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Old 06-04-2003, 12:25 PM   #51
akiy
 
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Quote:
Charles Hill wrote:
By "back breakfall," do you mean where uke's legs "kip up" like off a clothesline type technique?
Right. Basically the way that I do it (although it more resembles a half-frozen fish flopping onto the groun moreso than a silent, graceful ukemi), the "inside" arm (closer to nage touches the ground first, then the shoulder, then across the back to either the other shoulder or the opposite hip.

There are variations to this ukemi, of course. I saw one of the uchideshi folks from Yoshinkan Hombu dojo do this kind of ukemi for Inoue sensei, although a bit differently, very silently and elegantly, indeed. Quite nice. I'm hoping the person who took the ukemi will be at the Aiki Expo again this year since I want to talk to him about the ukemi...
Quote:
Does Donovan Waite just show it, or does he teach it clearly?
If I remember correctly (since I haven't wanted the video in a while since I donated it to the dojo video library), he does demonstrate it quite well (of course) and his first video provides pointers on getting that fall as well.

There are exercises designed to help folks with the basic feel of the technique without having to kick up the feet. They look a bit like an upside-down barrel (sideways) roll at first, but does help in learning this ukemi. (It's basically like the description that I wrote in the paragraph above except with the feet on the ground and the roll occuring from hand to arm to shoulder to other shoulder -- all with the butt off the ground. More easily seen than described, I'm afraid...
Quote:
BTW, I really wish people would go to the video section here and clearly describe and comment on the videos listed. If it helps one, the videos are quite cheap, but if it is not what one needs, they are expensive.
Yes. I encourage people to take a look through the Videos section of this site and review the videos there. It can only go to help out folks out there who are curious about the videos...

Hope that helps.

-- Jun

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Old 06-04-2003, 01:24 PM   #52
Ron Tisdale
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The yoshinkan does indeed do the soft version of the tobu ukemi, and it is quite nice. I'm lousy at it...hyaku ukemi is one thing, but whenever I try to do it quietly I fail. I have seen some who are truly masters at it though. They seem to be able to do it even when there is a lot of power in the through. I think it helps to be young and flexible.

Ron

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Old 06-04-2003, 03:00 PM   #53
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Quote:
Jun Akiyama (akiy) wrote:
I believe John, I, and some others who are talking about the soft breakfall is more referring to the soft breakfall done out of a front breakfall (eg out of kotegaeshi). This breakfall is not on either of Donovan Waite's videos...
Yes, it is. I beleive he calls it mae yoko kaiten. Watch the tape again and take a look at that technique.

People who do that fall will use it out of kotegaeshi in the same way that I would use a harder breakfall that involves both legs extended and slapping the mat sequentially. In Donovan's version, the legs are bent slightly and he sits up a little more to reduce the impact. It is the same fall, only the execution is different.
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Old 06-04-2003, 03:04 PM   #54
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Giancarlo DiPierro (G DiPierro) wrote:
Yes, it is. I beleive he calls it mae yoko kaiten. Watch the tape again and take a look at that technique.
I'll see if I can get the tape and watch it again. I seem to remember, though, hoping that the front soft breakfall would be on his tape when I got it but was disappointed that it wasn't.

-- Jun

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Old 06-04-2003, 11:02 PM   #55
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Hi everyone,

So I went and borrowed Donovan Waite's Ukemi tape tonight and I just fast-forward watched it...

It does contain, as Giancarlo points out, the "mae yoko kaiten" rolling, but it's not the soft breakfall that John and I are talking about. In fact, the tape doesn't show the soft breakfall as we're discussing at all. (And, if I remember correctly, the second tape does not either, as I was rather expecting it to do so but, disappointedly at the time, it didn't...)

The "mae yoko kaiten" is basically a normal forward roll with the "yoko kaiten" method of getting back up -- I've also heard this being called the "roley poley" method of getting back up as well.

The soft breakfall that John and I are talking about has the hand that's usually slapping (in a regular breakfall) touch the ground first and is, in fact, a breakfall/highfall rather than a roll. Although I do know that Donovan's students often perform the mae yoko kaiten in place of a breakfall, it's different from what we're talking about.

That roll, though, can be used in certain ways , though. You can emphasize the "dampening" or "absorbing" part of the soft breakfall by doing the mae yoko kaiten ukemi without letting the feet/leg touch the ground; in other words, you'd go over into the roll, extend the "slapping"/reaching arm out over your head, let it touch the ground like a pseudopod, then use that arm to keep the lower body from impacting and going into the yoko kaiten. This, I think, will teach the arm its proper function for the breakfall -- ie basically absorbing the fall rather than breaking it.

In any case, I hope that helps the discussion here...

-- Jun

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Old 06-05-2003, 06:47 AM   #56
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Quote:
Jun Akiyama (akiy) wrote:
It does contain, as Giancarlo points out, the "mae yoko kaiten" rolling, but it's not the soft breakfall that John and I are talking about. In fact, the tape doesn't show the soft breakfall as we're discussing at all.
OK, now I see where the confusion started. You and John are discussing a different fall than Ken Sparrow and the others. You seem to be referring to a soft version of the flat judo-style breakfall. I have never seen this ukemi, and Donovan Waite certainly doesn't do it. In fact, my guess would be that the reason why the flat judo breakfall was left off his tape completely is that he doesn't know a soft version of it.

In the USAF-E, the flat judo breakfall is not recommended for that many techniques. Its use is limited to koshinage, a few non-standard techniques like udemaki otoshi, and sometimes osae waza versions of techniques like kotegaeshi.

For nage waza, a different breakfall which is similar to mae yoko kaiten is preferred. It is the first breakfall demonstrated on Kanai sensei's video, but he doesn't give it a unique name there. This breakfall is the primary one of advanced students in the USAF-E, and it is used by most of the demonstration ukes for Yamada sensei and Kanai sensei.

I suppose you can look at it from either side. Mae yoko kaiten could be considered a soft version of this breakfall, or the breakfall could be considered a hard version of the roll. Either way, it is essentially the same fall. Personally, I tend to look at it from the first perspective since I find that the hard version is more flexible and the best fall for powerful throws. Still, I think that improving my execution of the soft variation would be an asset, particuarly with people who do not throw very hard.

Last edited by G DiPierro : 06-05-2003 at 06:59 AM.
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Old 06-05-2003, 07:24 AM   #57
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When you say flat break fall I think of the one where the body goes very flat relative to the ground. Usually caused by opening the shoulder while turning the head. I'm referring to the straight over the top breakfall in which the feet go over the head.

I'm still working on the timing-I know I'm doing something wrong still (kills the mid back when done wrong) but I've seen this done so nicely that it makes me wonder why I have been abusing my body with the hard slap falls all these years.
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Old 06-05-2003, 07:29 AM   #58
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Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
Curious about this - how much choice does uke have for the way he is thrown. I keep getting the feeling that much of the speciallized ukemi requires a bit of anticiptation of technique.
A good uke, with a good nage, should not choose the type of fall but should let nage's technique determine the ukemi. I use several different styles of ukemi and I normally do not antipicate the technique but rather select my ukemi depending on how I am thrown. Even with the same partner and the same technique, I will often switch between several different kinds of falls as the nage's execution subtly changes.

In order to learn a new style of ukemi, anticipation of the technique is required. I think this is true not only of ukemi but also of other aspects of aikido. Once you have learned a new kind of fall, though, you will able to sense when it is appropriate to use simply based on your body's position and velocity.

Finally, it is not uncommon for an experienced uke to make subtle adjustements to ukemi in order to conciously choose to take a specific form of ukemi. With inexperienced nages, this is actually a necessary part of helping your partner to learn the technique. With experienced nages, these adjustments are felt as resistance and are generally not a good thing, though they are part of the non-verbal negotiation of a mutually acceptable level of practice. Very experienced nages will simply work around your adjustments and throw you the way they want to anyway.
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Old 06-05-2003, 07:54 AM   #59
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Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
When you say flat break fall I think of the one where the body goes very flat relative to the ground. Usually caused by opening the shoulder while turning the head. I'm referring to the straight over the top breakfall in which the feet go over the head.
By flat break fall, I mean the judo breakfall where you slap with your hand, extend your leading leg, stomp your trailing leg, and arch your back. This is a high-impact fall which is why we generally only use it for techniques in which uke is thrown straight down.

For forward projection techniques, we use another breakfall that looks something like mae yoko kaiten. The front hand slaps, but body remains bent at the hips rather than straight. The uke continues to roll over, slapping the extended leading the leg against the mat and then sitting up into the same finishing position as mae yoko kaiten as the extended trailing leg hits the mat.

The legs do go over the head in this fall, but in perfect execution the uke's torso is usually parrallel to the ground and perpendicular to the direction of the throw. The legs remain extended and rotate in a circle parallel to the direction of the throw and perpendicular the ground. In a good throw, the uke's extended legs will pass within a few feet of nage's head. Incidentally, it is the high rotational interia created by the uke's extended legs which allow nage to deliver a large amount of power into the throw without hurting uke.
Quote:
I'm still working on the timing-I know I'm doing something wrong still (kills the mid back when done wrong) but I've seen this done so nicely that it makes me wonder why I have been abusing my body with the hard slap falls all these years.
If you are doing a flat judo breakfall for forward projection throws, then you are definately abusing your body since you are absorbing the power of both the forward and downward motions through impact of your entire body on the mat. If you are doing the side breakfall, there is still a significant impact, but when correctly executed this is a relatively painless fall, even for hard throws. This ukemi dissipates most of the forward motion through rotation and slapping of extermities rather than through direct impact of your entire body on the mat.
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Old 06-05-2003, 09:55 AM   #60
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Hi Giancarlo,
Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro (G DiPierro) wrote:
OK, now I see where the confusion started. You and John are discussing a different fall than Ken Sparrow and the others. You seem to be referring to a soft version of the flat judo-style breakfall.
I read the judo-style breakfall description that you wrote in a subsequent post and have to say that what John and I are discussing, at least, is a bit different. I do know the judo-style breakfall and teach it on occasion, although it's not my "native" breakfall.

However, you do mention the style of ukemi that folks under Kanai sensei does. Having seen the type of ukemi done by Kanai sensei's students, I have to say that what John and I are talking about is very similar -- the "back" arm (eg the one not behing kotegaeshi'ed) leads ahead of the body to touch the ground first. This leading arm and that side of the body "absorbs" the impact of the rest of the body rather than slapping. I think that's about the only "basic" difference that I see in these two falls.
Quote:
I suppose you can look at it from either side. Mae yoko kaiten could be considered a soft version of this breakfall, or the breakfall could be considered a hard version of the roll. Either way, it is essentially the same fall.
Yup -- sounds about right.
Quote:
Personally, I tend to look at it from the first perspective since I find that the hard version is more flexible and the best fall for powerful throws. Still, I think that improving my execution of the soft variation would be an asset, particuarly with people who do not throw very hard.
I usually just revert to the "regular" slapping breakfall when I'm thrown hard by, say, my teacher. But, the soft breakfall is nice when I can do it as it does provide for a different way to receive the fall rather than the "wham bam" way. Also, it stings a lot less when done on a hardwood floor...

Also, personally, I don't really like the yoko kaiten thing. Takes up too much space and puts uke's back towards nage. Could be just my preference, though.

-- Jun

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Old 06-05-2003, 12:06 PM   #61
kensparrow
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Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro (G DiPierro) wrote:
OK, now I see where the confusion started. You and John are discussing a different fall than Ken Sparrow and the others.
Actually, I was talking about breakfalls the way Jun describes them. As far as I'm concerned, if I can get the hand or arm being "kotokeish'ed" to touch the mat at any point then I did a roll and not a breakfall.

The ukemi I saw that prompted me to start this thread was definitely a "slap hand contact only" type, not a "high roll" type although it definitely had the flavor of a Waite style roll.

By the way, I just want to thank everyone for all this great information. I've been dieing to try it out but unfortunately I injured my back (not aikido related) and have to go easy for a while. As soon as I get healthy though, I plan to start experimenting with "pseudopod arm" .
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Old 06-05-2003, 02:08 PM   #62
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Quote:
Jun Akiyama (akiy) wrote:
However, you do mention the style of ukemi that folks under Kanai sensei does. Having seen the type of ukemi done by Kanai sensei's students, I have to say that what John and I are talking about is very similar -- the "back" arm (eg the one not behing kotegaeshi'ed) leads ahead of the body to touch the ground first. This leading arm and that side of the body "absorbs" the impact of the rest of the body rather than slapping. I think that's about the only "basic" difference that I see in these two falls.
Jun, after reading your post and Ken's most recent one, it seems to me like we are all talking about the same thing. What you described sounds just like the soft breakfall ukemi as done by some of the people from New York, Philadelpha, and other USAF-E dojos.

When I watched Donovan Waite's ukemi videos, the technique he called mae yoko kaiten looked like the same fall to me. I'm not sure what differences you see between the two.
Quote:
Also, personally, I don't really like the yoko kaiten thing. Takes up too much space and puts uke's back towards nage.
Both of these are true of the ukemi used by Kanai sensei's students as well. However, we immediately stand up from the seated position and turn around to face nage. I use my own momentum to continue rolling out of the ukemi and up into a standing position.

Perhaps the people who use the soft variation are not able to stand up as quickly since they tend to dissapate most of their momentum during the fall, and therefore this may be why they appear to sitting with their backs facing nage. Other than that, the finishing position of both falls is exactly the same.
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Old 06-05-2003, 02:25 PM   #63
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HI Giancarlo,
Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro (G DiPierro) wrote:
When I watched Donovan Waite's ukemi videos, the technique he called mae yoko kaiten looked like the same fall to me. I'm not sure what differences you see between the two.
The main difference that I see is that the mae yoko kaiten ukemi is a roll; the soft breakfall as done by folks as you describe is a highfall/breakfall (ie there's "air" involved).
Quote:
Perhaps the people who use the soft variation are not able to stand up as quickly since they tend to dissapate most of their momentum during the fall, and therefore this may be why they appear to sitting with their backs facing nage. Other than that, the finishing position of both falls is exactly the same.
Perhaps, although I've seen folks who do the soft breakfalls do the yoko kaiten thing and get back in very much in the same manner as shown on the tape. I still think, whether it's from the soft breakfall or the mae yoko kaiten roll, it takes up a lot of room/time as well as exposes the back...

Thanks for your responses,

-- Jun

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Old 09-17-2003, 02:58 PM   #64
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Hello,

Very interesting thread!

I've just found a clip showing a breakfall (it's the topmost left link on this page). I wondered if that was the ukemi you were talking about? Or how does it differ from the one in the clip?

thanks,

Steffen

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Old 09-17-2003, 03:30 PM   #65
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Hi Steffen,

No, I'd say what's in the clip you mentioned seems like just a regular old front breakfall.

If all goes well, I should be getting myself a camcorder soon. I'll see about digitizing a few clips of the soft breakfalls that I know and putting them online. Stay tuned...

-- Jun

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Old 09-17-2003, 04:49 PM   #66
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Way cool, Jun.....waiting with bated breath...heh heh.

Lan

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Old 09-17-2003, 09:31 PM   #67
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I reviewed some tapes from the AAA national instructors seminar and some were doing the soft breakfall. My observation is that it appears to be more of a high fall roll that a flip slap. The hands are stretched out like a windmill and the back hand makes initial contact. I worked on it tonight and it made a difference from what I was doing. Still not soft enough yet but getting there.
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Old 09-17-2003, 10:33 PM   #68
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Hi John,

Your observation is pretty good. I've heard some people refer to the fall as a "folding fan" breakfall since it looks a bit like one of those Japanese fans that folds shut.

In any case, I totally jumped the gun and picked up a camcorder on the way to the dojo today. I haven't played around with it enough to be able to use it much, but I figured (although video taping isn't allowed in the classes) I should have it for the Expo. In any case, I have two weeks to return it if it doesn't work out.

I'll see about putting some kind of clip of a soft breakfall together soon. Maybe I'll add a few exercises I know to help people work on the fall, too. Stay tuned...

-- Jun

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Old 09-19-2003, 09:32 AM   #69
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Quote:
Jun Akiyama (akiy) wrote:
...

I'll see about putting some kind of clip of a soft breakfall together soon. Maybe I'll add a few exercises I know to help people work on the fall, too. Stay tuned...

-- Jun
Look forward to it. This is a consistent question I get from the beginners at the dojo I have teaching responsibilities at. Any visual aids would be most welcomed.

I've been told by my senseis (yes I have two of them) that you have to keep connected to tori to feel his/her energy and to have a "loose tension". I think that means not to be rigid but to remain felxible and adaptive to tori's energy. I'm still trying to nut this one out.

Happy training all

Mayland
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Old 09-19-2003, 11:36 AM   #70
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Quote:
Jun Akiyama (akiy) wrote:
I'll see about putting some kind of clip of a soft breakfall together soon. Maybe I'll add a few exercises I know to help people work on the fall, too. Stay tuned...

-- Jun
Definitely looking forward to it. I've tried the "reaching with the back hand" technique and every once in while it works and I come down (relatively) softly but I'd love to see it done by someone who is actually good at it!
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Old 09-19-2003, 12:32 PM   #71
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I like the fan visual. I used the windmill blades as an explanation. It also looks somewhat like the ginger bread man/person doing a cartwheel. The collapsing fan concept works for me. Using the back arm to perform a controlled collapse is what seems to make it quieter. My feet are still hitting too hard.
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Old 09-20-2003, 10:40 AM   #72
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Hello Jun,

I am definitly looking forward to seeing this clip!

greets

Steffen

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Old 09-21-2003, 10:01 PM   #73
Greg Jennings
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Jun, All:

As uke in iriminage, I've always tried to stay very tight, to circle inside/behind nage, to keep my posture.

As part of this, I was taught to wrap my inside arm underneath nage's armpit and grab his uwagi behind his shoulder.

From this position, iriminage ukemi is often a sort of flat spin break fall. That is, the axis of rotation is more vertical than horizontal.

From that ukemi, I adapted the "feeling hand" ukemi that Jun and others talk about earlier. But, I do it with the *outside* hand. I get my feet up and rotate my trunk away from nage and reach the arm down.

One benefit from this is that if nage breaks his posture to throw me, I can use the connection established by grabbing the uwagi to throw nage.

The arm that I reach under is in a perfect position to attack any number of ways. That or one can move to a side or half mount.

FWIW,

Greg Jennings
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Old 09-23-2003, 03:45 PM   #74
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Just an observation report:

I saw a sandan test yesterday and one of the uke's was a phantom I swear. The only occasional sound he made was his toes tapping the mat at the very end of a fall. He made *every* fall into a roll of some sort, completely silent. I've never seen soft falls done with such regularity, truly impressive. I'll see if this gentleman is practicing tonight, maybe get some pointers.

Best,

Clayton
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Old 09-23-2003, 04:32 PM   #75
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Hey Clayton. How's the dojo search going?
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