Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-01-2003, 10:19 AM   #1
John Boswell
 
John Boswell's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland, Texas
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Ai symbol How do you define Atemi? and how do you use it ?

A very interesting thread is currently underway in this forum that has drifted onto the subject of Atemi. (click on link)

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...&threadid=3452

I would like to put the subject of Atemi itself on the stand here. Just what IS Atemi? How do YOU teach it? How do YOU use it? And do you believe you are in line with O'Sensei and his teachings?

Atemi is defined as:
Quote:
ATEMI
Strike; blow. Used to distract or unbalance the attacker during execution of a technique.
http://www.aikidojournal.com/new/enc...asp?entryID=50


According to the Japan Aikido Association:
Quote:
The atemi waza in aikido are used to break an opponent's balance, the aim is not to inflict injury with the impact of a strike punch or kick. Consequently, there is no need for any special training to toughen the hands, fists, etc.
http://<br /> <a href="http://homep...yogi7.html</a>

As I am a first year student of Aikido, I admit I know nothing on the subject but what I have read and been taught. However, when a debate takes place on a subject I am interested in, I like to dive in and learn as much as I can... strike while the iron is hot. So, if you have a voice on this subject, I'd like to listen! Let's hear it!

PS: I've searched far and wide but can not find what O'Sensei himself has said on this subject, else I would quote it here for you. If anyone has such a link or quote, I'd be very interested in that too.

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2003, 12:12 PM   #2
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,633
Offline
Atemi in Aikido

Quote:
John Boswell wrote:
A very interesting thread is currently underway in this forum that has drifted onto the subject of Atemi. (click on link)

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...&threadid=3452

I would like to put the subject of Atemi itself on the stand here. Just what IS Atemi? How do YOU teach it? How do YOU use it? And do you believe you are in line with O'Sensei and his teachings?

Atemi is defined as:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/new/enc...asp?entryID=50

According to the Japan Aikido Association:

http://<br /> <br /> <a href="http:/...yogi7.html</a>

As I am a first year student of Aikido, I admit I know nothing on the subject but what I have read and been taught. However, when a debate takes place on a subject I am interested in, I like to dive in and learn as much as I can... strike while the iron is hot. So, if you have a voice on this subject, I'd like to listen! Let's hear it!

PS: I've searched far and wide but can not find what O'Sensei himself has said on this subject, else I would quote it here for you. If anyone has such a link or quote, I'd be very interested in that too.
Hi John,

I've posted this link before, apologies to thiose who have seen it already. But it's a lot easire than repeating the same ideas everytime this question comes up so check out:

Atemi in Aikido

I hope this makes some things more clear and raises more questions for your training to address.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2003, 12:36 PM   #3
DaveO
Dojo: Great Wave Aikido
Location: Alberta, Canada
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 543
Canada
Offline
Terrific articles; George, I learned a lot. Thank you.

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2003, 05:59 PM   #4
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
John:

See me in class I can give you a lot of references on the topic.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2003, 06:40 PM   #5
aiki_what
"aiki_what"
IP Hash: bdcb7078
Join Date: Jul 2000
Anonymous User
Offline
Atemi- The intent to strike
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2003, 04:11 AM   #6
Bud
Dojo: Aikido Philippines
Location: Manila
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 70
Philippines
Offline
the short answers (my 2 cents anyway)..

Definition of atemi - a strike that is intended to distract an attacker prior to and during and after the application of a technique.

uses - depends on circumstances, I either apply it as an alternative to the orthodox response to a attack (like applying atemi in response to a yokomen uchi), in the middle of the technique to cover an "opening" on my part(uchi kaiten, some kokyu nage) and as a finishing blow with the uke on the ground (shiho nage).
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2003, 05:36 AM   #7
sanosuke
Dojo: Seigi Dojo
Location: Jakarta
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 247
Indonesia
Offline
atemi is defined as 'strikes' used for off-balancing opponent. But i think atemi is not only 'strikes' but also things you do to distract your enemies. A snap of your finger or oface your palm in front of uke's face can mean an atemi too, at least these kind of atemi is what our dojo emphasized instead in form of punching or elbow strike.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2003, 08:10 AM   #8
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
The following are some definitions I have come up with from the aikido literature (I'm only reporting so those of you that detest the topic please give me a break): set up blows for techniques; strikes to vital points for distraction or unbalancing; blows to disturb ki; control and balance taking (kuzushi) blows; termination of the attacker; a neutralizing force; a blow to end confrontation causing disability, unconsciousness, or death; a method to facilitate technique due to pain compliance, energy shifting or posture alteration; and use as a method to control the attacker's mind.

Atemi can be used to distract the attacker, break balance, set up technique, cause coordination difficulties, shut down or alter the nervous system, cause numbness or weakness to limbs, damage tissue, and kill.

Disclaimer: These definitions and comments are from the aikido literature and an internet survey. They are not the end all of possible definitions and some aspects may not fit the aikido paradigm of some aikidoka. Multiple influences affect how one perceives the topic: prior training and experience; philosophy; legal issues; one's paradigm of aikido; organization membership; and interest.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2003, 01:56 PM   #9
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Nice disclaimer...may I borrow that?

RT

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2003, 04:23 PM   #10
jxa127
Dojo: Itten Dojo -- Mechanicsburg, PA
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 420
Offline
Hey Ron,

What did you think of Ellis's use of atemi at the seminar we both attended?

For others: Ellis Amdur put on a fantastic seminar near Harrisburg, PA in January. He did a lot of work on atemi, showing us all of the different opportunities for strikes exist in aikido techniques.

My impression is that Ellis considers atemi as valid and valuable techniques in their own right, not simply as distractions.

Regards,

----
-Drew Ames
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2003, 05:33 PM   #11
deepsoup
Dojo: Sheffield Shodokan Dojo
Location: Sheffield, UK
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 524
Offline
Just to add a bit more to the mix:

Kenji Tomiki had an interesting perspective on Atemi, which is probably a bit different to most of the definitions that have come up so far.

The way he saw it aikido techniques basically fall into two categories, atemi waza and kansetsu waza. And in trying to come up with a safe system of 'competitive' randori, he saw two distinct ways to classify them:

" 1. The atemi-waza control an opponent by hitting, thrusting into, or kicking the physiological weak points of the body; while the kansetsu-waza control an opponent by inflicting a sprain or dislocation on a joint. That is to say, these techniques were devised with the purpose of maiming or killing, and so are fundamentally dangerous.

2. The atemi-waza topple an opponent by applying force to the mechanical weak points of the attacker's body in order to gain kuzushi, the breaking balance, and then push him over; while the kansetsu-waza restrain an opponent with a minimum of force by utilizing the limits of joint movement to pin the opponent down. "

The first category are probably the atemi waza that most aikidoists think of as 'atemi', but in the terminology used in Shodokan a lot of important techniques are classified as atemi-waza of that second variety.

A couple of examples are irimi nage and tenchi nage (both varieties of aigamaeate in Shodokan terminology), and sokumen irimi nage (gyakugamaeate). And if you think about tenchi nage for example, you can see how it might fit into the first category too - sure your 'heaven' hand can go over uke's shoulder, but it can just as easily smash into uke's face.

Sean

x

ps: The quoted bit is from Fumiaki Shishida and Robert Dziubla's 1986 translation of Kenji Tomiki's essay "On Jujutsu and its Modernisation" from the JAA/USA website. -I'm sure its on the Shodokan Honbu website too, but since it was revamped I can't seem to find it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2003, 08:21 PM   #12
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
Any time Ron. I just made the disclaimer up on the fly since I've had a few daggers thrown at me (not the topic) lately when discussing the issue.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2003, 08:37 PM   #13
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,046
Japan
Offline
Hi Sean;

Is this what you are looking for.

http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi8.html

Also there is an new section under articles that you may find interesting.

http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/articles.html

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2003, 03:49 AM   #14
deepsoup
Dojo: Sheffield Shodokan Dojo
Location: Sheffield, UK
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 524
Offline
Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
Hi Sean;

Is this what you are looking for.

http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi8.html

Also there is an new section under articles that you may find interesting.

http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/articles.html
Hi Peter,

That'll be it, I actually looked right at it yesterday and didn't recognise it, D'Oh! (Its organised a little differently to the version I've seen before, and the translation seems to have been tightened up a bit here and there.)

Thanks for pointing out those articles, I think I'll print them out and read them properly at leisure. (There's something about reading things off a vdu that makes the material difficult to take in, or maybe thats just me. )

Regards

Sean.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2003, 10:24 AM   #15
jxa127
Dojo: Itten Dojo -- Mechanicsburg, PA
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 420
Offline
Quote:
Sean Orchard (deepsoup) wrote:
Just to add a bit more to the mix:

1. The atemi-waza control an opponent by hitting, thrusting into, or kicking the physiological weak points of the body; while the kansetsu-waza control an opponent by inflicting a sprain or dislocation on a joint. That is to say, these techniques were devised with the purpose of maiming or killing, and so are fundamentally dangerous.

2. The atemi-waza topple an opponent by applying force to the mechanical weak points of the attacker's body in order to gain kuzushi, the breaking balance, and then push him over; while the kansetsu-waza restrain an opponent with a minimum of force by utilizing the limits of joint movement to pin the opponent down.

The first category are probably the atemi waza that most aikidoists think of as 'atemi', but in the terminology used in Shodokan a lot of important techniques are classified as atemi-waza of that second variety.
Actually, the second category is more in line with the usual aikido idea that one can use atemi to distract or off-balance an uke. The first category is more in line with what I experienced at Ellis Amdur's seminar, however, he also showed how being aware of, and training with atemi made the non-atemi version of techniques better.
Quote:
A couple of examples are irimi nage and tenchi nage (both varieties of aigamaeate in Shodokan terminology), and sokumen irimi nage (gyakugamaeate). And if you think about tenchi nage for example, you can see how it might fit into the first category too - sure your 'heaven' hand can go over uke's shoulder, but it can just as easily smash into uke's face.

Sean
Sean,

I like your example for tenchi nage. The thing is, I can see a strike to the face, in the manner you describe, as fitting into both of the categories. So I guess that atemiwaza needn't be fitted neatly into one category or the other.

Thoughts?

Regards,

----
-Drew Ames
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2003, 04:41 PM   #16
deepsoup
Dojo: Sheffield Shodokan Dojo
Location: Sheffield, UK
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 524
Offline
Quote:
Drew Ames (jxa127) wrote:
I like your example for tenchi nage. The thing is, I can see a strike to the face, in the manner you describe, as fitting into both of the categories. So I guess that atemiwaza needn't be fitted neatly into one category or the other.
I agree entirely, Drew, the boundaries are blurred.

In fact tenchi nage (aigamaeate) is most often practiced with the strike to the face in Shodokan dojos, and definitely fits into that second category as the strike's usually done in a 'low impact' kind of a way. (If a 'low impact' strike makes sense - maybe its a blending thing.)

There are some animated GIF's of Prof. Tomiki's five basic 'atemi waza' techniques here and here, if it helps to make sense of what I'm waffling on about.

The essay I quoted from was mainly concerned with Prof. Tomiki's efforts to develop a safe system of 'competitive' randori, so I think the point of making that distinction was to classify which atemi can safely be allowed in competition and which can only be practiced in regular 'cooperative' training.

Ellis Amdur's course sounds interesting. He was over here not so long ago, but work commitments kept me from going. Looks like I missed out.

Regards

Sean

x

Last edited by deepsoup : 03-05-2003 at 04:49 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2003, 06:57 AM   #17
jxa127
Dojo: Itten Dojo -- Mechanicsburg, PA
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 420
Offline
Sean,

Thanks for posting those links. The animations are very interesting.

You said:
Quote:
In fact tenchi nage (aigamaeate) is most often practiced with the strike to the face in Shodokan dojos, and definitely fits into that second category as the strike's usually done in a 'low impact' kind of a way. (If a 'low impact' strike makes sense - maybe its a blending thing.)
I know exactly what you mean. A few of us played around with variations on what you describe at an open mat session before last night's class. We struck the face, but then went past it to finish the technique.

Regards,

----
-Drew Ames
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2003, 08:09 PM   #18
mura-san
Dojo: Takemusu Aikido España
Location: spain
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 13
Offline
Hello i'm spanish aikido's student,sorry for my bad english.

About of this post,i'm think that the answer to the atemi in aikido there is in the fundator Ueshiba's book BUDO,becuse it's legacy for the study of aikido.

it's the most important file over the aikido for stundet that "open his mind's eye"

There are in the book some photograpy of Ueshiba's atemis art,there are more of one atemi for page,it include text for the ensinament of where used atemi in the body's partner.

You can said me that this text is before to the war,it's true but in the book there are photograpy of wakayama time over 1951 whit terribel atemi of old Ueshiba.

This is one of the foundator's legacy for the aikido we don't forget it.Buy you the book over other text of aikido,it is going to be necesary more times for own study to the atemi and more..."open you mind eye".

A lot of salutes of Spain.

PD:more intersting page of foro in spain http://faserline.com/aikiforum/index.php

Last edited by mura-san : 03-08-2003 at 08:17 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2003, 12:46 PM   #19
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Hi Drew, just got back to this post. Yep, I loved Ellis's seminar. I'd go again in a minute (sides, I'd get to see some folks again).

On Tenshinage...I recently kind of fell into a new (for me) version: top hand starts off palm out away from uke (but on the inside of the wrist), then as the bottom hand unballances uke, you cut with the tegatana to uke's neck/collar bone. Done well, it produces some **really** nice flying ukemi With good forward focus and a little momentum, uke's feet go all the way over the top, their body basically rotating around the bottom hand. A nice variation after the initial xstep...

xstep in once, lower hand unbalances, xstep in again cut, xstep back as you complete the cut. Be carefull of uke...if you drop them out of their fall too quick, they land on their head.

RT

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2003, 02:43 PM   #20
Tim Clark
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 2
Offline
According to Shioda soke, Ueshiba sensei said, "in a real battle, technique is thirty percent, atemi is seventy percent". Atemi is also defined by Shioda as, "whenever you make contact with focused power [this is atemi], so it is possible to make atemi with any part of your body."
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2003, 03:17 PM   #21
John Boswell
 
John Boswell's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland, Texas
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Tim,

Not that I doubt you and what you say, but have you seen anything written as far as Atemi, percentages and what O'Sensei has said?

I've heard something similar to what you just said, though it was more 90%? Again, I'm not saying one is right or wrong, just wondering if anything like this was written down somewhere.

Thanks!

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2003, 03:47 PM   #22
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
According to John Steven's the percentage depends on who you read. I've seen anywhere from 70 to 99% quoted.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2003, 07:39 PM   #23
W^2
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 53
United_States
Offline
Do symbol Food for thought

If you think broadly about Shioda Soke's definition of Atemi - "whenever you make contact with focused power [this is Atemi]" - then you could restate it as ‘intentionally directed energy at the point of contact', and for the sake of simplicity I'll limit the point of contact to the physical domain. Applying the broader definition to Aikido we find that all techniques are Atemi, and the seeming controversy over the application of Atemi in Aikido becomes an argument for which technique is appropriate for a given situation. Hence, which of the three ‘Atemi' is appropriate should be rather straightforward given the specific circumstance, personal belief systems not withstanding. In this way we can see how Aikido is Atemi used in harmony with a situation, instead of viewing it on the surface as merely ‘striking' or some other pugilistic connotation. Again, this is just an application limited to the physical side of techniques. I don't mean to suggest here that Kiai and Aiki are one and the same, as they are obviously complimentary.

Actually, given the variable of ‘contact', inductive logic yields an even broader definition -- ‘ Intentionally affecting [the energy of] some other system ‘ - such as a training partner for instance. The notion of intention brings us back full circle to the difference between Aikido and ‘Striking' Martial Arts, although I would say that many seek to achieve balance/harmony as well.

If you think about this carefully, you will find that what appears to be very different on the surface - the differing Martial Arts - are in fact connected in deep ways.



Anyhow, these are just some of my thoughts on the subject -- it's just food for thought.

~ Ward
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2003, 05:09 AM   #24
aikido_fudoshin
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 97
Offline
It was in "Aikido Shugyo" that the 70% atemi comment was made. Shioda states that this percentage applies when your life is threatened and faced with multiple attackers. In a situation like this you will often not have much time to perform a throw, or a lock therefore a quick and powerful blow is a necessity. He also states that when dealing with a drunk you will probably want to use a locking technique. Just as it was previously stated, atemi depends on the situation at hand.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2003, 08:33 AM   #25
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,633
Offline
Atemi

Quote:
Bryan Siekierko (aikido_fudoshin) wrote:
It was in "Aikido Shugyo" that the 70% atemi comment was made. Shioda states that this percentage applies when your life is threatened and faced with multiple attackers. In a situation like this you will often not have much time to perform a throw, or a lock therefore a quick and powerful blow is a necessity. He also states that when dealing with a drunk you will probably want to use a locking technique. Just as it was previously stated, atemi depends on the situation at hand.
Last year at the Aiki Expo we were sitting at breakfast with Goldsbury Sensei chatting about various subjects and this one came up. He stated that the number isn't 70% or 90% but 100%. At this point I agree with him.

Saotome Sensei said that if one knew that the opponent wouldn't strike him, ALL techniques would be stoppable. In other words whether you see the atemi or not, the need to keep ones energy evenly distributed and not narrowly focused on defeating a particular technique is what allows you to do technique in which the atemi contained within stays inplicit rather than becoming explicit.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:10 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate