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Old 05-19-2003, 09:04 AM   #76
opherdonchin
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
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Quote:
I think many Aikido dojos would never allow anything in the dojo that was not strictly in the Aikido syllabus
While I've never run into a dojo like this, I have run into dojos where the sensei's weren't particularly interested in exploring variations because they found the classical technique sufficiently deep and rich.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 05-19-2003, 09:07 AM   #77
Grappler
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Quote:
Lynn Seiser (SeiserL) wrote:
Jab? I like a direct Irimi-nage or Shayo-undo. Slip, enter, and break balance.

Kneekick? Irimi again, the weight is usually backwards. Or, slip off the line, put your arm under the leg, and Irimi-nage.

Wrestling double-leg takedown? Initially, get off the line and tenkan before the grab. If inside, take the one arm and Kaiten-nage. Another is to break their forward momentum and balance by pushing down on the head.

Until again,

Lynn
Thanks for answering. Did you ever try this in a fight? I've never tried or seen the counters you described in a fight, and I've seen many. Here are the problems I see:

Jab: very fast and light and does not compromise position. It's most often just a setup move to follow up with harder strikes. If you attempt to "slip and enter", you'll walk right into an incoming cross. Remember, he just moved his arm and twisted shoulders and hips, to enter you need to move your entire body. Who is faster?

Out of everything I tried against good strikers, it pretty much boils down to the following options, the rest didnt work:

1) avoid the strikes alltogether (jump back)

2) slug it out (answer strikes with strikes, prepare for punishment here...)

3) CLINCH (you know when boxers miss strikes and end up hugging each other before the ref breaks it up? Thats a clinch). Yes you are likely to get hit on your way to the clinch, the key is not getting hit so hard to get KO'd. Prepare it with fake strikes. Once in the clinch, you are in wrestling territory, there are so many options to take him down - snapdowns, duckunders, ankle picks, knee picks, judo throws (work best if he has a jacket), pulling guard, he'll go down one way or another.

4) TAKEDOWN (aka shooting for the legs). Can (and should) be done after the clinch. But if you feel you'll get owned in the clinch, can be done right away. Set it up with fake strikes first.

moving on....

Double leg takedown: step off the line and push their head down? Sorry that will get you lifted in the air and slammed down. You dont have time to move away, if you did have time to move away, he wouldnt shoot in the first place, unless he is untrained and/or stupid. Watching Olympic wrestling, have you ever seen Kaiten-nage's there in response to takedowns? Why not if they work? It's a perfectly legal move under wrestling rules... ever seen them in UFC, shootfighting or any no-holds-barred tournment? again, its legal... but it doesnt work. Very little works against a well-setup takedown shoot. If you are significantly lighter than your opp, you will go down no matter what you do, so best just to go with the flow, go down, pull guard and start working from the ground. If you have the weight advantage, throw your legs behind you as he shoots in, arch your back and put your torso on his shoulders. Try to get your hips as low as possible. Stack him with the all the weight you can. It's called a sprawl and if you are quick and heavy, it will work. Forget the rest, sprawl is the only counter that always works.
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Old 05-19-2003, 09:23 AM   #78
happysod
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Andrew, still enjoying your posts, but do have a couple of of points on your last one..

1. Response to jab, agree with clinch (I prefer the classier phrase of "closing down"), but have also seen the set-up to this done through "sticky hands" and/or entering rather than jabs - this is much less painful on the guard forearms

2. Your favorite shoot - the only thing I have a problem with is you do actually mention a "well set up shoot". I'd hope I'd be trying to deal with the "set-up" rather than the actual initiation of the technique otherwise I've been too late anyway. Most of the "extended " attacks (a gripe which featured prominently in the early start of this thread with regards aikido attacks) must be dealt with before they're fully complete or you are likely to come a cropper. It's knowing the safe distance that is a pig...

Oh yes, did see a very nice sacrifice throw being used once against a shoot, but yes it was touch and go...
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Old 05-19-2003, 09:25 AM   #79
mike lee
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shoot

In street fighting, people rarely shoot because nobody really wants to end up on the cement or on a grungy bar floor, although that's where things often end up.

The best defense against a shoot is not to let them get your legs in the first place. Wrestlers are taught to extend the legs as far back as possible so the opponent can't get a strong enough hold to complete the throw.

But notice that street-fighters have many more options than do wrestllers in a competition. Strikes to eyes or ears will probably make a shooter want to release theirs hold. Extending the legs back just buys a few seconds of reponse time.
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Old 05-19-2003, 09:33 AM   #80
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Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
Maybe there should be more seminars that focus on things you do not typically learn in the dojo, like ground defense, learning how to strike better, etc. I bet such seminars would have wide attendance with much excitement surrounding them.
A suggestion: SPAR. Just spend 10 minutes at the end of session with some light-contact fighting. Try to take each other down. Throw some light punches/kicks. 10 minutes in a fight with a real, aggressive, thinking, trained opponent are worth more than a week of practicing moves in co-operative mode. You'll see which techniques work and which dont and why. It will be painfully obvious. A fighter who doesnt fight is not a fighter, he thinks he is a fighter until the reality punches him in the face (literally)
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Old 05-19-2003, 10:22 AM   #81
Michael Neal
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Quote:
While I've never run into a dojo like this, I have run into dojos where the sensei's weren't particularly interested in exploring variations because they found the classical technique sufficiently deep and rich.
I can't say that I have been to alot of dojos to know either way, I just get some my impressions from sentiments displayed on these forums. I remember reading someone describe how suwari waza techniques were sufficent to use against wrestlers/grapplers. While suwari waza may help build lower body strength and may help marginally if you already know how to fight on the ground, it surely will not be enough to beat a grappler.

In fact it would be very humurous to watch such a match
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Old 05-19-2003, 11:28 AM   #82
Grappler
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Quote:
Ian Hurst (happysod) wrote:
Andrew, still enjoying your posts, but do have a couple of of points on your last one..

1. Response to jab, agree with clinch (I prefer the classier phrase of "closing down"), but have also seen the set-up to this done through "sticky hands" and/or entering rather than jabs - this is much less painful on the guard forearms
Yes, true. There are several ways to "soften" the entrance to the clinch. Something I should train on more, my clinching technique is not that great actually...
Quote:
2. Your favorite shoot - the only thing I have a problem with is you do actually mention a "well set up shoot". I'd hope I'd be trying to deal with the "set-up" rather than the actual initiation of the technique otherwise I've been too late anyway.
Example takedown setup:

1) Clinch. One hand on opponent's neck, one hand controls his elbow. Go for a snapdown - basically step back and pull his neck and arm hard. If you caught him by surprise, he might actually go down - fall on his knees. Not likely, but if he did, great, put your weight on him, and work from there... much more often he'll catch his balance by stepping forward with one leg and pulling his neck up. The moment he does that, shoot in, grab that leg, lift him up, slam. Its important to get the footwork right, when you snapdown, your feet should be ready for the shoot.

2) No Clinch. Get within striking distance and throw a jab or jab-cross combo. Light quick ones, we just want to distract him. He might block it or cop it, or step for a counterstrike, whatever, important thing is he is distracted, shoot in for the legs. Important: dont shoot in unless you are within touching distance - if you extend your arm, will your fingers touch his chest? If not, you are too far.

Takedowns work best from the clinch - there are SOOO many ways to set them up. The no clinch variants are a bit more risky, but still work - some of my training buddies have the sloppiest takedowns I've seen and they still work anyway...
Quote:
Oh yes, did see a very nice sacrifice throw being used once against a shoot, but yes it was touch and go...
Sprawl is not the only counter to takedowns, but its the only option that always works reliably. Many newbies think takedown is a rugby tackle - they charge forward instead of lifting up. Against the "rugby" types throws work well - let them have the leg and grab their waist, as they charge forward lift the knee pull their waist and they'll fly right over your head - but against a proper takedown thats not possible, since you get lifted before you get slammed.
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Old 05-19-2003, 04:06 PM   #83
Mel Barker
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Here we go again learning martial art in a forum. Oops, I forget, you can't really do that.

It seems to me that the lack of understanding of Aikido makes it exceedingly difficult to discuss how it works, Yet people keep trying.

Has anyone ever been able to talk someone into technical mastery of Aikido before? If not, why does everyone seem to keep trying? I'd really like to know!

Mel
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Old 05-19-2003, 10:51 PM   #84
Jesse Lee
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Perhaps just a little more credit is due than that -- nobody here implied that a web forum can replace a training mat.

It's weak to respond to courteous questions from knowledgeable students of other disciplines with, "well if you don't just believe, then there is no hope for you."

That's just fundamentalism.

, can't find m s
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Old 05-20-2003, 02:51 AM   #85
mike lee
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viva la forum!

Quote:
Has anyone ever been able to talk someone into technical mastery of Aikido before? If not, why does everyone seem to keep trying? I'd really like to know!
Talk then practice.
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Old 05-20-2003, 10:02 AM   #86
Dave Miller
 
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The strawman cometh:

It seems that Andrew is making lots of strawman arguments. Someone suggests that such and such technique will work against a takedown and he counters with, "not agains a properly executed takedown". There are two things wrong with that response:
  • First, in a "fight" situation, which is what Andrew seems to be arguing from, techniques are rarely executed properly. Fights are messy, never like in the movies where nice, clean techniques are landed in a neat and tidy fashion.

    Second, there is no such thing as a technique that cannot be countered, despite what Mr. Miogi told Daniel-son . Even in Aikido, if you stick with it long enough, you learn how to counter the techniques you learned as a beginner, then you learn how to counter the counters, etc.
With that in mind, Aikido is a martial arts system, not unlike other systems, that is as good and effective as the practitioner chooses to make it. If one starts out with the notion that Aikido is somehow deficient in certain areas, then they will likely never get past those "deficiencies" because, in their mind, they are inherant and insurmountable.

The other thing to consider, is the difference between a "martial artist" and a "fighter". A fighter trains to fight whereas a martial artist trains so they don't have to fight. If one is interested in fighting, then Aikido is not where they need to be to begin with since Aikido is not about fighting but, rather, is about not fighting.

As the founder said (and I paraphrase), if we master the techniques of Aiki, then no opponent will ever dare challenge us. That is the goal of the martial artist, to train hard with the hope that they will never need to employ their craft in "real life".

DAVE

If you're working too hard, you're doing it wrong.
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Old 05-20-2003, 10:28 AM   #87
Mel Barker
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I think Dave finally got it. Andrew just is doing on this board exactly what he would do with most of the people trying to answer his "courteous questions" on the mat. Keeping them off balance and never letting them complete a technique because he never attacks. Just baits.

Seems to work well!

Mel
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Old 05-20-2003, 12:20 PM   #88
opherdonchin
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Quote:
As the founder said (and I paraphrase), if we master the techniques of Aiki, then no opponent will ever dare challenge us.
That may well be what O'Sensei said. Still, it touches on something I've found myself telling people. In other martial arts, you train with the goal of carrying yourself so that other people would not dare attack you. In Aikido, we hope to carry ourselves so that other people wouldn't bother to attack us. That's not really true of all the Aikidoka that I've met, but it captures something of the spirit for me.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 05-20-2003, 12:40 PM   #89
twilliams423
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Lao Tzu said:

"When you go on the Way, it makes other people unable to wound you no matter how boldly they stab, unable to hit you no matter how skillfully they strike.

Indeed, to be immune to stabbing and striking is still an embarrassment; it is not as good as causing people not to dare to stab you no matter how bold they are, not to dare to strike you no matter how clever they are.

Not daring does not mean there is no such intention, so it is even better to cause people not to have the intent.

Those who have no such intention do not have a mind that loves to help or harm. That is not as good as causinig all the men and women in the world to joyfully wish to love and help you. If you can do that, then you are a sovereign even if you have no land, you are a chief even if you have no office; everyone will wish for your security and welfare.

Therefore courage in daring kills, courage in not daring enlivens."

Tom
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Old 05-20-2003, 01:49 PM   #90
Jesse Lee
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Awesome and timely quote, Tom!

Reminds me of a similar one from O Sensei:

"The only invincible warrior is the one with no enemies."

, can't find m s
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Old 05-21-2003, 08:12 AM   #91
paw
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Quote:
It seems that Andrew is making lots of strawman arguments.
I don't see it that way. I think Andrew's point simply isn't being understood. If I may try and re-frame it (and my apologies to Andrew if I've misunderstood his point):

First:

I'm sure we've all seen people throwing backfists from deep horse stances.

Fact:

There's a lot of money in boxing. I'm using the term "boxing" generically to refer to western boxing, thai boxing (muay thai), savate (le boxe france) and kickboxing.

Now, this money is usually available to only the cream of the crop, those few men and women that hold the most prestigious titles, but there nevertheless.

Fact:

We don't see backfists and horse stances in boxing.

There's nothing in the rules to prohibit their use. And in an environment where only the very best reap huge financial rewards, it's logical to assume that fighters, trainers and coaches would look for every possible advantage. And yet... no horse stances, no backfists.

To me, it's reasonable to conclude that given different environments if there are no horse stances and no backfists, they are not high-percentage techniques (not techniques that will consistantly work against skilled, athletic resistance). Given limited training time, it would be reasonable to focus effort elsewhere.

As I understand Andrew, he is asserting that folkstyle wrestlers (particularly in the current Title IX environment) and freestyle wrestlers have every incentive to use techniques that are easy to learn, easy to use, have diverse applications and are effective. Given a particular technique, if we do not see the technique commonly used (especially at higher skill levels) we may assume it is because it: isn't easy to learn or isn't easy to use, or doesn't have diverse applications or isn't effective or some combination of those reasons.

As I said previously, I don't think this is a strawman argument. You may not agree with it, but I think it's a reasonable assertion to make.

Carry on the debate lads!

Regards,

Paul
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Old 05-21-2003, 09:40 AM   #92
Dave Miller
 
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At the risk of seeming nitpicky:

Quote:
paul watt (paw) wrote:
We don't see backfists and horse stances in boxing.

There's nothing in the rules to prohibit their use.
Actually, the rules of boxing specifically prohibit backfists, also called "rabbit punches".

The point that I was making is simply that Andrew suggests something, like a double-leg takedown, as a technique that Aikido is ill-equipped to handle. Another person suggests an Aikido technique that will handle it. Andrew counters with the, "it won't work against a properly executed takedown" argument. Thus enters the "strawman" portion, since "properly executed" techniques rarely exist in the "fight" scenerio from which he makes his arguments.

I am forced to agree with that line of argument that suggests that he has already decided that Aikido is ineffective. This quickly becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and his Aikido becomes ineffective.

Most telling of all, however, is the way he chooses to identify himself as a "fighter" rather than a "martial artist". This suggests to me that Aikido is just simply not the sort of martial art that he would be able to excell at for the reasons I mentioned in my earlier post.

DAVE

If you're working too hard, you're doing it wrong.
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Old 05-21-2003, 10:06 AM   #93
paw
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Quote:
Actually, the rules of boxing specifically prohibit backfists, also called "rabbit punches".
I was using boxing generally... including savate, kickboxing, muay thai as well as western boxing. If all of those arts prohibit backfists, I'd be pretty shocked. Still, I think you get the gist of the reasoning.
Quote:
The point that I was making is simply that Andrew suggests something, like a double-leg takedown, as a technique that Aikido is ill-equipped to handle. Another person suggests an Aikido technique that will handle it. Andrew counters with the, "it won't work against a properly executed takedown" argument.
Which I don't think is a strawman argument. I think you're misreading "properly executed" to mean "picture perfect form like I would find in an instructional book or video". I suspect Andrew is using "properly executed" to mean, "performed by someone of reasonable skill".

By way of example, I attended an aikido seminar and learned all manner of kick defenses. Next day, back in the dojo, I couldn't get any of them to work against a nationally ranked TKD'er. Why? Well part of it was the techniques were new to me. But the major reason is none of the aikidoka at this seminar could kick worth beans.

In summary, I'm not saying who's right or who's wrong. (Frankly, no one has made any statments that are going to get me to alter my training). I think I understand Andrew's point and I think that point has been misunderstood.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 05-21-2003, 10:16 AM   #94
Dave Miller
 
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Quote:
paul watt (paw) wrote:
By way of example, I attended an aikido seminar and learned all manner of kick defenses. Next day, back in the dojo, I couldn't get any of them to work against a nationally ranked TKD'er. Why? Well part of it was the techniques were new to me. But the major reason is none of the aikidoka at this seminar could kick worth beans.
I see what you're saying Paul and it certainly makes sense. The only point I would make is that it's extremely doubtful that you would ever have occassion to use your Aikido in a "real world" situation against a nationally recognized TKD'er since guys like that don't go around picking fights. Hence, the strawman.

As for the boxing, yes, I did interperate your statement too narrowly, thinking only of the Marquis of Queensbury Rules. Sorry.


DAVE

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Old 05-21-2003, 10:19 AM   #95
acot
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If someone has time to circle around and jab at me it really means a failure some where on my part to have not gotten in to such a conflict. Most assults I have seen or been in have be with intention and with a 100% commitment to the attack. Boxing is a sport.

Ryan
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Old 05-21-2003, 10:25 AM   #96
Jeff R.
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Quote:
Andrew Jones (Grappler) wrote:
Thanks for answering. Did you ever try this in a fight?
Yes. Many times, and it works very well. In fact, there are several entrances and effective takedowns that revolve around jabs, uppercuts, and crosses and are based solely on the principles of Aikido.

Quote:
Jab: very fast and light and does not compromise position.
Not true. The cool thing about a jab, if done correctly, is that it compromises the center just enough to give you an edge. If done incorrectly, even better.
Quote:
It's most often just a setup move to follow up with harder strikes. If you attempt to "slip and enter", you'll walk right into an incoming cross. Remember, he just moved his arm and twisted shoulders and hips, to enter you need to move your entire body. Who is faster?
Doesn't matter. The blending is what's important.
Quote:
Out of everything I tried against good strikers, it pretty much boils down to the following options, the rest didnt work:
Really? I can't imagine why. Oh, maybe your signature line has something to do with it?

Exercise and extend your Ki with conviction; feel its awesome power--just smile.
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Old 05-21-2003, 10:58 AM   #97
Luke Derham
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ok.

just reading certain peoples entries on this forum, and well, there seems to be a lot of nieve aikidoists...whether attacks in aikido are appropriate, does aikido even work etc etc.

1. aikido does work. If one is doing aikido, he is one with the universe, and the universe cannot be defeated. Think this is too airy fairy for you? go do taikwando. or karate. think theres something more going on here than just strenth and punching and kicking? read on...

If i can just bring to your attention

- O sensei is called "O sensei" because their is no greater words we have in our vocuabulary that could give this man greater credit and respect. He isnt Morihei Sensei or Ueshiba sensei, he is O sensei.

This is a man who dedicated his life to martial arts. He achieved something like 5 or 6 high ranking black belts in varying martial arts, which is an inconceivable achievement for any normal person. And, even at the end of this achievement, he still found himself asking questions.

Then this great man developed aikido. So for people stuck on the "are these attacks really effective" or "does aikido really work" plane, think for a moment about the man who forged aikido. i think you'll find the answers to your questions there.

Secondly, after dedicating a lifetime to martial arts, O sensei found a major part of the answer was to love. Love is a critical part of aikido, as it creates harmony. Ki also helps, just nobody knows how. But its part of the title of this thing we train in, so its probably important too!!

The answers are all infront of you.

I feel alot of questions develop out of fear. Will this work in a fighting situation, etc. Can i get beaten up by a good boxer? Thing is, most of us will never encounter such a situation in our lifetimes. And if you do, you can always talk your way out, which is still using aikido. So if your doing this to fight, youve got on the wrong boat. we don't even want you on our team.

O sensei is a legend, without a doubt. Love freely and Put your trust in him. And then all you have to do is Let go.

As soon as you think about it as fighting, youve already lost.

Luke D
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Old 05-21-2003, 11:12 AM   #98
Jeff R.
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Quote:
luke derham (Luke Derham) wrote:
ok.

just reading certain peoples entries on this forum, and well, there seems to be a lot of nieve aikidoists...whether attacks in aikido are appropriate, does aikido even work etc etc.
Thank you SO much for writing your post!

I am totally with you;

but,

There are several reasons, it seems, that there are so many concerns as to the effectiveness of Aikido.

1. It came from a system of attacks that are very different in nature from the attacks that we would see in a "street" setting, so we wonder about the efficacy, as many seem not to train much with "street" attack scenarios.

2. We are a society of instant gratification and disposability. If we don't see or get what we think we should be getting, we begin to attack the integrity of that thing. Further, if we are not sufficiently satisfied, we have the "luxury" of throwing it out and finding something different.

3. As well, it DOES take being able to grasp the concepts of embodying the Universe at the same instant that we are one point within the Universe, expressing unconditional love, removing the burdening concept of "self," and just plain being able to blend with the attacker's motions, regardless of the attack being used. When we find that it takes years and years to master this art, it seems much easier to slip into the more base skills that depend on strength and fighting back until there is a "victor."

Aikido is definitely totally effective, and it is common for the younger folks to question and test it severely. But those who don't find the true application tend to be the ones who haven't given total committment to living this Way.

We'll all get there if we can help one another and have faith in experience.

Exercise and extend your Ki with conviction; feel its awesome power--just smile.
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Old 05-21-2003, 11:36 AM   #99
akiy
 
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Quote:
Jeff Rychwa (Jeff R.) wrote:
Yes. Many times, and it works very well. In fact, there are several entrances and effective takedowns that revolve around jabs, uppercuts, and crosses and are based solely on the principles of Aikido.
Yoshio Kuroiwa sensei (who trained with the founder) uses a lot of boxing "techniques" in his aikido.

Lots of posts in the following thread entitled, "Defending against a Boxer":

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...?threadid=1452

-- Jun

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Old 05-22-2003, 01:08 PM   #100
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Quote:
Jaime McGrath wrote:
When you are not in the ring there are so many variables one must be aware of. Personally I could see the Irimi-nage (and have trained it at full speed) not from the jab but from the right cross. Jab comes in knocked down ala boxing style move in to the side when that right cross comes in... I have worked this with headgear and NHB gloves with succsess (sometimes more succesfull than others as I have taken a few..)
A cross is more committed and unbalancing, so... maybe. Would work best on drunken bar brawlers whose only move is a right cross and they like taking a big swing... but I'll never try it in a ring
Quote:
2. I used to play ice hockey and yes this method works... always grab the collar lift your elbow to lessen the effectiveness of your opponents strike. Work to pull his shirt over his head then hit em with uppercuts.....
Yes very effective when he has a big and loose fitting shirt, like a sweater. Not so effective with t-shirts.
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Also as he shoots in you could kick/knee him (ok a little un-aiki to some but it works) even an untrained kicker will make a grappler think twice if he think a kick maybe coming.
Thats what I thought originally, I found out its harder than it looks. Its hard to land a KO knee on a fast moving target. It happens, but not that often. In NHB matches, for every spectacular knee KO, you'll find 20-30 successful takedowns. And the more careful grapplers shoot in with forearm protecting the head (I dont but I should).
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And a sprawl is not the end all be all for anything. When somebody sprawls on me I usually try to hook the leg and go around or go low move in and grab the knee and turn him.
Yes, if you managed to pull in the leg, control his side with your head and use legpower to turn him completing takedown.

If his sprawl was really early, you can quickly rise and clinch, sinking in both underhooks and then work from there...

There are other options, even when you really stuffed up and have his weight on you and cant have the leg, you can still wiggle out... I wasnt saying sprawl is the end of the game, but it is the most reliable counter to takedowns IMHO.
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Now here is were reality leaves the ring.... If I ended up in a situation like in the reality of life I may go for the fingers, or the huevos.
Oooh, I hear that argument all the time... if you take me to the ground, I'll just grab your balls... if you armbar me, I'll just bite your leg... if you sink in the armlock I'll stick a finger in your eye...

while they are unpleasant threats, they arent nuclear weapons... fingers? I've dislocated so many fingers I look like a judoka now it doesnt stop the fight and doesnt even slow it down. Broken wrists, elbows are a different story, but I've seen people with dislocated elbows and shoulders who just popped them back in and kept fighting... a public example is the recent UFC 42 (Crunkilton-Franca). Balls? Its not that easy to get them, and if you are successful, its painful but tolerable and will make your opponent VERY angry, which could well result in serious injury or death for you. Remember UFC 1? The groin hits were allowed in that tournament, and it didnt make much difference.

The biggest mistake lovers of dirty tricks make is they use them in desperate situations. Like when they are mounted and being pounded, they think the solution is going for the balls and for the eyes... they'll try and fail, and REMAIN in their inferior position. Problem is the guy in the superior position can do all the dirty tricks as well, but much more effectively, since he is in the dominant position. When you are in an inferior position, you have only one priority in your life and thats position reversal. But since you train with Royler, I am sure you already know all this
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While the ground techniques of BJJ are wonderful it may or may not apply outside the dojo. One on one probably, more than one? Get a gun. One on one, what if he has a knife, Gun or friends? changes the whole outlook does it not? Try this at your next grappling class, put a knife in his hand, put a knife in both your hands, the dynamic is completley changed is it not?
That wouldnt be a grappling class, thats a fencing class and I'll leave the knife and gun battles with multiple opponents for the "martial artist" types. I am a fighter, but not a suicidal one

Last edited by Grappler : 05-22-2003 at 01:12 PM.
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