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Old 05-05-2003, 01:46 PM   #1
Peter Klein
Dojo: Aikido Kreis Koeln (Germany)
Location: Cologne
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 70
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yoshinkan

what are the certan characteristics of yoshinkan aikido that differ from aikikai. do u have to be stronger. are the useless nage forms like tenchi nage removed? etc... pls answer me thank you
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Old 05-05-2003, 01:51 PM   #2
mj
Location: livingston, scotland
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Why not try it and find out?

You could mention to the sensei which techniques are useless as they show them. It would save some time

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Old 05-05-2003, 02:03 PM   #3
erikmenzel
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Dojo: Aikidojo Leiderdorp
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Re: yoshinkan

Quote:
Peter Klein wrote:
useless nage forms like tenchi nage
Ok I'll bite.

What is so useless about Tenchi Nage?

Erik Jurrien Menzel
kokoro o makuru taisanmen ni hirake
Personal:www.kuipers-menzel.com
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Old 05-05-2003, 02:03 PM   #4
Nacho_mx
Dojo: Federación Mexicana de Aikido
Location: Mexico City
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Peter, you are not skilled/experienced enough to judge the value of a particular form or technique, you´d be surprised how powerful tenchinage can be.
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Old 05-05-2003, 02:39 PM   #5
Peter Klein
Dojo: Aikido Kreis Koeln (Germany)
Location: Cologne
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there is no yoshinkan dojo in the city i live. o.k sorry about the tenchi nage part i am not worthy of saying something like that cause I am not skilled enough.
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Old 05-05-2003, 02:47 PM   #6
Peter Klein
Dojo: Aikido Kreis Koeln (Germany)
Location: Cologne
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man i really am in love with yoshinkan aikido i want to do it damn. :-(
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Old 05-05-2003, 02:56 PM   #7
Steven
 
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Dojo: Aikido Yoshinkan Sacramento - Seikeikan Dojo
Location: Orangevale, CA
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Peter,

I do not know where you are, but here is the information I have on schools in Germany. I would recommend visiting one of them to find the answers you are seeking.

-----

1.

Aikido International

Instructor(s): Ricardo Stange del Carpio

Schleißheimerstr. 22

D - 80333 München Germany

Phone: +49(089)527567

Email: Aikido International (English,German)

http://www.aikido-international.de/ - German

2.

Aikido Wurzburg eV

Instructor(s): Ralf Siebenmark

Sedanstr. 25

D-97082 Wurzburg, Germany

Phone: +49(931)281387

http://www.aikido-wuerzburg.de/ - German

3.

Aikido Yoshinkan eV (IYAF)

Instructor(s): Hiromichi Nagano

Auenstr. 19

D-80469 Munich, Germany

Phone: +49(89)2012290

http://www.aikido-yoshinkai.de/ - German

4.

Kobukan Dojo

Instructor(s): Wolfgang Spielvogel

Hiltenspergerstr. 9;

Munich, Germany 80798

Phone: +49-89-30779806

http://www.kobukan.com/ - German

.. Steven Miranda ..
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Old 05-05-2003, 03:30 PM   #8
Peter Klein
Dojo: Aikido Kreis Koeln (Germany)
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thank you very much my friend, but they are 600 kilometers where I live, but I wont give up seeking pheraps I can find a high grade who lives in germany.
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Old 05-05-2003, 04:43 PM   #9
Steven
 
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Dojo: Aikido Yoshinkan Sacramento - Seikeikan Dojo
Location: Orangevale, CA
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Peter,

Good luck in your search. Please do contact the dojo to see if they do have someone in your area. If not, you can always move here to Sacramento and train with us.

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Old 05-05-2003, 05:01 PM   #10
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: yoshinkan

Quote:
Peter Klein wrote:
what are the certan characteristics of yoshinkan aikido that differ from aikikai. do u have to be stronger. are the useless nage forms like tenchi nage removed? etc... pls answer me thank you
You should be careful about such statements... I'll bet you think that tenchi nage requires a ryote tori attack... how about from a middle punch or front kick? Look at tenchi nage not just as a technique to split nage's physical energy but also as a way to split his attention. It is anything but a "useless" technique.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 05-05-2003, 05:29 PM   #11
Steven
 
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Dojo: Aikido Yoshinkan Sacramento - Seikeikan Dojo
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Re: Tenchi-nage....

It IS NOT removed from the Yoshinkan and in fact, is part of our kihon waza (150 basic techniques).
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Old 05-05-2003, 10:59 PM   #12
pointy
Dojo: aikido of park slope
Location: brooklyn, ny USA
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not to hijack th thread, but...

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
You should be careful about such statements... I'll bet you think that tenchi nage requires a ryote tori attack... how about from a middle punch or front kick?
Mr Ledyard,

what an awesome idea. i have no clue how you would go about doing that tho. I'm going to ask my sensei if we can work on that.

until then, how would one go about doing tenchi nage from a straight middle punch or kick like that?

thanks!

evan
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Old 05-06-2003, 03:49 AM   #13
creinig
Dojo: Yoshinkan Würzburg
Location: Würzburg (de)
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Quote:
Peter Klein wrote:
thank you very much my friend, but they are 600 kilometers where I live, but I wont give up seeking pheraps I can find a high grade who lives in germany.
There's also a group in Trier - no website yet, but email contact via webmaster@aikido-trier.de should work. There's also at least one in the netherlands, but unfortunately I don't have any adress at hand The folks at the main Munich dojo will know it though.

Additionally, this year's European Yoshinkan seminar is in Trier, 25th - 27th of July. Might be a good way to get to know the style
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Old 05-06-2003, 05:04 AM   #14
Peter Klein
Dojo: Aikido Kreis Koeln (Germany)
Location: Cologne
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yeah thank you i have been doing aikikai since september now, do u have to be a certan grade to take part in the seminar?
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Old 05-06-2003, 05:58 AM   #15
sanosuke
Dojo: Seigi Dojo
Location: Jakarta
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try to see the books or the videos first. I think books like "Total Aikido" and "Dynamic Aikido" reveals enough differences between yoshinkan and aikikai.
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Old 05-06-2003, 06:06 AM   #16
creinig
Dojo: Yoshinkan Würzburg
Location: Würzburg (de)
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Quote:
Peter Klein wrote:
yeah thank you i have been doing aikikai since september now, do u have to be a certan grade to take part in the seminar?
Nope. Just show up with an open mind and a desire to learn and you'll have an enjoyable experience
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Old 05-06-2003, 06:56 AM   #17
Alec Corper
 
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Tenchinage useless? What kind of Aikido are ou doing? Oh, you've been training since September and you've already discovered that the art that has been practised since before you were born is a non-effective practise. Please lets not descend into the idea that yoshinkan is "real" Aikido and aikikai isn't. Wht don't you ask your sensei for the practical applications of Tenshinage, and try to understand Ledyard Sensei's comments.

If you feel that you are wasting your time in your dojo find another one, but please try to refrain from such definitive comments based on such little experience. regards, Alec

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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Old 05-06-2003, 07:51 AM   #18
Kensai
Location: South West UK
Join Date: Jul 2002
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You've gotta watch for these brutal Yoshinkan types..... lol!

I have Total Aikido and Dynamic Aikido and it really "looks" no different to the Aikido I study.

Oh and Tenchi nage is great, especially the Irimi version.

"Minimum Effort, Maximum Effciency."
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Old 05-06-2003, 07:57 AM   #19
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Hi all,

Steven, I still remember a tenshinage that Chida Sensei taught at the last clinic of his I attended. Instead of entering, he used breath power to suck uke into tenshinage...his body pretty much didn't move, but suddenly your feet were in the air, and your head headed toward the mat. Talk about kool...

Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 05-06-2003, 09:34 AM   #20
Steven
 
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Dojo: Aikido Yoshinkan Sacramento - Seikeikan Dojo
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Hi Ron,

I've been on the receiving end of that by both Parker Sensei and Yamashita Sensei. It's a heck of a ride. The unification of your body and the mat is a memorable experience too.

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Old 05-06-2003, 04:29 PM   #21
Dave Miller
 
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Re: yoshinkan

Quote:
Peter Klein wrote:
useless nage forms like tenchi nage
Dang! I don't want to talk about how many times I've been put on the mat by that "useless" technique. It's also the "goto" technique" for the "bully has you pinned against your locker" situation.

I'm sorry you find it so useless. I suggest that you work on it and see how useful it can be.

Last edited by Dave Miller : 05-06-2003 at 04:31 PM.

DAVE

If you're working too hard, you're doing it wrong.
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Old 05-07-2003, 05:34 AM   #22
Peter Klein
Dojo: Aikido Kreis Koeln (Germany)
Location: Cologne
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well its like hugging actually. u had the end of the arm from the uke and go with your other arm over his neck as if you where trying to reach your other arm just like hugging him. i am really suprised that you find a form that is very similar to hugging effective. or is my dojo doing bullshit? and tenchi nage is really different?
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Old 05-07-2003, 06:12 AM   #23
rachmass
Dojo: Aikido of Cincinnati/Huron Valley Aikikai
Location: Somerset Michigan
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 794
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lambasting aikido techniques

Hello Peter,

Tenshi nage is a beautiful technique that works really well if you do it right. It takes no muscle, and works if you are tall or short (or somewhere in between). Perhaps you are just having trouble with this technique, and that if you continue to work on it, you will get it.

Both aikikai and yoshinkai are very valid forms of aikido. Just depends on what your particular bent is on which you prefer. There are many other styles out there that are just as valid, all of which could appeal to you more. Maybe it is the dojo you are in more than the particular style? I started my training in a ki society style dojo, and moved to aikikai after 8 plus years. It wasn't that I thought the ki style wasn't effective, it is just that I found I had more affinity for the aikikai style.

Good luck on this,

Rachel
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Old 05-07-2003, 08:00 AM   #24
Peter Klein
Dojo: Aikido Kreis Koeln (Germany)
Location: Cologne
Join Date: Apr 2003
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well my reall problem is that i think the style i do in my dojo isnt effective. i think they have put loads of destructivness out of the art and just made it really soft. please understand me people i dont want to be going to a dojo for 10 years and then notice i was doing 10 years of sh*t. pheraps i should check lots of dojos?
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Old 05-07-2003, 08:11 AM   #25
rachmass
Dojo: Aikido of Cincinnati/Huron Valley Aikikai
Location: Somerset Michigan
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Peter, if you have a lot of options in your area, then it is wise to go and check out a variety of dojos. You will quickly get a feel for what suits you personally. Everybody is different, and what appeals to one, doesn't necessarily appeal to another.

That said, I am in Yoshinkan mecca, but it doesn't appeal to me. When I started there was only Yoshinkan and Ki Society. When an Aikikai dojo opened in the area, I was there in a heartbeat. As I said, we are all different, and what suits me won't necessarily suit you. Check em' out, and decide for yourself what "feels right".
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