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Old 08-06-2003, 02:08 AM   #1
Mathias
 
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Unhappy Freestyle training problem

Hi!

Yesterday i was at training as usual and we did some "freestyle" training. It was fun and a real learning experience. In one exercise uke put on boxing gloves and was told to really try to hit tori in the face, the attack was gyaku/oi tsuki or a more boxing style hook. What really surprised me was that it was actually easier to do the techniques.

BUT, when we added a jab to the attck it got really hard. I found myself being able to do a irimi movement to avoid the jab. If uke was jabbing with the left hand i did irimi (ura) of the hand and when the right hand punch came i tried to move i the same direction again (omote) i was often caught with the weight on the wrong foot so i could not move!

The only thing i could come up with to solve the problem was to do a technique on the first jab. but it can be hard to take ukes balance because he is not really putting any power into the jab.

Any suggestions on some exercise i could do?

Sorry for the long post...

/ Mathias

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Old 08-06-2003, 03:18 AM   #2
PeterR
 
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Hi Mathias;

Jabs are tough mainly because they are not commited attacks which, as we constantly hear on this list, is what uke should be doing. Doing Aikido where feints are allowed opens up a whole new world.

Two thoughts.

1. You're ma ai is wrong. Move a little further away so that you are out of the range of the jab and uke has to make a commitment to connect.

2. Assuming your ma ai is correct - deal with uke as his hand is retracting. That is what irimi is for.

I can think of a few exercises but generally speaking what you are doing vis a vis the boxing gloves is the best thing. Have fun but take care.

Last edited by PeterR : 08-06-2003 at 03:23 AM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-06-2003, 03:30 AM   #3
kironin
 
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Straight Face Re: Freestyle training problem

What does training as usual mean ?

Does that mean in a dojo with a teacher with experience who can give you some tips when you are having trouble or does that mean putting on gloves in someone's backyard on you own without guidance and just goofing around ?

Don't take this the wrong way. I just wonder when I see this kind of post where the teacher is ?

I could make several suggestions, but for all I know without seeing what you are doing, it could just be a basic like not having a good up-down movement to unbalance the hook or over rotating the hip if you choose to do a pivot with a larger angle. Problems with maai.

as for a jab, a deflection with the mirror hand that gets you forearm inside the V of his arm can work nicely if you follow the withdrawal with you whole body trapping the jab arm with both your hands and continuing the lead of the elbow back behind his hips breaking his balance. If you lead is soft (without tension) and movement unified, an explosive jab/fake can become a pretty spectacular back breakfall.

Lately, I have been experimenting in anticipaion of the Aiki Expo wih some Systema exercises to respond when caught flat footed (for example - bad maai).

The results were interesting.

Craig
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Old 08-06-2003, 04:33 AM   #4
Mathias
 
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Craig: When i say training as usual i mean training in the dojo in a regular class with a teacher. and of course he gave us some tips but i wanted to hear what others maybe with different experience thought.

Peter: 1:i tried to be out of range for the jab, just as my teacher suggested but some of the time my uke just closed in before he made the attack. So i had to choose if i should stand still or begin stepping backwards. I donīt want to step backwards because in my experience ju are in big trouble when you do that.

2: i did that a couple of times, did a technique on the first jab. But as you say: jabs are often without much commitment so it can be hard to take ukes balance without adding muscle. Especially if uke is a lot bigger than you.

Thank you for the replys.

/ Mathias

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Old 08-06-2003, 08:22 AM   #5
thisisnotreal
 
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Craig, Can you please elaborate on the systema - 'flat-footed' drills?

Thanks alot.

Josh
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Old 08-06-2003, 08:38 AM   #6
jxa127
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Just some quick thoughts:

1. As Peter suggests, deal with the arm as it is retracting. One way to do this is to put you hand on the jabbing shoulder and connect with the hand after its strike. You can also pop your attacker in the jaw from this position. Once you're made connection, see what kind of off balancing and technique you can do.

2. Why wait? You know you're being attacked, so why wait for the actual strike? Take the initiative, make uke block your strike, and use the block as the beginning of the technique.

Regards,

-Drew

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-Drew Ames
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Old 08-06-2003, 10:58 AM   #7
Eric Joyce
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Mathias,

Also remember, you don't always have to do a technique either. You can do evasive techniques to tire he/she out. I remember my Sensei telling me not to be so focused on doing the technique. Think of other strategies to lure uke in, then apply whatever.

Eric Joyce
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Old 08-06-2003, 11:02 AM   #8
Chuck Clark
 
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Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
Jabs are tough mainly because they are not commited attacks which, as we constantly hear on this list, is what uke should be doing. Doing Aikido where feints are allowed opens up a whole new world.
Peter,

You've been hanging around with the wrong "jabbers". A good jab is VERY commited. Most people don't understand the principle of a jab and the distance and timing involved. Some people really don't do ANY commited attacks. They offer their arm or whatever in a way that looks like an attack but their intent is not to affect tori's posture, etc.

A commited jab is not that difficult to deal with. Don't forget...it's hooked on at the shoulder and must slow down and stop and then speed up and go back and then stop again. It's predictable and if you work the distance and timing properly it can be neutralized. In order to learn though, you must have uke that can do a comitted jab properly.

Chuck Clark
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www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 08-06-2003, 12:25 PM   #9
kironin
 
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Ki Symbol

Quote:
josh phillipson (thisisnotreal) wrote:
Craig, Can you please elaborate on the systema - 'flat-footed' drills?

Thanks alot.

Josh
Let me think for a few days if I can describe it without butchering the process. I kind of wanted to fly it by the Systema guys at the Expo to see if they had suggestions.

Oh hell, here is a stab at it.

Here is one exercise I adapted for my advanced class last Thursday that could give you an idea. The Systema exercise is to stand square in front of a partner within striking distance. In SLOW motion your partner does a left jab to your head, you bring up your right hand to the outside of his forearm. Crucial part here -- With palm contact you brush his forearm/fist rolling your palm (palm facing away from your face turns 180 to face toward your face) while at the same time turning your head /shoulders to your left looking in the direction the jab is going. His fist should just go past your right cheek with your right hand in between. As he withdraws, you return to your original position but your right hand remains in front of your face. Repeat slowly several times and try the mirror opposite in response to a right jab. When you get a feel for the lead/blending/aiki of it then you can increase the speed slowly. The movement of you hand /body becomes like a spring - bends/turns and snaps back. Stay centered in your movement as speed increases.

The next step is have your partner do a left jab followed immediately by a right jab with power in SLOW motion. We eventually varied the kind of second punch including a hook, it all worked, it justs changes the final throw. Again. respond to the left jab as described above, but when the right fist comes as your are returning to the original position intercept/connect the lower forearm with the back of your right hand and rotate your palm away from your face (vertical axis of rotation is your thumb) as you move with the punch turning you head/shoulders to your right looking over your right shoulder. Repeat slowly making sure your partner doesn't introduce any artificial pauses so that you can get used to the 1-2 timing of a jab-punch. Do it also starting with a right jab. Go very slowly till you get comfortable. Speed up slowly. Get the feel of it down before even thinking about a throw.

Once you are feeling confident about it. Slow down and start to explore what standard aikido you know might work. Once you got some ideas, speed up slowly and see how it feels. Our solutions may not be your solutions.

Since it was an advanced class and everyone was catching on pretty well, we were by the end dealing pretty successfully with random full speed jab-punch combinations starting with either arm and while moving.

I have students with a good amount of experience in the percussive arts (kenpo in one case and for another full-contact karate competition when he was in the Navy Seals for example), so I take the big grins on everyones face at the end of class as evidence of a successful experiment.

Craig

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Old 08-06-2003, 12:43 PM   #10
kironin
 
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Quote:
Mathias Lindqvist (Mathias) wrote:
2: i did that a couple of times, did a technique on the first jab. But as you say: jabs are often without much commitment so it can be hard to take ukes balance without adding muscle. Especially if uke is a lot bigger than you.

Thank you for the replys.

/ Mathias
if the jab is without much commitment treat it like the wet turd it is, soft and smushy, don't touch it and don't respond to it so you can be open to something with real commitment.

Even a quick jab that's loose on the way out and not much from the hips, but is still intended to disrupt your center will have some tension in the arm/shoulder on the withdrawal that can be exploited because he has to deal with the rebound energy to stop from smacking his own body. Anything less is just a wet turd.

Craig
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