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Old 03-23-2003, 05:08 AM   #51
Kelly Allen
Dojo: Friends Dojo
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Re: garble

Quote:
Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote:
sdfs sdflksfi j sdffdf v dfdfdfdsfd sdffkvojdif sdfpfd!!!
Where's my salt? Shake shake shake.
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Old 03-23-2003, 08:05 AM   #52
Qatana
 
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thanks George and Dave for your insights.

Mike, you are so much like me its scary, but i'm trying to do something about that.

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 03-23-2003, 08:50 AM   #53
mike lee
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still haven't killed the demon within

Quote:
Mike, you are so much like me its scary, but i'm trying to do something about that.
Don't be so sure. I walk where angels fear to tread.

The truth of the matter is I may be a bit different in person. In fact, I'm a perfect gentleman. Nevertheless, I still wouldn't put up with George's subtle and sometimes not-so-subtle bullying tactics. As a result of his personal insecurities, he continues to try to throw his weight around, at least figuratively speaking. I've fought people who thought they were bigger than me all my life. No big thing.

The truth always comes out in the end, even through your own verbal slights. If you were truly sincere about changing that nasty behaviour, you'd skip that junk and remain positive. Instead, you just failed another test, as did George with his "punky" comment and his feigned sense of pity.
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Old 03-23-2003, 10:45 AM   #54
aikidoc
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"So, please, folks. When posting here, please keep in mind that the very first rule of the AikiWeb Forums is "Treat your fellow AikiWeb Forums members with respect." If you are unable to do so, please find another venue for your thoughts."

"So St. George who would you like to beat the "punky" out of?" "sdfs sdflksfi j sdffdf v dfdfdfdsfd sdffkvojdif sdfpfd!!!"

Ostensibly, Jun some people just do not get it! We can only hope for that other venue.
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Old 03-23-2003, 10:46 AM   #55
wilmking
Dojo: Yoshinkan (IKA), Sei Shin Kai, University of Alaska Fairbanks
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Oh my....

i just read this thread and if it wouldnt be so sad, i would be laughing hard. insults left and right, different opinions, personalities. then some clear thoughts from experienced members and some inexperienced replies. i am in no way close to a saint, nor very experienced, and i dont want to insult anyone, but people, lean back, relax!

some thoughts from alaska

martin
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Old 03-23-2003, 11:27 AM   #56
mike lee
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over the hill

Quote:
Ostensibly, Jun some people just do not get it! We can only hope for that other venue.
Talk about not getting it.
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Old 03-23-2003, 07:21 PM   #57
Kevin Wilbanks
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I won't comment directly on the mosquito problem in here, but I think Mr. Ledyard's analysis is a little too simplistic in its generalization, and posits an ultimately undesireable ideal.

While much of what is said about instigators and jerks rings true, I am wary about making such sweeping generalizations about the lives and minds of people based upon a few internet events. It seems like taking some fairly plausible insights about psychological dynamics and stretching them way too far in making summary judgements about people. People are complex, and have different facets and personnae in different contexts and simply at different times. People can be occasionally angry, cantankerous, mischevious, or enthusiastic about games that seem cruel to others without being abject losers or simpletons whose character can easily be summed up and dismissed in a few sentences. I think this is a good thing. It makes life interesting, and it makes for good art, literature, movies...

Likewise, I think to posit an ideal state wherein everyone is always magnanimous, considerate, and "postitive" is also naively simplistic. To me, such a utopian condition sounds like a numbingly Huxley-esque hell. Which is more fun to read, Shakespeare or B.F.Skinner? It is the dark side of our nature, our propensity to be carried away by irrational passions, and to make mistakes that makes life interesting. It seems to be a beautiful thing when someone becomes an enlightened, beatific do-gooder, but I think this is usually the end result of a long and messy path, and such transformations come about organically from within - not from aping high-sounding ideals or following rules.

In the context of the internet, I don't think flaming and instigation is really that big of a deal. Although not my principal hobby, I enjoy a little jab and snip here and there myself. I have become infurated by troll-like behavior in the past, but I have never seen this as anything other than my problem for taking it seriously in the first place. Every society has it's scapegoats, jesters, and clowns... they add to the mix. On a forum, so long as they don't come to dominate the discourse in terms of mood or sheer posting volume, I say let them perform their function.

Last edited by Kevin Wilbanks : 03-23-2003 at 07:24 PM.
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Old 03-23-2003, 09:45 PM   #58
George S. Ledyard
 
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Simplistic

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
I won't comment directly on the mosquito problem in here, but I think Mr. Ledyard's analysis is a little too simplistic in its generalization, and posits an ultimately undesireable ideal.

While much of what is said about instigators and jerks rings true, I am wary about making such sweeping generalizations about the lives and minds of people based upon a few internet events. It seems like taking some fairly plausible insights about psychological dynamics and stretching them way too far in making summary judgements about people. People are complex, and have different facets and personnae in different contexts and simply at different times. People can be occasionally angry, cantankerous, mischevious, or enthusiastic about games that seem cruel to others without being abject losers or simpletons whose character can easily be summed up and dismissed in a few sentences. I think this is a good thing. It makes life interesting, and it makes for good art, literature, movies...

Likewise, I think to posit an ideal state wherein everyone is always magnanimous, considerate, and "postitive" is also naively simplistic. To me, such a utopian condition sounds like a numbingly Huxley-esque hell. Which is more fun to read, Shakespeare or B.F.Skinner? It is the dark side of our nature, our propensity to be carried away by irrational passions, and to make mistakes that makes life interesting. It seems to be a beautiful thing when someone becomes an enlightened, beatific do-gooder, but I think this is usually the end result of a long and messy path, and such transformations come about organically from within - not from aping high-sounding ideals or following rules.

In the context of the internet, I don't think flaming and instigation is really that big of a deal. Although not my principal hobby, I enjoy a little jab and snip here and there myself. I have become infurated by troll-like behavior in the past, but I have never seen this as anything other than my problem for taking it seriously in the first place. Every society has it's scapegoats, jesters, and clowns... they add to the mix. On a forum, so long as they don't come to dominate the discourse in terms of mood or sheer posting volume, I say let them perform their function.
I agree. It's really impossible to describe anyone in a couple of paragraphs. It is true that for the vast majority of people we all have our good moments and our bad. My only point, and sweeping generalization it is, is that there are sometimes people who don't seem to have "good moments and bad moments" or at least they don't show them to you. What you get to see seems to be mostly bad moments.

While from the standpoint of Ultimate Truth it is inaccurate to generalize about complex things like people's psychology. But there is the functional side which is that when someone consistently goes out of his way to act in an annoying manner, you naturally begin to generalize and think of them in those terms.

I have had the experience of meeting folks in person and getting to see that they had another side to them and we got along fine. I try not to be attached to my judgments in this area. It's just distracting and somewhat tiring to have to deal with it on a frequent basis.

Perhaps I should simply look at it as just anoher form of training. Learning how to not get "caught" by any of it. I can do it sometimes but at others I blow it big time.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 03-24-2003, 08:48 AM   #59
Kevin Wilbanks
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On a few occasions I've gotten really upset from things said on an internet forum. After exchanging a few blows with them, I fortunately realized that simply walking away was a viable alternative. In practice, this meant letting go of the particular exchange, not feeding the head chatter and just focusing on feeling the emotional component - which usually allows me to move through an emotion fairly quickly. If necessary, I've taken a hiatus from a particular forum, all forums, or any computer except email with real friends for days up to weeks. When I freak out over meaningless bullshit, I take it as a sign it's time to regroup and go focus on what's important for a while.
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Old 03-24-2003, 09:35 AM   #60
John Boswell
 
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Quote:
The truth of the matter is I may be a bit different in person. In fact, I'm a perfect gentleman. Nevertheless, I still wouldn't put up with George's subtle and sometimes not-so-subtle bullying tactics. As a result of his personal insecurities, he continues to try to throw his weight around, at least figuratively speaking. I've fought people who thought they were bigger than me all my life. No big thing.

The truth always comes out in the end, even through your own verbal slights. If you were truly sincere about changing that nasty behaviour, you'd skip that junk and remain positive. Instead, you just failed another test, as did George with his "punky" comment and his feigned sense of pity.
Mike, I really gotta ask:

What purpose does your "debate" on these forums serve? You come here and insult people on a personal and professional basis. You attack their opinions, you attack their "typos" and continue the attack when all point in it is lost. Yet... you go on?

Judging from your comments qouted above, you have no respect for your fellow Aikidoka nor do you seem to believe their opinions or comments mean anything. You'll stand up and scream your ideas and beliefs but the moment someone opposes you, you jump up and shout out even louder.

From you, I see no respect for others. I see no humility, sincerity, understanding. What I DO see is ego and a strong will to be right whether you are or not... you're "right"!!

And now, obviously having taken a side in opposition to yours, I will be made wrong, told how I don't matter, I haven't trained enough or under good enough instructors or whatever it is you'll say... and I'll be made fun of in some way. And with such attack, you will be right again and I will be wrong.

In truth, I really hope you understand some day just what George and others are trying to say. Though they may not always say things with the "grace" you look for, look more at the intention behind it. What was HIS reasoning for saying what he did? What is MY reasoning for this post? THAT is what we're trying to communicate.

If you find yourself on the defense and fighting back, chances are resisting and not blending ?? Sound familiar??

Aikido could really bring an end to this thread. Here's hoping so...

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Old 03-24-2003, 04:57 PM   #61
Kevin Wilbanks
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In my view, the trouble with trolls like Mike is not that they are 'negative', disrespectful, stubborn, or enjoy taking shots at people at all. As I've said, I think those objections are pretty simple-minded. The real trouble is that they do these things without sufficient flair, style, or imagination, and that their attacks do not serve the purpose of presenting interesting perspectives or ideas. In short, it's not offensive; it's boring.

Many of my favorite philosophers and social critics were surly, agressive, and practiced intellectual geurilla warfare - Nietzsche and H.L.Mencken for instance. It can even be done sound bite-style, a la Dorothy Parker. Being rude or violating the sensibilities of one's audience can be a beautiful thing, but it takes a lot more than just a smug attitude and run-of-the-mill petulance.
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Old 03-24-2003, 06:48 PM   #62
Qatana
 
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hmmmm

well this has turned into an interesting discussion. hasn't exactly answered my original question but sure has given me a chance to practice my aikido!

i don't think i gave anybody an argument

i was only "nasty" to the person who was "nasty" to me ( i hope)

i didn't try to get control of the thread back to My subject...

and not to attempt to justify abrasiveness/ rudeness/ malice (in descending order of social acceptibility)- i have a medical condition which affects my behavior. i don't hide behind it and i do everything i Conciously can to rise above my disability. but for some reason, since nobody can See the manifestation of this disability ( ie: wheelchair/ crutches/ cane/ guide dog, etc) it becomes invalidated. i have been invited to leave many groups i have been a member of ( most of which i was invited IN to) because people will not accept behavioral disability as valid. no matter what tangible contribution i have been able to contribute, how i say things is the entire basis of people's judgement of me.

this time its taken me three 1/2 years to attempt to participate in any group activity- so i chose aikido Specifically because it can teach me how Not to alienate people.

somehow i can hear the accusations of "whiner" and "aikido isn't therapy" on their way.

i'm gonna just keep training anyway.

thank you all for this opportunity to practice.

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 03-24-2003, 11:48 PM   #63
DaveForis
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Talk about a funny thread. But a very good opportunity for training, whether one "blows it" or not. It's funny how people set up their own dynamic, isn't it? It'd be too easy and boring to have 200+ posts of "Yeah. I agree with what he/she said. That's right!" Yes. That's right. Aikido is boring.

But the training itself, on the other hand, is exciting. Teaching yourself to not react to an attack or a perceived attack with another attack has got to be one of the hardest damn things to do in this life (we're all too attached to power struggles, I think, even when we try to let go.) Maybe that's why the process of learning that is so enjoyable. And so frustrating.

But all ya can do is try, and that in itself is a pretty big accomplishment. Keep it up Jo, Kevin, John, Mike, George, etc. Good show. Reading this thread is a lot like watching a seminar or a class from the sidelines (and as soon as I step on the metaphorical mat myself, I'm just as likely to flub my metaphorical technique, just like a real class or seminar.) Very educational.

Behind every flaw in technique is a flaw in the mind or spirit
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Old 03-25-2003, 01:27 AM   #64
mike lee
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horse sense

Quote:
In my view, the trouble with trolls like Mike is not that they are 'negative', disrespectful, stubborn, or enjoy taking shots at people at all. As I've said, I think those objections are pretty simple-minded. The real trouble is that they do these things without sufficient flair ...
But for you, name calling is sufficient flair? I've seen stray dogs with more flair than that!
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Old 03-25-2003, 03:46 AM   #65
happysod
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As this topic has only stayed "sorta" on-message, I'd like to ask everyone on this - how do you define a "good" thread.

The reason I ask is that Mike's brand of "abuse as a learning tool" when coupled with the more reasoned (yet still cutting) responses of Kevin et al has made some of the more potentially dry and theoretical threads highly entertaining reading - and thus more educational!

Some of the high passions engendered have also elicited surprising information (I refer here to one of the atemi ones where I found a whole series of high-grade aikidokas happily using nerve punches on a regular basis to knock people out - what spiffing fun eh..). I think every forum needs a balance, I just wish there were a couple more Mike's as balance so our forum's "black sheep" wasn't quite so obvious - unfortunately my own sensitive soul cannot bring itself to join these ranks as you all seem too damn nice most of the time (knew I should have joined a karate forum).
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Old 03-25-2003, 09:13 AM   #66
Qatana
 
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don't worry Ian. eventually i am sure to mouth off about Something .

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 03-25-2003, 10:17 AM   #67
JPT
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When I was younger I too though jokes about disabled people were funny, since then I've spend some time with these people, they have enough to deal without us making them the butt of our jokes. Sorry to be a killjoy Shironage, its nothing personal, but find these type of things offensive. I request that somebody delete it.

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Old 03-25-2003, 01:21 PM   #68
shihonage
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Quote:
Jay Peatee (JPT) wrote:
When I was younger I too though jokes about disabled people were funny, since then I've spend some time with these people, they have enough to deal without us making them the butt of our jokes. Sorry to be a killjoy Shironage, its nothing personal, but find these type of things offensive. I request that somebody delete it.
Empathy is great, but too much empathy will eventually give you a heart attack.

So stop playing holier-than-thou (which you are not), and lighten up once in a while.
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Old 03-25-2003, 01:33 PM   #69
Qatana
 
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i think the thing is:

in the Special Olympics Everybody wins

but somehow i don't think that was your intended message

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 03-25-2003, 01:55 PM   #70
Alfonso
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I've come to believe that Aikido is ultimately unsatisfiying to the macho macho crowd.

Some people just don't feel happy without being able to win win win all the time.

trolling is an interesting concept.

At some point I was tempted to use internet personas as sounding boards, gadflies or some other interesting idea of that sort. Unfortunately for my budding "Demosthenes" I got hooked on sincere discussion. I don't get much out of mock quarelling or even partisan bickering

(like al the political "debate" that's flooding the server..), I mean no one's listening.

Abrasive personalities are a fact of nature. Judgemental personalities are another. I thought that in an Aikido board I would get to see Aikido philosophy expounded.

wrong.. its just people who do Aikido.

Sometimes though good stuff comes out.

Sometimes its all ego (ok most of the time)


Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 03-25-2003, 02:39 PM   #71
Qatana
 
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well people who "do" aikido Are "just people." and instead of talking about it, some of us are trying to "do aikido" right here ,right now.

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 03-25-2003, 04:25 PM   #72
Alfonso
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I have no problem with that at all.

which goes back to the point of what you brought up in this thread.

you were shocked at some attitudes displayed at other members you ID with, well there it is.

At first I thought I'd find enlightened people here.

and then I realized it was only Mike Lee

(just kidding Mr. Lee, I do so enjoy your comments, (whoa spelling errors anywhere?))

I'd settle for people with similar interests, a passion for Aikido for one.

However, I'm left with *just people who do Aikido* of all shapes colors, and opinions, abrasive or not, and some people who want to do Aikido as well, and some who quit Aikido, and some who don't like Aikido , and some who like the board and have nothing to do with Aikido.

shocking really..

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 03-26-2003, 05:13 AM   #73
Kelly Allen
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So on one hand we have our abrasive personalities that as Aikidoka we are supposed to deal with and practice our Aikido on (I have no problem with that). on the other hand we're not allowed to choose to alienate them because their purpose on this forum is to help us train in Aikido on the intellectual mat. With the personalities that are so confrontational how else can one deal with them without being confrontational or percieved as being confrontational short of alienating them.

Aikido, and this forum, have taught me alot of lessons about people, personalities, and me. It has helped me in my work, (dealing with abrasive people in a calm manner). but most importantly dealing with my son who has a bad temper. I understand though that he has a bad temper because I have a bad temper. Where I used to get into a power struggles with him I now ignore the bad behaviour and reward the good, all with a calm demeenor. I find this also works with adults. If a person is disrespectful to me I will ignore them. If the same person becomes more respectful in the way he/she addresses me I will interact.

There has to be consequence to negetivity otherwise the offending person will never make an effort to address people with civility. Consequence being in my mind alienating the offender. The person who chooses to interact with someone who is insulting and abusive only fuels his/her aggersiveness.

That being said I am no saint. I have added fuel to aggersors fire on a couple of occasions. But I am after all still learning.

train well every one.
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Old 03-26-2003, 06:06 AM   #74
JPT
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Possibly I do need to lighten up. Let me try by telling you a few jokes of my own.

O.J. Simpson is reportedly doing a Disney movie its called the Lying Coon.

Early today forensic teams dismissed claims that a charred phallic shape object about 4 inches long, found hanging in a tree in Texas was part of the debris from the recent spaceship disaster. The team from NASA stated that the object was nothing more than a common shuttlecock.

How did the Nazi's persuade the Jews to get on the trains to the concentration camps, with promises of free accommodation, medical, electric & gas services.

From my perspective (British, White, Middle Class) I find these jokes quite funny even though they are what I also consider to be in "bad taste", but then I am far removed from any of these situations. I have no doubt that by posting them I have offended some people in this forum, & to those people I apologies & state that I have only have posted them to illustrate a point .

That point being that bad taste jokes shouldn't be posted in this public forum. Jokes about disabled people are in bad taste, I do not like them because they are cruel & offensive. Again I request that it be removed.

Please don't take this personal Shironage it is not you that I have a problem with (a lot of your other posts make sense to me). Possibly you might feel that I am picking on you, as this is the second encounter that we have had. (With hindsight I'll admit I was probably a bit OTT in the first). However even if O'Sensei himself posted a joke like that I would say the same thing.

"Holier than thou" I am not, but I do have the wisdom & common sense to realise that jokes of bad taste shouldn't be posted in a public forum.

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Old 03-26-2003, 07:04 AM   #75
MikeE
 
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I actually enjoy Mike Lee's rants. It brings some fun stuff and people out of the woodwork.

My instructor always said that everyone needs to have a petty tyrant. The one person who just gets your goat and really illicits homicidal feelings from you. This is the person you should spend a lot of time with. If you can learn to blend with this person...you will have taken a long step down the path.

Congratulations Mike, your someone's tyrant

Mike Ellefson
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