when nage is a beginner, I think it's helpful for a skilled uke to move through the technique with them so that they can find its shape. On the other hand, by yudansha level, such compliance takes away from the integrity, I believe, of the aikido training. I'm a former wrestler/judo player and have to fight to not use muscular power in the application of technique. If someone's going along with my application without my having taken their balance, then my learning is impeded twofold. First, I'm not learning how to redirect their center. At the same time, I'm relying on brute strength for my aiki, which I think is a bit of a contradiction.

Just my opinions, of course.

Budd

Last edited by Budd : 08-14-2003 at 11:08 AM.
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Old 08-18-2003, 03:13 AM   #52
Abasan
Dojo: Aiki Shoshinkan, Aiki Kenkyukai
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 813
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Quote:
Phillip Johnson (PhilJ) wrote:
Does an attaacker go through all this in his/her mind before the attack? Or do they just attack? And do attacks always hit their mark?

*Phil
I don't know how to answer that Phillip. If i was a 'realistic' attacker myself, I would have to have the real intention of hitting the guy, no matter what he did.

Maybe some people have unpredictable mood swings that allows them to spontaneously attack at will, but I don't.

As for always hitting the mark. If my defender is good enough, he won't get hit. At least not where it was intended to hit.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 08-18-2003, 04:05 PM   #53
Corey
Dojo: Kai Shin Kai Chesterfield, MO
Join Date: Jul 2003
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Alec wrote:

"Let's all drop the macho posturing and practise with love, joy, and serious intent, but we are practising a DO, not preparing for combat. Those of you who really want "real" attacks try a few bars or street corners and try not to get hurt too badly, or anyone else for that matter."

I am not trying to be "macho." The whole philosophy of Aikido is what drew me into martial arts in the first place. I was simply stating that I want something a little closer to reality in my own practice. Everyone has their own aspirations and reasons for getting involved in Aikido. Each person should find his or her own way. I just want to be able to apply my techniques if the need arises. That is the point I was trying to make. Thanks.

Knowing others is wisdom;
Knowing the self is enlightment.
Mastering others requires force;
Mastering the self needs strength.
~Lao Tzu
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Old 08-18-2003, 04:12 PM   #54
Eric Joyce
Dojo: Budoshingikan
Location: Gilbert, AZ
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Hey all, 2 good reads that I think would add to this convo:

(REALIZING AIKIDO'S POTENTIAL)

http://www.aikidojournal.com/new/art...?ArticleID=112

(MARTIAL INTEGRITY IN AIKIDO)

http://www.aikidojournal.com/new/art...?ArticleID=322

Enjoy!!

Eric Joyce
Otake Han Doshin Ryu Jujutsu
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Old 08-18-2003, 06:38 PM   #55
paw
Join Date: Mar 2002
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With respect to the above authors,

this rings more true to me

Regards,

Paul
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Old 08-19-2003, 03:53 AM   #56
David Yap
Join Date: Jun 2003
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Quote:
Frank Olson (TheFallGuy) wrote:
(snipped)...

I think Ahmad and Alec make a good point too. But then it may just be semantics. If your goal is to actually hurt your partner, then you are in the wrong place. NO respectable MA appreciates or wants that type of behavior or attitude. I tend to agree with other masters of other arts (Wing Tsun, Pa Kua, etc) that the dojo is a place of learning and we are all "family". We all have different skills, and abilities, and reasons why we are there...(snipped)...
Frank, I agree wholeheartedly.
Quote:
Ahmad Abas (Abasan) wrote:
David Y, if you come back to class... we can address this type of attack if you wish…(snipped)… But, to say sensei has nothing to teach you is very arrogant indeed… (snipped)
Abas, I think you may have misunderstood my definition of a sincere/honest strike. Last time in class, when I said that there should kime in an attack -- kime actually mean focus NOT a forceful violent attack. VIOLENCE has no place in a dojo (aikido, karate or any MA for that matter). A sincere attack with focus means taking aim at the target (top of the neck, side of the neck or at abdomen) and striking at the target WITHOUT any second thought (or mischievous thought like maiming your nage or stopping s/he from carrying out the intended technique). All kata in Aikido are in the form of a two-persons drills -- the nage knows before hand how the attack is coming and the Uke knows before hand how his/her attack is going to be received and neutralized by the Nage. Take the drill Yokomenuchi Shihonage Ura for example (I am sure you remember this particular one ), here I assume the role of a Uke and I know before hand that the Nage is going step forward to my side to jam/cut my strike to off balance me and then take control of the attack. As a Uke, I don't think about all that, my immediate role is to strike at the intended target , the side of the Nage's neck, and I would also consider varying the speed of my strike based on the Nage's level of skill/ability. I DON'T stop (or think about stopping) my strike half way -- that is mischievous -- to do so would be unfair to the Nage and dishonourable to oneself. Bear in mind, the target is the Nage's neck NOT the Nage's extended arm. While we are on the subject of this drill, let's talk about Awase (blending), it is the Nage's initiative to blend with the attacker, off-balance the attacker and then take control. The Uke once knowing that s/he has lost his/her balance should THEN blend with the Nage (and NOT BEFORE) to avoid any injury to him/herself -- there is no point fighting/resisting to the very end. There is a line between stupidity and egoism.

What then is a "REALISTIC" attack? There are no definite answers. They all depend on the intensions of the attacker or the defender in different situations below:

In a dojo drill -- a sincere attack described above would suffice

In a sports competition

In a bar fight or street fight

In shiai -- fight till death or till the last man standing

It depends what goes on in your mind, the last three situations definitely would have no place in an Aikido dojo or any dojo for the last two. If you are looking for these, then, sorry to say you are in the wrong place as O' sensei would have say, "You got evil intentions".

Finally, I don't understand your statement "to say sensei has nothing to teach you is very arrogant indeed". I have gone through my earlier posts and checked that I have not specifically mentioned that which and which sensei has nothing to teach me. Learning is a continuing process and I do learn something new (+ve or --ve) any other day from anyone at work or at play, including from my own children. I think it has come to the stage of my life that what I seek from martial arts is not so much on techniques but more on spiritual development (finding myself so to speak). I am not looking for a teacher who can/will show me & the class 20 techniques in one session and then another 20 techniques in next session and so on. But if you are, I can recommend one to you and, boy, you will be awed by his collections of video tapes from every shihan in the world. My criteria of a teacher goes beyond that...one day you will understand.

You do agree that teaching Aikido on a commercial venture and for the love of art is tough balancing art. BTW, I guess it is all about finding students with the right attitude or having a teacher with BUDO attitude to lead them there. Thus, I end this post with a quote from Kisshomaru Ueshiba, 2nd Doshu of Aikikai.



"Again, it is true that there are a number of poorly informed people who mistakenly view Aikido as some kind of health promoting exercise, a kind of dance, a form of martial mesmerism, or some such thing, and, as we mentioned earlier, even reference works confuse Aikido and Aikijutsu. Let it be clear, however, that Aikido is Budo, a martial art. Aikido is a refinement of traditional martial techniques combined with an exalted philosophy of the spirit. It is a method of forging mind and body."
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Old 08-19-2003, 05:14 AM   #57
David Yap
Join Date: Jun 2003
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Quote:
While we are on the subject of this drill, let's talk about Awase (blending), it is the Nage's initiative to blend with the attacker, off-balance the attacker and then take control. The Uke once knowing that s/he has lost his/her balance should THEN blend with the Nage (and NOT BEFORE) to avoid any injury to him/herself
Oops, I forgot to add that blending together from point zero as demonstrated in one of our class is totally against the essence of aikido. Why? many reasons.

The intended target (side of neck) has now changed to the nage's extended arm. Upon contact of the uke's strike arm with the nage's extended, the uke is told to hold back the attack, turned and faced the nage who was now at the same side of the striking arm - 1)there is no energy behind the attack anymore. As a nage, there is no longer a perceived threat of attack and there is no longer a need to defend. 2) By turning to face the nage, the uke intentionally "blend" with nage by off-balancing him/herself voluntarily even when the nage's arm to jam the blow was not fully extended. 3)In eyes of an experienced martial artist, this performance is so unrealistic and the chereography is par excellent. Sometime, it is good to sit with the crowd and hear their comments about an aikido demonstration.
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Old 08-20-2003, 08:41 PM   #58
David Yap
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 561
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Quote:
Eric Joyce wrote:
Hey all, 2 good reads that I think would add to this convo:

(REALIZING AIKIDO'S POTENTIAL)

http://www.aikidojournal.com/new/art...?ArticleID=112

(MARTIAL INTEGRITY IN AIKIDO)

http://www.aikidojournal.com/new/art...?ArticleID=322

Enjoy!!
Thank you very much, Eric, for the reference to these beautiful crafted articles. I enjoyed them very much. They address very much the issues posted on this thread as well as those on other threads.

Comprehensive and to the point.

David Y
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Old 08-21-2003, 01:37 AM   #59
Chris Raeger
Dojo: Shinryukan Canterbury
Location: NZ
Join Date: Aug 2003
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I would respectively suggest that you are over thinking this. The Dojo is a place where you can die over and over again and is therefore safer for us when learning or practicing our art. It is understandable that we would consider carefully why we lived and why we died in training. But it is best to keep the model and phylosophy simple, yes? As such, the forms we learn are a model that we can use to provide ourselves with options so that when faced with real life situations we are equiped with some idea of what is possible. From this point our creative and itelligent minds, bodies and spirit can achieve a solution to a problem that exisits. They (the techniques)are not the answer themselves only the form of what the answer could be. Your listing was long and I am dyslexic so hope I have got the ghist of what you said and have understood it.
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Old 08-21-2003, 04:49 AM   #60
PeterPhilippson
Dojo: Stockport Aikido Club
Location: Manchester, UK
Join Date: Nov 2001
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I think there needs to be a range of practice at all levels: practice where nage knows what attack is coming; practice where nage doesn't know what attack is coming (either randori or giving uke a choice of maybe two attacks); practice where uke knows what defence is coming; and practice where uke doesn't know what defence is coming.

I don't want the dojo to become a street brawl, yet what we learn must be usable on the street, or we are developing dangerous responses which will get students hurt if they get involved in a street situation. This isn't about going round looking for a fight, but about being attacked, or stepping in if someone else is being attacked.

So we must be able to defend against a roundhouse punch, not just yokomen uchi; against a punch that is pulled back or in combination rather than a single tsuki that stays out. We must be able to develop reflexes if someone attacks unexpectedly, so we do some of that (not just for students: last week I was practicing with two attackers, and a third decided to join in from behind me!).

Best wishes,

Peter
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