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Old 05-13-2003, 08:30 AM   #51
Jeff R.
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Quote:
Andrew Jones (Grappler) wrote:
When I see an aikidoka surviving in a ring with a decent kickboxer, I'll believe in it. I am not saying winning, just survive for 5 minutes without getting knocked out. If I see him in a ring with a decent wrestler, I would be equally impressed. So far I havent seen anything in Aikido that would help you against a very basic boxing jab, a basic kickboxing kneekick or a basic wrestling double-leg takedown...
SEEN it? I DO it.

It's funny because my brother and I were JUST talking about how easy it has been to drop kickboxers with Aikido.

But in a way, you're correct. Just as in any martial art, a "non-decent" practitioner may offer a poor display of what the martial art can really be like.

Anyway, PeterR is totally correct. But if you're looking to kick ass as a fighter and not train as a martial artist, you might just as well buy a baseball bat.

I feel badly that you don't believe in Aikido, for your sake. It's a very cool discipline--extremely effective. But it's hard to believe in things if you already have presuppositions.

Sorry, bud. This is one of those times that I wish we could get together.

And if you honestly believe that Aikido is not for you right now--don't do it.

Tough guys--"fighters"--don't really make good Aikidoka. They make good Ukes.

Exercise and extend your Ki with conviction; feel its awesome power--just smile.
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Old 05-13-2003, 11:02 AM   #52
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Quote:
Andrew Jones (Grappler) wrote:
So far I havent seen anything in Aikido that would help you against a very basic boxing jab, a basic kickboxing kneekick or a basic wrestling double-leg takedown...
How long have you been training in aikido, Andrew? Maybe you could drop us an introduction in the Introductions forum?

And, yes, I've seen aikido shihan teaching and dealing with all of the above kinds of attacks...

-- Jun

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Old 05-14-2003, 01:17 AM   #53
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I've trained in Aikido for about a year. That was 5 years ago. I've cross-trained in kickboxing and wrestling (BJJ and olympic) since then. I sparred with Aikidokas, not beginners, brown and black belts, and find they have good balance on their feet, knowledge of wrist and armlocks, but very confused ideas about striking and ground wrestling. Easy to take down and easy to control once they are down. This one nabs them every time - http://www.lesgutches.com/real/swing_small.rm (the guy in the demo does it 3 times slower than real life for instructional purposes). And once they are down on their back very poor defense against elbows and knees and no idea how to reverse position. Correct me if I am wrong but typical attacks Aikido trains you against are single, strongly committed swings that you can see coming from a mile away. No one fights like this. A good striker sets up his attack with fake strikes and when a real strike comes it's FAST and is followed up by fast strikes combo. And keep themselves well balanced while doing that. Watch this and tell me which Aikido techniques you would use against a guy who strikes this fast : http://207.44.200.49/highlights/03-VitorBelfortLQ.zip. And he is a heavyweight, lightweights strike twice faster.

Also Aikido techniques seem to make a clear distinction who is giving and who is recieving... the uke and nage... thats another thing that stuffs up the aikidokas, they are used to one-way action. Fighting reality is, half the time your technique screws up and you end with your back or side on the floor, with your opp sitting on you and pounding your face with elbows. And you have to practice how to get out. Do you? I know you dont cause the aikidokas I've sparred with fall apart when they are down on their back...

I might sound aggressive, but I am openminded, show me a video clip of an aikidoka in a ring with a good striker or wrestler and that could solve a lot of questions...
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Old 05-14-2003, 04:21 AM   #54
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Andrew, I agree with some of your comments in that both dealing with jabs and ground work are often one of the weak areas in aikido, but that's mainly due to the normal route of how and when things are taught. Yes, we start off with uke-nage and committed attacks, but that's only the start. Our green belt tests include starting from a head down + knee strikes to face position, go do a tenchinage, other areas cover 50-50 situations (the mucked-up grappling you're mentioning) and also the "you're in a really bad position now -- do something". Our main aim is to teach a mind-set (poor word-choice, apologies) within a situation, the actual technique you use is dependant on the situation. In the situation you mentioned (pummelled on floor) you'd gently try and remove their eye while closing them down, with love in your heart you'd see what extraneous bits came loose in your hand while remembering to keep centred. What I think you're railing against is that aikido is not always solely about combat? Good, I'm glad you found that as that would bore the pants off me personally. Hope you've found something you prefer for now and when the body stops healing quite so quickly, hope to see you in the dojo sometime...
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Old 05-14-2003, 05:58 AM   #55
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Quote:
Ian Hurst (happysod) wrote:
In the situation you mentioned (pummelled on floor) you'd gently try and remove their eye while closing them down, with love in your heart you'd see what extraneous bits came loose in your hand while remembering to keep centred.
Gently try and remove their eye? Not sure I understood you, are you saying the recommended Aikido technique for escaping front mount is to stick a finger in the guy's eye socket?? I hope you never try it against a grappler, it would earn you a broken elbow in best case scenario... here is a good relevant video clip http://www.bullshido.tv/dl_goto.asp?id=64
Quote:
Hope you've found something you prefer for now and when the body stops healing quite so quickly, hope to see you in the dojo sometime...
ok, thats a good point, I do get injured a lot, broken fingers, toes, strained elbows, ankles, shoulders. Bruises... no serious injuries though. How would you comment on this: http://indomaresa.tripod.com/Injuries.gif -- a list of students who DIED during aikido practice
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Old 05-14-2003, 06:44 AM   #56
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Why do I always get dragged out?

Person with little or no exposure to Aikido enters board to tell us we are all wusses and that he - has all the answers. They ususally have very restrictive views about what is or isn't Aikido.

Only once did someone try to do this physically to me - usually they hide behind keyboards. In this case it was a grab and sucker punch and the response was not pretty - but it was Aikido. Strangely it didn't convince the man - he claimed I wasn't fair because I didn't use, wait for it, Aikido.

Current world champion in Shodokan Aikido is an accomplished shoot fighter - just got back from Brazil training with the big boys. I don't see him packing in Aikido.

I cross train Judo, got my Shodan basically because of ground work, but I tell you push comes to shove my strategy will be very heavy towards Aikido. Why? Because it's ma ai is far less restrictive as long as you don't try to play the other man's game.

No I don't train to fight - did that (full contact Japanese boxing) when I was younger. However, what worked then is still part of Aikido. I just diodn't know it at the time.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-14-2003, 06:51 AM   #57
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Hi Andrew, nope, not saying I'd try and remove an eye with a grappler, but if someone was hitting me while I was down, I'd probably be going from the neck/face area (sorry, can't watch the clip for some reason) - this was more of a tongue-in-cheek example of what I see as the major attraction of aikido (many on this forum may disagree with me) dealing with combat in a calm and focussed manner rather than reacting to the agression with more aggression - which actually seems to be the idea behind many of the combat arts at the higher levels, react cold rather than hot?

As regards the deaths - very interesting reading, thanks for this, and reinforces my own belief that you can't emphasise good breakfall practice enough. All the deaths (except #5) seemed to result from bad breakfalls by relatively inexperienced practitioners, mainly at seminars. I'd suggest it said more for greater supervision and control at seminars rather than a blot against aikido techniques.

I'd also be interested in a greater break-down of this report in terms of % deaths per number of practitioners, the general health of the victims involved, any equivalent studies showing the effects of long-term practices of the various combat systems ("sport" boxings problems are quite well known) etc. Sorry, but I deal with stats a lot and the method of collection, the parameters used in defining your study etc. can easily affect the conclusions you draw.

All I can offer is a personal opinion, in that yes, aikido can be dangerous, yes, it can be effective in combat and yes it can be both misused and mistaught. However, I've also found it attracts one of the more varied ranges of practitioners both in body type and personality and has proved to be real source of fun and useful combat training. You've identified areas you don't like and have said you already cross-train - great, most aikido senseis I've known often encourage this, especially if your interest is purely in combat techniques and methods of dealing with different systems. Having said that, I would still recommend aikido to you as another string to your bow, how else (if not scottish) are you going to be able to wear a skirt in public with aplomb?

(Damn, Peter replied first, I'm posting anyway..)
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Old 05-14-2003, 06:59 AM   #58
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Deaths

Quote:
Ian Hurst (happysod) wrote:
As regards the deaths - very interesting reading, thanks for this, and reinforces my own belief that you can't emphasise good breakfall practice enough. All the deaths (except #5) seemed to result from bad breakfalls by relatively inexperienced practitioners, mainly at seminars. I'd suggest it said more for greater supervision and control at seminars rather than a blot against aikido techniques.
The deaths mentioned were almost all in University Club situations in which there was no Shihan level instructor present, not at seminars. Upper classmen were essentially hazing the junior students by imposing very severe training on them. Most of these deaths took place when students had been forced to do 1000 breakfalls in a row from a technique like shihonage. It wasn't that their breakfalls were not good enough, it was that they had systematically been taken to the point where they were too tired to execute the ukemi properly. This has nothing to do with the normal level of risk of injury present in Aikido traiing when it is responsibly conducted.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 05-14-2003, 07:11 AM   #59
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Exactly - Shishida Shihan (Waseda University Professor of Budo History) when I talked to him about his study was very clear about it. I wont mention the person who was nominally in charge of one of the dojos where this happened and I understand from talking to him that he was of the same mind.

The hazing is seen as a way of toughening you up and also getting you past that thinking stage where your body takes over. Problem is when third year students are in charge - they don't have the experience to see when enough is enough. Still I want to interject that the number of deaths is very very small, probably more American kids die from heat exhaustion on the football field.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-14-2003, 07:15 AM   #60
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George, I took the "camp" mentioned to mean seminar, thanks for clearing up my mistake. However, only 2 of the 11 cases actually mention continuous break-fall practice, the third possible (#11) mentions a rest taken between bouts of ukemi, so the "hazing" element(correct term?) wasn't obvious. I was pre-supposing lack of experience based on the ages mentioned, and you're correct to pick me up on that. Totally agree with you that they don't seem representative of "normal" aikido practice.
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Old 05-14-2003, 07:20 AM   #61
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Quote:
Ian Hurst (happysod) wrote:
Totally agree with you that they don't seem representative of "normal" aikido practice.
It's still representative of normal university practice where a good number of people get their first exposure to Aikido in Japan.

There is a place for highly repeditive, do it till you drop, drilling.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-14-2003, 07:32 AM   #62
happysod
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Peter, no argument with you on repetitive drilling, I've said as much on previous threads. However, is the hazing really representative in Japan? I ask this as I've never seen anything similar in an aikido dojo in the UK and that has included several university clubs. If it is such a problem, how do the uni-clubs organisations deal with it, or are they generally independant of other associations?
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Old 05-14-2003, 07:47 AM   #63
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Hazing - rights of passage. Same same.

It usually involves lots of beer and harmless fun. I was hazed in University in Canada, that was pretty disgusting if I remember correctly. I don't think hazing will go away anywhere - just what's allowed and tolerated.
Quote:
Ian Hurst (happysod) wrote:
However, is the hazing really representative in Japan?

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-14-2003, 08:36 AM   #64
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Exclamation Define "beginner":

Quote:
Andrew said: I've trained in Aikido for about a year. That was 5 years ago. I've cross-trained in kickboxing and wrestling (BJJ and olympic) since then. I sparred with Aikidokas, not beginners, brown and black belts...
Not beginners?
  • Brown Belt (3rd-1st kyu) = an aikidoka who thinks they know it all already.

    Shodan = knowing the basics of aikido, now ready to realy learn aikido.
Would anyone agree with this assessment?

The point, Andrew, is that you can always say, "I took so and so aside and whooped them so therefore Aikido sucks". If you wanna really see how good your fighting technique is, try some of that on at least a yondan and then come talk to me.


DAVE

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Old 05-14-2003, 09:02 AM   #65
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Dave,
Quote:
The point, Andrew, is that you can always say, "I took so and so aside and whooped them so therefore Aikido sucks". If you wanna really see how good your fighting technique is, try some of that on at least a yondan and then come talk to me.
In fairness to Andrew, I think length of training time is a reasonable gauge. Not all arts/styles assign rank.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 05-14-2003, 09:41 AM   #66
Jeff R.
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WHAT IS THIS GARBAGE?

If Aikido doesn't "work" for you -- YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG!

I'm sure we all could go back and forth endlessly tauting the efficacy and ineffecacy of one style versus another.

There are reasons why Aikido does not train in ground grappling as BJJ does, for example, but you're not going to get to that point with a year of training. And if it's a problem--take something else.

The principles of standing Aikido, Aikido versus boxers and Muay Thai attacks, and ground tactics are exactly the same. MAKE THEM WORK.

Do some more research and get some life experience before challenging the integrity of people like Ueshiba, Saotome, Saito, and Chiba, to name a few that would adamantly disagree with Aikido's "inefficacy."

Enough tirade.

Reasonably speaking, I started out in the hard styles of martial arts, and I ran the gamut for twenty years. I applied a lot of former techniques and principles to the Aikido, such as ground fighting and relatively centered attacks, i.e., retracted jabs and kicks in order to satiate that "does this stuff really work" phase that we all go through. The applications to full contact fighting were very successful. Then I ended up finding that the principles were in the Aikido all along.

I'm still a baby in the martial arts, so I hold on to the security blanket of the other styles as I progress in the Aikido, but I see it pulling away slowly. Besides, Aikido is very much about strengthening the spirit--a major factor in making the "magic" work; much stronger than muscles and techniques.

But I have to say, I agree with Peter's post #56. Don't talk about it; go do it. If it doesn't work for you; do something else, but don't tell a physicist that math is useless just because you can't figure out the problems.

Exercise and extend your Ki with conviction; feel its awesome power--just smile.
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Old 05-14-2003, 09:49 AM   #67
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Quote:
Andrew Jones (Grappler) wrote:
So far I havent seen anything in Aikido that would help you against a very basic boxing jab, a basic kickboxing kneekick or a basic wrestling double-leg takedown...
Jab? I like a direct Irimi-nage or Shayo-undo. Slip, enter, and break balance.

Kneekick? Irimi again, the weight is usually backwards. Or, slip off the line, put your arm under the leg, and Irimi-nage.

Wrestling double-leg takedown? Initially, get off the line and tenkan before the grab. If inside, take the one arm and Kaiten-nage. Another is to break their forward momentum and balance by pushing down on the head.

Until again,

Lynn

Lynn Seiser PhD
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We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 05-14-2003, 12:36 PM   #68
Jesse Lee
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Lotta hardcore aikidoka getting pretty defensive, here... :P

It might help you folks getting emotional and feeling attacked to remember -- prior to founding aikido, M. Ueshiba was a master of Japanese "battlefield ju-jitsu" (whatever that is, some extra-lethal grappling discipline I guess). I get juice from my BJJ cross-training now, in large part b/c O Sensei's grappling training formed a pillar of his own *personal* aikido.

Also remember that aikido trains for multiple attackers, whereas grapplers can handle one attacker and no more.

Also remember that aikdo trains for weapons, like knives and guns and bats and sticks and even swords. Grapplers do not train for weapons at all, as far as I know.

I read a quote from the awesome Royce Gracie, when asked during an interview, "What response does your art have against multiple attackers?" His answer was, "I hope you can run fast!"

I posted a while ago on this thread, bemoaning the unrealistic attacks we train for most of the time. I think the very articulate arguments put forth by Andrew underscore my point way back, that our core training can benefit from opening up our core curriculum to defending against the shoot, or starting from your back on the ground, etc.

, can't find m s
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Old 05-14-2003, 01:10 PM   #69
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Defensive?

Quote:
Jesse Lee wrote:
Lotta hardcore aikidoka getting pretty defensive, here... :P

It might help you folks getting emotional and feeling attacked to remember -- prior to founding aikido, M. Ueshiba was a master of Japanese "battlefield ju-jitsu" (whatever that is, some extra-lethal grappling discipline I guess). I get juice from my BJJ cross-training now, in large part b/c O Sensei's grappling training formed a pillar of his own *personal* aikido.

Also remember that aikido trains for multiple attackers, whereas grapplers can handle one attacker and no more.

Also remember that Aikido trains for weapons, like knives and guns and bats and sticks and even swords. Grapplers do not train for weapons at all, as far as I know.

I read a quote from the awesome Royce Gracie, when asked during an interview, "What response does your art have against multiple attackers?" His answer was, "I hope you can run fast!"

I posted a while ago on this thread, bemoaning the unrealistic attacks we train for most of the time. I think the very articulate arguments put forth by Andrew underscore my point way back, that our core training can benefit from opening up our core curriculum to defending against the shoot, or starting from your back on the ground, etc.
I don't really see these folks as being "defensive". Andrew says he hasn't seen anything in Aikido that would be useful against BJJ style attacks and these folks are saying that he isn't correct. In fact it looks to me as if a number of people posting on the Aikido side of things have some background in this. I do myself. I've studied a couple styles of tactical ground fighting, am familiar with the BJJ curriculum, have trained with Eric Paulson on a number of occasions etc.

I do not have a problem with the idea that, as martial artists, my students and I benefit from doing some grappling including ground fighting. I do have a problem with those guys who don't understand what is out there who decide their own style is superior to all the others. BJJ people fall in to this trap just like everybody else. I am personal friends with your teacher and I very much respect what he has done with his training. Adding Western style boxing to his Aikido and then following up with years of BJJ training puts him high on the list of people I'd have next to me in a fight. But he isn't alone in having been eclectic in his training and not everybody who has been considers that he needed to do something outside of Aikido to be effective. The Aikido I was taught by Saotome Sensei was very eclectic and was only limited by your own experience.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 05-14-2003, 01:13 PM   #70
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Re: Defensive?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
I don't really see these folks as being "defensive". Andrew says he hasn't seen anything in Aikido that would be useful against BJJ style attacks and these folks are saying that he isn't correct. In fact it looks to me as if a number of people posting on the Aikido side of things have some background in this. I do myself. I've studied a couple styles of tactical ground fighting, am familiar with the BJJ curriculum, have trained with Eric Paulson on a number of occasions etc.

I do not have a problem with the idea that, as martial artists, my students and I benefit from doing some grappling including ground fighting. I do have a problem with those guys who don't understand what is out there who decide their own style is superior to all the others. BJJ people fall in to this trap just like everybody else. I am personal friends with your teacher and I very much respect what he has done with his training. Adding Western style boxing to his Aikido and then following up with years of BJJ training puts him high on the list of people I'd have next to me in a fight. But he isn't alone in having been eclectic in his training and not everybody who has been considers that he needed to do something outside of Aikido to be effective. The Aikido I was taught by Saotome Sensei was very eclectic and was only limited by your own experience. The last guy who shot one me ended up in a guillotine, is that not Aikido? I was where I was taught.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 05-14-2003, 02:02 PM   #71
Jesse Lee
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George,

I think we are both saying that martial arts training should be eclectic. The family of attacks should be eclectic. If Saotome taught you the guillotine in response to a shoot, then there you go, that is all I am saying -- sure that is aikido, and aikido training should incorporate shoot attacks, in fact a whole panoply of realistic attacks, r/t the core six or ten we all know pretty well and train for most of the time.

The main "thread" of this thread is, are the mainstream six to ten aikido attacks eclectic enough; i.e. realistic. IMHO a martially-effective aikido core training regimen should incorporate typical and realistic attacks, like I assume you got in ASU with Saotome and like you apparently offer (judging from your website).

BTW Saotome himself hooked me into aikido forever, at a public demonstration @ U. of MD many years ago.

, can't find m s
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Old 05-14-2003, 02:19 PM   #72
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You know, I have to agree that training against a variety of attacks is fun and it makes me feel more confident when I am able to work out the "bugs" of different situations. Although we typically train with the standard six or ten, we are not tethered to them. But regardless of the attacks, it is also important that we keep in mind how the Aikido works. Rather than concentrating on so many different attacks, we tend to concentrate on how to effectively move the attacker's center. Learning how to find the holes and the leverage, as well as playing with distance and timing, will give the Aikidoka the ability to be flexible and adapt to any kind of attack at all--jabs, shoots, shomen, kicks . . . .

Trying to train against different types of attacks without having a decent, applicable grasp of Aikido concepts, as well as a strong center, can be frustrating. This seems to be why many short-timers find the Aikido "ineffective" for seeking the end without understanding the means.

And as far as purity goes, Aikido is about the resolution of conflict with minimum exertion, minimum harm to all involved, and no escalation. BJJ, Chin Na, Jiujitsu . . . all can be adapted and blended (as others have stated before) with the Aikido. There's definitely nothing wrong with being ecclectic, especially if one can maintain the primary ethic of Ainuke (mutual preservation).

Exercise and extend your Ki with conviction; feel its awesome power--just smile.
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Old 05-19-2003, 01:50 AM   #73
Largo
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Just have a question/ comment. One thing I have heard about strikes from my sensei is that because in the beginning, O-sensei's students were all black belts in various martial arts/ military personell that it was assumed that they knew how to punch, kick, etc, so it wasn't overly emphasized. Has anyone else heard anything along those lines.

Secondly, we spend lots of time (for the last year more than 1/2 of the class) on atemi and combinations. I feel personally that my punching is better now than when I cross-trained muay thai and karate.
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Old 05-19-2003, 02:35 AM   #74
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A good number were but also a good number weren't. One of his jobs was to train up a cadre of Omoto-kyo believers at Ayabe. I have heard similar statements before but I am not too sure about them.

One thing to remember is that Funakoshi (the man who introduced Karate and its Kata to Japan) only arrived in the early 1920s and did not have an initial earth shaking effect on Japanese budo. When a lot of people think atemi they think ala karate when in fact the atemi of native jujutsu systems tends to be integrated into the techniques themselves. You learnt them as you learnt the techniques. Traditionally you were not attacked by an unarmed man (battlefield or otherwise). Unarmed combat happened when you were attacked by an armed opponent or in the process of a fight you lost your weapon. There really was not much of a tradition in Japan of attacking people with your hands and feet.
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Paul Mihalik (Largo) wrote:
Just have a question/ comment. One thing I have heard about strikes from my sensei is that because in the beginning, O-sensei's students were all black belts in various martial arts/ military personell that it was assumed that they knew how to punch, kick, etc, so it wasn't overly emphasized. Has anyone else heard anything along those lines.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-19-2003, 08:17 AM   #75
Michael Neal
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I think maybe shomenuchi and yokomenuchi attacks should not be used so much in demonstrations, these attacks may be fine to training but they do not help further the goal of spreading the practice of Aikido. They just look so fake. Demonstrations should show more of Aikido's capabilities while still doing it in in a safe manner. A skilled striker can give a dedicated attack without too much risk of injury to nage.

Andrew does have a point about Aikido's limitations, you do have to crosstrain some in order to deal with some of the situations he mentions. I think many Aikido dojos would never allow anything in the dojo that was not strictly in the Aikido syllabus and I think that is unfortunate. I am lucky that there is innovation in my dojo and a variety of trained people from various martial arts backgrounds. But if you do not have this then your Aikido experience will be very limited.

Martial arts training should not be limiting.


Maybe there should be more seminars that focus on things you do not typically learn in the dojo, like ground defense, learning how to strike better, etc. I bet such seminars would have wide attendance with much excitement surrounding them.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 05-19-2003 at 08:23 AM.
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