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Old 04-29-2003, 12:21 PM   #26
Michael Neal
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It seems that I was doing Judo anyway, that version of iriminage is also taught in Judo called one of the forms of antiquity, and the sacrifice throw was identical to Judo's Yoko Otoshi.

KOTE-GAESHI is a Judo technique as well, it is just not legal in competition.
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Old 04-29-2003, 09:23 PM   #27
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Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
It seems that I was doing Judo anyway, that version of iriminage is also taught in Judo called one of the forms of antiquity, and the sacrifice throw was identical to Judo's Yoko Otoshi.

KOTE-GAESHI is a Judo technique as well, it is just not legal in competition.
A good point that we shouldn't forget. Judo encompases Kata as well as Randori with the former containing many techniques not seen in randori. Lest we forget Judo's Goshin Jutsu is very Aikido like. One might say that was through Kenji Tomiki's influence yet as I understand it many of the techniques are found in a number of jujutsu schools not just that of Daito-ryu and Ueshiba M.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 04-30-2003, 12:51 AM   #28
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Re: Re: Re: Aikido in Judo Randori

Jonathan Wong

>What do you think? Or is nikkyo illegal in >judo?

I'm not crash hot with nikkyo. (though I spent most of last night drilling it from that exact situation). Perhaps it would work, but not by me ;-)

Yes it's illegal. The only joint you're allowed to attack in randori is the elbow. (though, if you're clever, you can get to the shoulder, spine and knees. And it looks perfectly innocent and legal. The devil is in the details ;-)

Chris Gee

> The pic is nothing like what I was trying to > discribe

I still can't quite make out the technique. Is it either this...

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/sodetsur.gif

this

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/anima...ikomigoshi.htm

or this ?

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/anima...e/ukigoshi.htm

Anyway, good stuff ;-)

Judo's "aiki" techniques can be seen here

http://www.judoinfo.com/video4.htm

Look under the "Kote" series for example.

Last edited by bob_stra : 04-30-2003 at 12:55 AM.
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Old 04-30-2003, 01:19 AM   #29
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All three of the kote techniques are versions regularily practiced in the Shodokan (Kenji Tomiki's) Dojo. The execution, with the exception of some finer points, is almost identical. OK my head is a little thick today but can some one confirm that the techniques labelled as self defence come from Tomiki's Goshin Jutsu. I thought I knew them to see them but all of a sudden am not so sure.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 04-30-2003, 03:49 AM   #30
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bob_stra, it looks a lot like Uki Goshi. But instead of the arm arond the waist you use that same arm to push down on there right.

"Minimum Effort, Maximum Effciency."
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Old 04-30-2003, 02:14 PM   #31
Michael Neal
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I got the following links from the judo information site: http://judoinfo.com/video4.htm

These are listed ast judo techniques.

Here is kotegaeshi

http://www.suginoharyu.com/html/vide...e%20gaeshi.mpg

Sankyo (called kote hineri)

http://www.suginoharyu.com/html/vide...e%20hineri.mpg

Nikyo (called kote mawashi)

http://www.suginoharyu.com/html/vide...%20mawashi.mpg
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Old 04-30-2003, 09:41 PM   #32
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Yes but Neal the point is what is their origin. A number of Aikido techniques found their way into the Judo kata via Kenji Tomiki in the 50s. Once incorporated of course they were Judo techniques.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-01-2003, 06:16 AM   #33
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Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
I got the short version of iriminage to work where you pull down and back on uke's shoulders to get him to fall backwards. It worked when my partner was shooting in for my legs, with irimi I got behind him and dropped him when he tried to turn and face again. The sacrice throw worked nicely because my partner was stiff arming me and pushing me forward, I dropped to the ground while pulling him over me.
I think we sometimes forget how powerful some of our techniques are on people who don't expect them. I see people analising to the nth degree how to get uke to move around you properly for irimi nage or say kote gaeshi. Forgetting that the techniques are designed that once you take uke's balance, 90% of them will move exactly where you want them to go - like Mike's guy turning to face him and walking into an irimi nage.

I remember talking to a karete-ka (kyokushinkai) who had been playing with an Aikidoka and he was amazed that everytime he tried to recover his balance/position, the aikidoka would do something new to take it. Never realising he was probably moving in exactly the way our ukes are trained to (and get accused of being overly cooperative). So where he thought the aikidoka was coming up with instant strategies to keep him off balance, chances were he was just going through kihon.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-01-2003, 08:53 AM   #34
Michael Neal
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Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
Yes but Neal the point is what is their origin. A number of Aikido techniques found their way into the Judo kata via Kenji Tomiki in the 50s. Once incorporated of course they were Judo techniques.
All I was trying to show was that the two arts share many of the same techniques not what the origins were. I was suprised to see someone doing sankyo, nikkyo etc. in a judo video, it made me think how similar the two arts are.

Yet when you enter newaza into the picture, they become more distant.
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Old 05-01-2003, 10:00 AM   #35
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Michael -

So, has the "rematch" happened yet. What has turned out to be effective?
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Old 05-01-2003, 12:01 PM   #36
Michael Neal
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Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich (bob_stra) wrote:
Michael -

So, has the "rematch" happened yet. What has turned out to be effective?
I did not get a chance to use much Aikido last Judo class. I did however use some kokyu movements on the gound, the principle of it has helped me set up pins of some much larger opponents.

The funny thing is that I thought that I would like the ground fighting the least when I started Judo and now I like it better than stand up.

A 14 year old girl almost beat me in stand up randori though because I took the match too lightly and she came out fighting like a pit bull. I was so shocked by her aggressiveness that I forgot to try any Aikido techniques.

Maybe I will get a chance to try next class, if I am not beaten by some kid first.
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Old 05-01-2003, 12:50 PM   #37
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Nikkyo in competitive randori

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich (bob_stra) wrote:
Jonathan Wong

>What do you think? Or is nikkyo illegal in >judo?

(a little snippage)

Yes it's illegal. The only joint you're allowed to attack in randori is the elbow. (though, if you're clever, you can get to the shoulder, spine and knees. And it looks perfectly innocent and legal. The devil is in the details ;-)
Besides being illegal, nikkyo is also rather dangerous in a randori/shiai situation, so best avoided. Its also illegal in (Shodokan) aikido shiai, for the same reason - thats one technique we just have to save for 'cooperative' practice.

Sean

x
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Old 05-01-2003, 12:59 PM   #38
shihonage
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Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
A 14 year old girl almost beat me in stand up randori though because I took the match too lightly and she came out fighting like a pit bull. I was so shocked by her aggressiveness that I forgot to try any Aikido techniques.
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Old 05-01-2003, 01:14 PM   #39
Michael Neal
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Quote:
Aleksey Sundeyev (shihonage) wrote:
LOL, EEK! is about right. I thought I would take it easy on her and she definately took full advantage. She was throwing lightning fast foot sweeps over and over again I was tripping all over the place trying not to fall.

I am actually more scared to fight her again than some of the big gnarly brown belts in class.
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Old 05-01-2003, 06:42 PM   #40
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
All I was trying to show was that the two arts share many of the same techniques not what the origins were. I was suprised to see someone doing sankyo, nikkyo etc. in a judo video, it made me think how similar the two arts are.

Yet when you enter newaza into the picture, they become more distant.
They do at that - Kenji Tomiki considered the two to be essentially the same - seperated only by ma ai.

Funny about the newaza though - I still feel more comfortable on the ground when doing Judo.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-02-2003, 03:16 AM   #41
bob_stra
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Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
A 14 year old girl almost beat me in stand up randori though because I took the match too lightly and she came out fighting like a pit bull. I was so shocked by her aggressiveness that I forgot to try any Aikido techniques.

Maybe I will get a chance to try next class, if I am not beaten by some kid first.
Can we laugh and point in your general direction if you get beat by a pre-pubescent girl? ;-)

PS: If she's at all shorter than you, you can foot sweep her into oblivion while stiff arming her. Chances are she won't have the strength or the savvy to get around that.

Unless she's been doing judo since birth ;-)
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Old 05-02-2003, 03:28 AM   #42
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Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich (bob_stra) wrote:
Can we laugh and point in your general direction if you get beat by a pre-pubescent girl? ;-)

PS: If she's at all shorter than you, you can foot sweep her into oblivion while stiff arming her. Chances are she won't have the strength or the savvy to get around that.

Unless she's been doing judo since birth ;-)
You'd be laughing at me - never underestimate the pre-pubescent girl. I do my duty with the kids at the local Judo club and there is a twelve year old girl who is in a word - serious. There's no guy her age that has a chance and she gives me a good work out. Then of course is my daughter - she doesn't even need Judo to tear me to shreds (not that she would).

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-02-2003, 04:12 AM   #43
Aristeia
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Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
You'd be laughing at me - never underestimate the pre-pubescent girl. I do my duty with the kids at the local Judo club and there is a twelve year old girl who is in a word - serious. There's no guy her age that has a chance and she gives me a good work out. Then of course is my daughter - she doesn't even need Judo to tear me to shreds (not that she would).
I'm with you. We have a judo kids class train before us, and one night one of the 14 year olds was comoplaining he didn't get to shiai like the others. I often show up early to watch the end of the class so the instructor pointed at me and said "fight him he'll give you a go". And it was a struggle. Sure he was big for a 14 yr old and strong, and I was playing under unfamiliar rules, but still. Didn't help that just as we started tusstling my students started filing through the dooor and I'm thinking "if they see me get waxed by this kid I'll never live it down"

Thankfully he eventually tried to force a tomoe nage which I blocked and jumped to knee on stomach like it was a long lost friend...

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-02-2003, 04:25 AM   #44
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Re: Nikkyo in competitive randori

Quote:
Sean Orchard (deepsoup) wrote:
Besides being illegal, nikkyo is also rather dangerous in a randori/shiai situation, so best avoided. Its also illegal in (Shodokan) aikido shiai, for the same reason - thats one technique we just have to save for 'cooperative' practice.
Hi Sean;

Love that cooperative stuff. A couple of weeks ago Nariyama was teaching a variation of this and several of us were lined up and being done by him in turn. No one backed out even though it was clear he was meaning it to hurt. I was last, took the position, and he just smiled and gently put me down. I was ALMOST disappointed.

Still in randori you are allowed to use gyakugamai gyakudori which is basically the nikkyo grip. Its the downward crunch that's forbidden for the same reason that dropping onto the elbow in wakagatamae is. Serious damage can result and neither is really necessary for getting control.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-02-2003, 04:26 AM   #45
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Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
You'd be laughing at me - never underestimate the pre-pubescent girl.
If I may segue...

Men are in some ways taught to be "nice" to their female sparring partners. Invariably this bites both parties in the ass -

(1) You allow yourself to get beat up

(2) The said female in question gets an inflated opinion of her skills. This is *extremely* dangerous for her, because it gives an impression of being able to defend herself before she actually can. Thus leading to the "Xena complex".

I've seen this in aikido, judo, bjj and boxing. Aikido IME may be the worst for fostering this kind of thing.

I find it hard to envisage any sort of even vaguely trained male having troubles from 14 yr old girls. Or 14yr old boys for that matter.

Though I could be wrong. It happens from time to time ;-)
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Old 05-02-2003, 04:55 AM   #46
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Bob - we're having a bit of fun here.

However, children are children, and kohei are kohei. My job is to give them something to work with and if they do good give some recognition. It's the teaching experience. A kick ass Nidan will do the same to me - he'll work on what he needs and makes sure I work on what I need. And you know everyone knows what's going on. Kids/women are not dumb.

Secondly - the All Japan Junior High School Champion comes from my village. He started in my dojo. He's 15 but you wouldn't know it by looking at him. He outweighs me and outskills me. My regular training partner is 30 kg heavier than me and is now in cop school. I never had a chance with him but that young man destroyed him. I am sure he could have absolutely obliterated me a year ago also.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-02-2003, 10:08 AM   #47
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Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
Bob - we're having a bit of fun here.
Of course - I got a little side tracked there.

Kids are a *blessing* to work with. Once our little judo club started closing down, all we had left were the young 'uns. Best of times and worst of times all in one.

I'd hazard a guess to say you could actually *learn* more from kids than a kick ass, killer black belt. (Or even the dreaded green belt sensei's).

Kids are fun ;-) I feel my previous point is valid, though it belongs on another thread.

Having said that, the whole thing of Judo : Aikido mystifies me a little. They're the same and yet radically different. The taisabaki is particularly frustrating to me at times, and I think the ukemi skills needed for aikido are a level of magnitude above those needed for judo. Also the kuzushi is different.

If someone put a gun to my head and said "choose one", I'm not entirely sure I could

;-)

PS: I'd love to see how / if tomiki randori bridges the judo : aikido gap. Are there any clips or such on the net? I know you tomiki folks do three differnt types of randori, but that's abt all I know of it.
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Old 05-02-2003, 11:21 AM   #48
Michael Neal
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I find it hard to envisage any sort of even vaguely trained male having troubles from 14 yr old girls. Or 14yr old boys for that matter.
Its not hard to have trouble knowing that you look like an idiot whether you win or lose and that you would most likely look like a jerk if you picked the kid up and slammed them on the ground using pure strength, or if I resorted to an Aikido technique that she could not take ukemi from.

As it happens, she ended up getting a little hurt because she collided into my leg with her body when I was going for O soto gari and she was holding her ribs afterwards. I think this happened because she was flailing around so much. I got a ippon but at what expense, she might have bruised ribs or something now. I am actually thinking now that I should have lost the match instead.

The potential for injury in this kind of situation is high so I think it was wise that I did not use alot of force with her.

For any other opponent this injury would not have been a big deal, maybe it is expected from time to time, but she is a kid after all.
The way I see it it is ok for adults to accidently injur other adults and kids to injur other kids but not for adults to injur kids.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 05-02-2003 at 11:31 AM.
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Old 05-02-2003, 11:29 AM   #49
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Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
The potential for injury in this kind of situation is high so I think it was wise that I did not use alot of force with her.
My bad. I misunderstood what you had written the first time.

Not much point in hurting folks if you can avoid it.

Though it might have given you a unique chance to use aikido - a committed, uncontrolled opponent to immobilize gently with aikido?

From what you've written, it seems that mostly judo techniques work in judo randori, despite the fact they might remind you of aikido movements?
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Old 05-02-2003, 11:33 AM   #50
Michael Neal
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I don't know how to immobilize anyone gently with Aikido. Most techniques I know are either pretty painful or require more ukemi skills than this kid probably had.

As with other who posted earlier, I find it hard to do judo in judo randori so Aikido gives me another option if the situation permits.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 05-02-2003 at 11:44 AM.
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