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Old 03-07-2003, 08:09 AM   #1
Kensai
Location: South West UK
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Chain Punching.

I am sure you guys have been asked this a thousand times.

Having only studied Aikido for nearly a year, I am no professional (lol). So I was wondering how Aikido could deal with this.

So for example, a series of quick snappy strikes delivered similar to a Hsing I, Ba Gua or Wing Chun practioner. I only ask because I have resently been reading Park Bok Nams book on Ba gua. And he was talking about very quick strikes. So would the counter be some variation on Tsuki (sp) attack? With lots of blending?

I promise this is not some trolling thread, I am geniunely interested.

Thanks for your time in advance........

"Minimum Effort, Maximum Effciency."
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Old 03-07-2003, 08:14 AM   #2
SeiserL
 
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IMHO, because the straight blast chain punches do not totally over extend or stay out there very long, many of the techniques which focus on taking the wrist or unbalancing forward may not be effective. But, if you step off line and enter with Irimi, it is easy to take the balance backward as the punch retracts.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 03-07-2003, 08:30 AM   #3
Kensai
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Thanks Lynn, but I dont wanna seem like a total novice but....

When someone says Irimi, does that mean a more direct version of Kokyu Nage? I have lots of books on Aikido, but non have really explained it all that well.

"Minimum Effort, Maximum Effciency."
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Old 03-07-2003, 08:55 AM   #4
paw
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I'm not entirely sure what is meant by "chain-punching". Do you mean a series of rapid punches that have the same target or a series of blows that have many different targets (like a boxer's flurry)?

Curious,

Paul
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Old 03-07-2003, 09:10 AM   #5
DaveO
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Paul; I think he means combination punching - a rapid seies of strikes to the same general target.

Chris: Irimi means to 'enter'. It is not a technique in itself, rather a direction of movement. In Irimi, you move in towards your attacker, depending on circumstance. For instance; in what Lynn said; as the punch(es) come in; you step offline - i.e. to the side; out of the direct path of the attack, then step inside the attack - irimi. This would in this case have you closing in to the attacker's elbow; a prime position for technique.

An interesting point - we just held a joint training day between ourselves and the Karate dojo in the same building. most of the Karate guys - and most of us as well - thought the combination attacks that make Karate so effective would overcome the movement of Aikido. we were all shocked - and not a bit pleased - when our Sensei, Jill did almost exactly what Lynn suggested here, with tenkan instead of irimi - she followed the Karate sensei's punch in with Tenkan (moving off-line and turning to the attacker's line) and flipped him to the floor with an almost casual pull on his shoulders. Neat.

Dave

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 03-07-2003, 09:36 AM   #6
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Chain Punching.

Quote:
Chris Gee (Kensai) wrote:
I am sure you guys have been asked this a thousand times.

Having only studied Aikido for nearly a year, I am no professional (lol). So I was wondering how Aikido could deal with this.

So for example, a series of quick snappy strikes delivered similar to a Hsing I, Ba Gua or Wing Chun practioner. I only ask because I have resently been reading Park Bok Nams book on Ba gua. And he was talking about very quick strikes. So would the counter be some variation on Tsuki (sp) attack? With lots of blending?

I promise this is not some trolling thread, I am geniunely interested.

Thanks for your time in advance........
The whole issue of combinations or rapid fire strikes still comes down to the first beat. Katsu Hyabi or "instant victory" (one of many meanings for this concept) is the principle which governs Aikido technique. The ideal is to take the opponent's center at the instant of first contact.

At the Aiki Expo last year many people were fortunate enough to attend classes with Ushiro Sensei in which he talked about and demonstrated the principle of kokyu. His emphasis on this was indentical to the way in which I understand it to be used in Aikido.

He consistently emphasized that with proper use of kokyu, the entry placed one in a position, in one movement, from which no other strike from the opponent was possible. Against an attack from someone trained in styles which utilize techniques such as the straight blast as the Jeet Kun Do fellows call it (chain punching as you have referred to it) the principle is still the same but simply more difficult to achieve.

Many styles will referr to the concept of "confrontational ranges". Usually they are considered to be: kicking, punching, trapping, and grappling. The issue with many kung fu or many other south asian fighting styles is that they primarily focus on battle at the trapping range. Their strong points are to get inside normal kicking and punching range to the trapping range at which they can trap, lock, and deliver very powerful close quarters striking techniques (knees, elbows, head bitts, etc.)

Most Aikido kihon waza are practiced at punching range (some peopole work on kicks as well). The Aikido model has been to resolve the conflict, so to speak, at the point of punching range (our grabbing attacks are essentially at punching range).

Now this doesn't mean that Aikido is ill suited for application against arts that utilize closer ranges. It's simply that it reuires a much greater level of skill in order to get to the post at which the attacker's center can be taken. By utilizing closer range fighting techniques they essntially reduce the size of the "safe place" at the center which Aikido practitioners strive to get to using the principle of "irimi" or entering.

It still comes down to the concept of rhythym. Any martial interaction will have a set of movements which can be described as "beats". A non skilled practitioner might be seen as only using whole notes whereas a very skillfull practitioner might be usuing 32nd notes. None of that matters when you consider that all interactions still must have a "first beat". That is the instant at which O-Sensei said victory takes place. If one can train to the level at which he really understands kokyu, as many of us saw demsontrated so well by Ushiro Sensei, and the concept of irimi, or entering, then confl;ict ends on the first beat of any attack. Considerations of combinations and speed of strikes becomes irrelevant at that point. That is one meaning of the term Katsu Hayabi as I understand it.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 03-07-2003, 10:11 AM   #7
kensparrow
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Re: Re: Chain Punching.

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
At the Aiki Expo last year many people were fortunate enough to attend classes with Ushiro Sensei in which he talked about and demonstrated the principle of kokyu. His emphasis on this was indentical to the way in which I understand it to be used in Aikido.

He consistently emphasized that with proper use of kokyu, the entry placed one in a position, in one movement, from which no other strike from the opponent was possible.
I was fortunate enough to have attended a seminar by Ikeda Sensei last month and he demonstrated much the same thing. At the instant the attack began, he was already inside and it was over. Very impressive to say the least. The key to it seemed to be reading the attackers intentions and moving when he decided to move. When we practiced the technique and I was uke, I found it was extremely disconcerting to have my attack short circuited that way. I would just start to throw a punch and then I'd be admiring the lighting fixtures in the ceiling! It seems to be an extremely effective way to deal with almost any attack if you are good (sensitive?) enough to pull it off.
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Old 03-07-2003, 10:16 AM   #8
DaveO
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....and that's the key; if I may jump in. 'If you're good enough'. So many people like to say 'aikido doesn't work, because you can't do such-and-such', glossing over the fact that it takes practice - lots and lots of lovely practice - to respond instantly in the right way. Just learning a technique is not enough; you must commit it to the subconcious; so you can do it without thinking.

Sorry; this really belongs on a different thread; but I had to seize the moment.

Thanx!

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 03-07-2003, 11:59 AM   #9
George S. Ledyard
 
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Speed

Quote:
Dave Organ (DaveO) wrote:
....and that's the key; if I may jump in. 'If you're good enough'. So many people like to say 'aikido doesn't work, because you can't do such-and-such', glossing over the fact that it takes practice - lots and lots of lovely practice - to respond instantly in the right way. Just learning a technique is not enough; you must commit it to the subconcious; so you can do it without thinking.

Sorry; this really belongs on a different thread; but I had to seize the moment.

Thanx!
What I have been observing recently is that many students can perceive the instant that they need to move, they just can't get there fast enough.

In looking into why this is I found that like most problems in Aikido, the issue is tension. I am a very large guy and yet I can consistently move faster than most of my smaller students. This is not just a conditioning issue as I am anything but in my youthful prime. The laws of physics would indicate that these students should be able to move faster than I do but they can't.

There turned out to be two related factors that I could identify. The first is that most students stand in a nuetral kamai. In other words it isn't as if your car were in nuetral and you wanted to drag race. If you need to take the time to perceive the start, put the car in gear, then accelerate, you will never be fast enough. The car is already in gear and you are burning the clutch, then you simply release the breaks to explode forward. When you stand in kamai the energy of the irimi is aleady there, it is the front leg which holds you back from moving forward. I think this is what O-Sensei meant when he said that when surrounded by enemies he was unconcrened because he was already behind them.

The other issue is what prevents people from executing the above. It is simply tension in the legs. When one is too tight, one set of muscles must first be relaxed before the required set of muscles can activiate. That takes far too much time. If one can relax the legs, drop into ones center and use the muscles of the leg to "store" the energy reuired for the next movement, then it is simply a matter of releasing what is already there. This isn't possible when the legs are tight.

These two issues must both be resolved before one can get the body to move as fast as the preception dictates.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 03-07-2003, 12:06 PM   #10
Kensai
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Thanks for all the suggestions. So the idea would be in line with the priciples of Katsu Hayai, would be to take the first strike and deal with it there and then. Would it be possible to follow the leading attack strait back to the shoulder then do something like a Tenkan Kokyu nage?

Dave I notice you study Ki Aikido? Would this be the Ki Aikido created by Sensei K Williams. Its just that I am lucky enough to be his wife's student and a student under him sometimes.

"Minimum Effort, Maximum Effciency."
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Old 03-07-2003, 12:22 PM   #11
DaveO
Dojo: Great Wave Aikido
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Hi, Chris; I study the Shin-shin Toitsu style of Aikido created by Soshu Koichi Tohei. The style is also called 'Ki Aikido' due to the importance ki plays in the style. It is represented worldwide by the Ki Society.

George: Thank you very much; I have difficulty moving when required as well; your post is a real help.

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 03-07-2003, 12:27 PM   #12
George S. Ledyard
 
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Timing

Quote:
Chris Gee (Kensai) wrote:
Thanks for all the suggestions. So the idea would be in line with the priciples of Katsu Hayai, would be to take the first strike and deal with it there and then. Would it be possible to follow the leading attack strait back to the shoulder then do something like a Tenkan Kokyu nage?

Dave I notice you study Ki Aikido? Would this be the Ki Aikido created by Sensei K Williams. Its just that I am lucky enough to be his wife's student and a student under him sometimes.
The issue of "de-ai" or timing gets really interesting. Some of the practice that I have done emphasized the need to go beyond mere fast reaction to a perceived attack. The idea is to perceive the instant that the attacker makes the DECISION to attack. You can feel this being done when you train with the really great teachers. You have no sooner begun to initiate your attack and you can feelk that they have already moved and that your attack is already nuetralized. When you take ukemi from someone at this level you often feel as if your ability to be a good uke is compromised. You are left with the desire to be able to say "I am sorry. Can I try that one again?" It is very disconcerting but after a while you realize that it isn't your attacks that are bad, it's that they have been defeated just as they started to take place.

This is another side of the whole issue of enetring.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 03-07-2003, 12:54 PM   #13
DGLinden
Dojo: Shoshin Aikido Dojos
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I agree in principle with George (hi George) and this approach because I teach standard Aikido with very good boxers as ukes throwing boxing combinations. Where the monkey wrench gets thrown in is when a fake is used (or a non-intended punch) for a set-up. Boxers often use jabs to establish distance and timing without any real commitment to the attack. Guess what? How do you respond? Do you stand there twitching untill a big right hand comes? All the ritual and training in the world does exactly nothing unless you actually practice this with an uke.

Daniel G. Linden
Author of ON MASTERING AIKIDO (c) 2004
Founder Shoshin Aikido Dojos
www.shoshindojo.com
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Old 03-07-2003, 04:00 PM   #14
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Dave,

How's it going....kinda read quickly through the post.

As an ex-infantryman (even though you are from Canada )...

to win a fight you don't wait for the fight to come to you...you go to it. A fight is always over before it starts. (Sun Tzu is in there somewhere I am sure!).

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Old 03-08-2003, 09:13 AM   #15
Kensai
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Thanks for all the help. I'll have to give it a go.

"Minimum Effort, Maximum Effciency."
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Old 03-08-2003, 07:40 PM   #16
Johnny Chiutten
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It depends on how good the person attacking you is. All techniques have counter measures. But your safe bet would be to take the person out at that first instant of movement before even one punch has begun. Otherwise with a good wing chun practitioner he/ she will deliver 5-10 strikes in one second and ........
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Old 03-09-2003, 12:07 PM   #17
Don_Modesto
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Re: Timing

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
...perceive the instant that the attacker makes the DECISION to attack. You can feel this being done when you train with the really great teachers...When you take ukemi from someone at this level you often feel as if your ability to be a good uke is compromised. You are left with the desire to be able to say "I am sorry. Can I try that one again?" It is very disconcerting but after a while you realize that it isn't your attacks that are bad, it's that they have been defeated just as they started to take place.
That puts my mind at ease a bit. All this time I thought it was me. Thanks again, George!

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
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Old 03-11-2003, 10:53 AM   #18
Ron Tisdale
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Excellent post Ledyard Sensei!

Ron Tisdale

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 03-16-2003, 04:14 AM   #19
villrg0a
 
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Re: Chain Punching.

Quote:
Chris Gee (Kensai) wrote:
I am sure you guys have been asked this a thousand times.

Having only studied Aikido for nearly a year, I am no professional (lol). So I was wondering how Aikido could deal with this.

So for example, a series of quick snappy strikes delivered similar to a Hsing I, Ba Gua or Wing Chun practioner. I only ask because I have resently been reading Park Bok Nams book on Ba gua. And he was talking about very quick strikes. So would the counter be some variation on Tsuki (sp) attack? With lots of blending?

I promise this is not some trolling thread, I am geniunely interested.

Thanks for your time in advance........
I've been practicing Aikido for almost a year now. I also have some background in jeet-kune-do. To answer your question, I think the best defense for such punches is "kaiten Nage" combined with kokyu nage. Hope this helps.
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Old 03-16-2003, 05:51 AM   #20
Laurent Veillat
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I believe the best way to deal with this is controling your "Ma" and the "maai". Then any kyo can be efficient.
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