Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Teaching

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-14-2003, 04:34 AM   #1
ian
 
ian's Avatar
Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,654
Offline
teaching self-defence

I personally feel an obligation to teach practical self-defence as soon as possible to the new comers (esp. females). However I'm not sure whether aikido is really structured in this way. For instance, many people who have been training even for several years do not know how to strike effectively and do not know where it would be best to strike. I have even considered running a 'pre-aikido' course, which I believe would also improve people's understanding of the utility of aikido.

I still wonder whether the aikijitsu method of training is superior in that many strikes are incorporated into the techniques initially and these are gradually removed as people improve.

1. should the initial task be to make people capable of defending themselves as quickly as possible?

2. Do you think all your students who have been going for 6 months or more could defend themselves adequately from a concerted attack?

3. Do you think the training method should start with a more aggresive (and dangerous) approach and gradually become more blending as skill develops?

Ian
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2003, 05:31 AM   #2
happysod
Dojo: Kiburn, London, UK
Location: London
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 899
United Kingdom
Offline
Ian, I've only had a few experiences of teaching self-defence as opposed to aikido, so you may want to take my advice with a pinch of salt, but my feelings on the matter are:

1. I agree, if you are teaching self defence, make the techniques easy, short and as brutal as possible so they gain a degree of skill early. Aikdo is more for the long-haul.

2. 6 month student? tricky one as attitude more than technique at this stage is what seems to separate those who'd survive a confrontation than those who wouldn't. Also, we attract the wierdo hippies who often are into aikido for reasons other than any thought of self-defence. I would say even a new student quickly becomes aware of potential options and opportunities available to them.

3. Yep, ignore blending etc. etc. in your self-defence part, these are too complicated to teach in a short space of time (which I believe is the time frame you're concerned with). Perhaps split your beginners time into two sections? Self-defence using aikido and "true aikido" where you can introduce them to the "good stuff". I'd also emphasise the methods used to avoid the confrontation in the first place and how to recognise a real threat rather than bluster etc. (e.g. loss of blood from face means duck, they're going to attack etc.)

Anyway, that's my waffle for the day. Going off your previous posts I'm sure you've already covered most of this ground a long time ago
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2003, 07:10 AM   #3
JJF
 
JJF's Avatar
Dojo: Vestfyn Aikikai Denmark
Location: Vissenbjerg
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 780
Denmark
Offline
Re: teaching self-defence

Quote:
Ian Dodkins (ian) wrote:
1. should the initial task be to make people capable of defending themselves as quickly as possible?
I don't think so. Most people don't come to us for self-defence primarily. Plenty other possible MA's in town to choose from. Many have tried something else and come for a different aspect of MA training. I believe however that it is essential to teach from the beginning that what we do is ABOUT selfdefence.
Quote:
Ian Dodkins (ian) wrote:
2. Do you think all your students who have been going for 6 months or more could defend themselves adequately from a concerted attack?
They way you ask forces me to answer this with a 'No'. We have quite a bit of new people that sort of dabble for a couple of years before they start getting the idea (myself included )
Quote:
Ian Dodkins (ian) wrote:
3. Do you think the training method should start with a more aggresive (and dangerous) approach and gradually become more blending as skill develops? Ian
I don't think so. Of course each student must learn to give a committed attack as early as possible, but if you - as defence - teach the 'easy' solution where each attack is countered by a fast and furious atemi in the face or the groin, then it can be difficult to change the mindset with those students later on so they will make the extra effort to not just protect themselves but also the attacker.

Plenty of MA's start you on the 'Kill or get killed' approach, and eventually students of those MA's can develop a more 'loving' (in lack of a better word) attitude, while they develop the surplus of technical ability needed to protect both parties. However in Aikido (they way I see it) that attitude is an integral part of practice, and one should accept the fact that martial 'proficiency' (again in lack of a better term) will take longer to achieve, while the ability to preserve life instead of destroying it will become within grasp far earlier than if one practices a more agressive MA.

I have no proof for this though - it is merely my current view based on five years of shotokan karate, 2 years of kendo and 5 years of Nishio-inspired Aikikai Aikido.

- Jørgen Jakob Friis

Inspiration - Aspiration - Perspiration
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2003, 07:43 AM   #4
ian
 
ian's Avatar
Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,654
Offline
thanks for the replies. I agree with what you've both said - though for many of my students aikido is there first martial art and many of them do train for self-defence. I do object to the use of martial arts or self-defence for overtly aggressive action, and that is what worries me, however I think what I may do is teach as I have been teaching but draw attention to certain areas which are immediately accesible as self-defence options (e.g. neck strikes, strikes under the chin etc).

Cheers,

Ian

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2003, 07:56 AM   #5
paw
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 768
Offline
Ian (Dodkins),
Quote:
I do object to the use of martial arts or self-defence for overtly aggressive action, and that is what worries me....
Would you mind elaborating on this? What do you mean by "overtly aggressive action"?

Curious,

Paul
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2003, 02:10 PM   #6
Lyle Bogin
Dojo: Shin Budo Kai
Location: Manhattan
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 588
United_States
Offline
I don't think teaching self defense "technique" is as important as utilizing practice methods that develop a certain state of mind. The body already knows how to defend itself. The difficult part is believing that you can and will defend yourself, and defining the conditions under which that state of mind is permitted to flow freely.

"The martial arts progress from the complex to the simple."
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2003, 05:27 PM   #7
Paul Klembeck
Location: silicon valley
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 43
Offline
Programs like model mugging for women or fastdefense for the general population teach more about self defence in a weekend than most aikido dojos do in years (including how to avoid fights!).

I would suggest combining occaisional forays into that approach (see fastdefense.com for details) with normal training between as an effective overall approach. That way students get the psychological skills they need for survival from an intense weekend and the subtler kinder gentler skills during the rest of the year. Being able to handle one's addrenal response and the confidence that one can protect oneself if needed, then permits kinder gentler skills to become more quickly applicable.

Paul Klembeck
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2003, 07:44 PM   #8
SmilingNage
Location: NJ
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 241
United_States
Offline
Thats a hard question to answer. But Aikido is about understanding and options, not revenge and striking back. It is ill suited for people looking for ways to beat up people. The lessons learned in Aikido take years to chew, more years to digest and even more years to manifest themselves into applicable defense. So take small bites and taste the teaching, it makes for better digestion.

The first lesson that should be taught is to change themselves and avoid the areas that lead them into such conflicts. Self awareness and awareness of the surroundings count much more than the learn how to grapple and pummel someone.

ps

You can tell I was hungry while typing this up!

lmao

Dont make me, make you, grab my wrist.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2003, 06:23 AM   #9
DGLinden
Dojo: Shoshin Aikido Dojos
Location: Orlando
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 159
Offline
I have a nice approach to this quandry. I have the guys put on body armor and attack as if they were really trying to hit each other instead of just thrusting a fist forward and leaving it there for nage to do with as he pleases. It allows nage to experience timing and distance in a 'real time' setting without fear of injury. Of course 8 out of 10 times he would have broken ribs because it is very hard to stop someone hiting you at full, repetative, mean and nasty, rage induced attack, mode. But the better students find that patience, courage, and calm leads to fine aikido technique. You can't fake this training if you want your aikido to work.

Of course, many people do aikido for other reasons and that's fine. True full speed and power are damn scary and most never experiece it. At least not on an aikido mat.

Daniel G. Linden
Author of ON MASTERING AIKIDO (c) 2004
Founder Shoshin Aikido Dojos
www.shoshindojo.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2003, 10:13 AM   #10
ian
 
ian's Avatar
Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,654
Offline
I totally agree William, in that aikido is largely about changing yourself. Also, to answer Pauls question on what is 'overtly aggressive' I mean using martial arts unnecesaarily (I don't necessarily think violence is wrong - persecution can take many forms and sometimes violence is effective and is required, however almost always there are better options).

Also interesting points Lyle and Daniel. I know that many people say that complex techniques are too difficult for the body to remember in real situations and that what is needed is simple, effective and natural responses. I think aikido can be on the border of this, in that a techniques can be very quick and automatic if trained correctly.

I've considered the body armour session, but actually from the other side i.e. the attacker wears it - therefore the attacker just goes in for any attack (quite randomly) and the defender can respond; including atemis.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2003, 11:04 AM   #11
paw
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 768
Offline
Ian,
Quote:
Also, to answer Pauls question on what is 'overtly aggressive' I mean using martial arts unnecesaarily <snip>.
I think I understand that. When the only tool someone has is a hammer, they tend to see all problems as nails. If the only tool they have for self-defense are physical techniques, they tend to see the solution to all self-defense situations as physical techniques, when as William and you mentioned, there are other considerations.

Fair statement?

Regards,

Paul
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2003, 11:47 AM   #12
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,268
Offline
Quote:
Daniel Linden (DGLinden) wrote:
I have the guys put on body armor and attack as if they were really trying to hit each other instead of just thrusting a fist forward and leaving it there for nage to do with as he pleases.
Hi, Dan. That sounds very productive. Getting popped a bit, even through armor, still hurts, stuns, and angers. You lose the composure you thought you'd achieved. I was amazed recently using focus mits for the first time, how daunting it is to feel someone's aggression THROUGH MITS, INTO YOUR HANDS. That is, you're not even taking it on the chin and it's still disconcerting!

As a point of interest, Peyton Quinn (http://www.rmcat.com/) doesn't allow joint locks during his training--too dangerous.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Koretoshi Maruyama European Seminar - Maruyama Sensei will be in Cumbria UK, 1st-3rd August, 2014



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Teaching Aikido to Children Workshop wmreed Seminars 2 09-06-2008 04:33 PM
What's your sensei teaching you? Robert Jackson General 29 06-13-2005 07:08 AM
Is aikido suitable for children. big old smiler Teaching 9 01-06-2005 05:00 PM
Teaching, & its impact on me justinm General 16 04-07-2004 07:04 AM
Self defence vs fights Ta Kung General 32 05-21-2003 09:00 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:30 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate