Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-13-2003, 09:37 AM   #26
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
George:



You're such a heretic! Sorry, couldn't resist. Well, I guess it won't do anyone any good to tell the IAF (Dr. Goldsbury) since he seems to agree on the importance.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2003, 12:24 PM   #27
Dennis Hooker
Dojo: Shindai Dojo, Orlando Fl.
Location: Orlando Florida
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 456
Offline
I believe in atemi every time. However there are at least three scenarios I use and teach.

First and most basic is to destroy, injure or disoriented.

The second is to enter the body through the mind, Uke being cognizant of his environment recognizes the opening and moves to cover it and Nage can now control body and mind unified.

Third enter the mind through the body. Uke attacks with out regard and nage strikes a part of uke's body to draw the mind there and then applies technique thereby unifying body and mind and controlling at that point.

1. Destroy, injure or disorient

2. Enter the mind through the body

3. Enter the body through the mind.

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
https://www.createspace.com/238049

www.shindai.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2003, 12:31 PM   #28
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Well put, Hooker Sensei...can I borrow that one?

RT

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2003, 01:52 PM   #29
Dennis Hooker
Dojo: Shindai Dojo, Orlando Fl.
Location: Orlando Florida
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 456
Offline
Ron, you may use anything I say, just not against please.

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
https://www.createspace.com/238049

www.shindai.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2003, 02:30 PM   #30
John Boswell
 
John Boswell's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland, Texas
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Hooker Sensei,

With regard to your first scenario: Destroy, Injure or Disorient, this Atemi is a more drastic one over the other two in that it goes above and beyond mere control of the Uke, correct?

Just making sure I understood what you were saying. I really like the concepts of the last two, but wanted to clarify the first. The first scenario could easily be rolled into the other two points, but I think you intend not to do that.

Just checkin', Thanks!

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2003, 04:57 PM   #31
Dennis Hooker
Dojo: Shindai Dojo, Orlando Fl.
Location: Orlando Florida
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 456
Offline
John, sometimes drastic measures are called for to restore harmony. Sometimes when we are sick we take poison to kill the sickness. Drastic measures are necessary at times. Sometimes the brutal nature of the act of violence committed against us or a loved one or a stranger may necessitate a quick and definitive act to bring harmony back into balance. Yes I would say it should be a last measure but not one to be ruled out on principle at all cost.

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
https://www.createspace.com/238049

www.shindai.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2003, 05:20 PM   #32
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,004
Japan
Offline
The 99% figure appears on p.38 of Morihiro Saito's "Traditional Aikido" Vol. 5 and the whole of Vol. 4 is devoted to the subject.

Best regards,

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2003, 09:53 AM   #33
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
Dennis:

I like your categories. I'm glad to see the topic has been kept on an even keel.

Dr. Goldsbury's point on Saito's book is well taken. If I recollect correctly, Saito shows atemi on just about every page of that volume. He does not go into detail about the intent or the location but he shows the strikes.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2003, 12:06 PM   #34
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,639
Offline
Very Nice Description

Quote:
Dennis Hooker wrote:
I believe in atemi every time. However there are at least three scenarios I use and teach.

First and most basic is to destroy, injure or disoriented.

The second is to enter the body through the mind, Uke being cognizant of his environment recognizes the opening and moves to cover it and Nage can now control body and mind unified.

Third enter the mind through the body. Uke attacks with out regard and nage strikes a part of uke's body to draw the mind there and then applies technique thereby unifying body and mind and controlling at that point.

1. Destroy, injure or disorient

2. Enter the mind through the body

3. Enter the body through the mind.
Nice description Dennis! I'll probably steal it but I'll give you attribution when I use it when I am teaching. "As the renowned Dennis Hooker Sensei says..."

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2003, 01:51 PM   #35
John Boswell
 
John Boswell's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland, Texas
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Quote:
"As the renowned Dennis Hooker Sensei says..."
One reason I like keeping up with this forum is all the "Big Dawgs" that hang out here. Good bunch of quality sensei roam these parts.

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2003, 01:56 PM   #36
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
Dennis:

I would add one more descriptive to your destroy, injure or disorient and that would be distract

Last edited by aikidoc : 03-14-2003 at 02:10 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2003, 10:58 PM   #37
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
Dojo: Yoshokai; looking into judo
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 424
United_States
Offline
Perhaps the intent of "70% (or whatever) atemi" was that uke's actions determine what happens, more than what shite chooses to do does?
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2003, 08:05 AM   #38
jxa127
Dojo: Itten Dojo -- Mechanicsburg, PA
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 420
Offline
Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote:
Perhaps the intent of "70% (or whatever) atemi" was that uke's actions determine what happens, more than what shite chooses to do does?
Hmm. I don't think so. I've only been thrown a couple of times by highly ranked people, but when I was, there was no choice as to where I was going or what I was doing after initiating my attack.

I take O'Sensei's comment to me, at least in part, what I've read here and elsewhere: that nage (or shite) should be in a position to perform an effective strike at any point in the technique. One should be able to stop a technique part of the way through and strik uke from a position where the strike would be effective and uke could not strike back.

The idea (as I understand it) is that a sensitive uke will know he or she is vulnerable and keep trying to move to a position of less vulnerability from which to attack.

I know I'm starting to sound like a fanboy, but I like Ellis Amdur's idea for training ukemi: basically, nage should stop the technique part way through and check his or her body's relationship to uke. Nage should see if he can perform a good ukemi from that position. If not, adjust. If so, continue the technique to a different point and check again. This requires an uke who will work with you and provide helpful feedback.

I don't think there is anything revolutionary in Ellis's suggestion. It's simply a good way to check that one has proper body position and itent while performing technique. I've done this a couple of times with a guy in my dojo and it really points out where I need work (and boy do I need work!).

Regards,

-Drew

----
-Drew Ames
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2003, 08:37 AM   #39
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,004
Japan
Offline
Hello Drew,

My take on 99% atemi is that you need to unbalance your partner/opponent right from the very beginning of the encounter and maintain the state of unbalance right to the end of the encounter. So this means that you are in a position to deliver various atemi right through the encounter. Is this what Mr Amdur was teaching?

The point of the atemi is that you yourself emerge from the encounter comparatively unscathed, unlike your opponent. Am I right?

Best,

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2003, 09:38 AM   #40
jxa127
Dojo: Itten Dojo -- Mechanicsburg, PA
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 420
Offline
Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury (Peter Goldsbury) wrote:
Hello Drew,

My take on 99% atemi is that you need to unbalance your partner/opponent right from the very beginning of the encounter and maintain the state of unbalance right to the end of the encounter. So this means that you are in a position to deliver various atemi right through the encounter. Is this what Mr Amdur was teaching?
Yes, as I understand it. Bear in mind that I've only been training since late '99, so some I'm sure my perspective on what Ellis was teaching is different than others who've been around longer. But here goes: unbalancing and proper body position are a product of being in the right place and time to perform good strikes throughout the technique.

When we trained at the seminar I mentioned earlier in this thread, Ellis had us moving seamlessly from one strike to the next throughout a technique. However, we started in stages -- slowly adding one strike to the next. These strikes can be very devastating to uke (safety was constantly stressed), but they led to a constant unbalancing of the "attacker." The unbalancing was a result of the body movement that we performed (at least in part) in order to strike.
Quote:
The point of the atemi is that you yourself emerge from the encounter comparatively unscathed, unlike your opponent. Am I right?
I feel a bit awkward answering if you're right given your experience relative to mine. Having said that -- I'm not sure. On one hand, of course that's the point of atemi. On the other hand, we can choose not to do the atemi, but maintain the proper body positioning and unbalancing that comes from atemi, thereby (in theory) not harming the attacker more than might occur from the fall.

My instructor, Keith Engle (whom I think you know), also makes the point that a really good attacker will not offer many opportunities for really effective atemi.

The only time I've had to use aikido outside the dojo, I really did not want to harm the person I threw. I used no atemi, and the throw and pin defused the situation very quickly. In that case, I wasn't thinking about whether or not to use atemi. Something happened, and the throw happened a second or two later; without a lot of conscious thought on my part. In the end, my "uke" was unharmed, and I got a bruise from running into some furniture while performing the throw.

For me, right now, the main purpose of atemi is to help me train unbalancing and good body position.

I should add that Ellis's views on atemi can be found in one of the essays in Dueling with O'Sensei.

Regards,

-Drew

----
-Drew Ames
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2003, 10:03 AM   #41
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,639
Offline
Quote:
Drew Ames (jxa127) wrote:
My instructor, Keith Engle (whom I think you know), also makes the point that a really good attacker will not offer many opportunities for really effective atemi.
Yes, this is the point. What would that good attacker do when you threw your atemi? He would deflect it and strike your center. Or he would defect it and run a counter technique. If you are executing your Aikido movement properly you should be able to do your technique if the uke is attempting to defeat your atemi and counter strike or counter throw. It is precisely the instant in which he attempts to counter your atemi that you can enetr and take his center (for instance on a technique in which you have to move under the uke's arm like Sankyo). While the uke is trying to strike you, you are moving under the arm, his need to block or deflect the atemi in the first place put you ahead of him on your timing and you will pass under the arm to safety an instant before his atemi arrives to strike you. I'd like to see somone move under that arm without an atemi.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2003, 04:41 PM   #42
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,004
Japan
Offline
Quote:
Drew Ames (jxa127) wrote:
I feel a bit awkward answering if you're right given your experience relative to mine. Having said that -- I'm not sure. On one hand, of course that's the point of atemi. On the other hand, we can choose not to do the atemi, but maintain the proper body positioning and unbalancing that comes from atemi, thereby (in theory) not harming the attacker more than might occur from the fall.

My instructor, Keith Engle (whom I think you know), also makes the point that a really good attacker will not offer many opportunities for really effective atemi.

For me, right now, the main purpose of atemi is to help me train unbalancing and good body position.

Regards,

-Drew
Yes, I am sure Mr Engle is right. In my experience with taking ukemi from top Aikikai shihans like Chiba and Yamaguchi, they expect hard attacks and can/will use atemi at any point—and they expect you to counter as well. That is why they are 'sensei': they have figured it out already.

I think to get to anything near their level, you need advanced 'research training', where the roles of uke and tori can become very blurred. But you also need to have mastered the forms, so that they become virtually automatic.

I always use atemi with my beginner students. My colleagues do not do so as much and the students have figured out that in my classes they'd better be ready...

Best regards,

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2003, 08:09 AM   #43
jxa127
Dojo: Itten Dojo -- Mechanicsburg, PA
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 420
Offline
Mr. Ledyard and Mr. Goldsbury,

Thank you for the responses. After reading your posts, I feel that I'm on the right track to a greater understanding of strikes in aikido.

Regards,

-Drew

----
-Drew Ames
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2003, 08:46 AM   #44
Alec Corper
 
Alec Corper's Avatar
Dojo: Itten Suginami Dojo, Nunspeet
Location: Wapenveld
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 270
Netherlands
Offline
Great thread, I'm almost afraid to add anything, but anyway here goes. George Ledyard's article is excellent and right to the point.Firstly what I would suggest is that too many Aikido practioners have no experience of delivering or receiving atemi and therefore no realistic idea of what degree of power is required to actually affect someone, especially someone big and strong. A long time ago I practised Chinese boxing and fought in regular competitions. Even taking into account the difference adrenaline/psychology wise between this and real combat, after a match you discvered countless bruise and pains that had no effect whatsoever at the time. I think that, a la Systema, we need to practise on each other safely to gain some understanding of soft targets, depth focus , pain thresholds, and even correct hand and foot tensions. I have seen yondans and godans suggesting kicks with their toes, which in most cases would end their chances of even standing up.

Greetings to Peter, I always enjoy the realistic use of atemi and your analyses of suki in a technique. I have noticed that for beginners (less than 10 Years) the focus on atemi leads away from Aikido to something more like bad karate because of peoples continuing fascination with the destructive power of a strike. I try to teach this as well to my students but it remains an open question. I think Ellis Amdur says it perfectly in duelling with oSensei. Read it if you haven't yet.

greetings Alec corper

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2003, 08:55 AM   #45
Alec Corper
 
Alec Corper's Avatar
Dojo: Itten Suginami Dojo, Nunspeet
Location: Wapenveld
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 270
Netherlands
Offline
PS to Peter, the suggestion concerning Ellis Amdurs book was a general one to all on the thread, I know you have read it.

sumimasen, Sensei

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2003, 09:16 AM   #46
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,004
Japan
Offline
Quote:
Alec Corper wrote:
PS to Peter, the suggestion concerning Ellis Amdurs book was a general one to all on the thread, I know you have read it.

sumimasen, Sensei
Hello, Alec,

I have just agreed to review the book for the "Journal of Asian Martial Arts". The review is meant to be short, sharp, and critical, and I will do my best, as the Japanese say.

Best regards,

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2003, 10:25 AM   #47
Dave Miller
 
Dave Miller's Avatar
Dojo: UCO Budo Society
Location: Oklahoma
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 204
Offline
Do symbol Some thoughts from a new guy:

Hi. I am new to the forum and fairly new to Aikido. I have been training for less than 2 years now. I hold the rank of Ikyu and hope to attain Shodon in a couple of months. I say that not to brag but to say that I am close to having a good grasp of the basics of Aiki (at least, I hope so ).

As I understand atemi (which is just a pretty basic understanding at this point) it seems that everything we do should carry at least a small amount of it. I view atemi as "intentionality" or, if you like, the projection of your ki in such a way as to alter your opponent in some fashion. This can be done through atemi-waza or kansetsu-waza with the common notion being that both must start from the ground. Any force that we apply that doesn't come from the ground, through our opponent, will be ineffectual.

It is this ineffectuality that, at least in my dojo, leads to kata being more dance-like and less martial. Uke just does what they're supposed to for tori to complete the technique. This is how kuzushi get's sloppy and technique in general begins to degrade.

Recently, while preparing for a demo, we decided to use more "realistic" strikes. We did this simply because "outsiders" don't generally understand the types of attacks we use. The unintended result of this is that uke was attacking with force and intentionality and tori was forced to respond in kind. Although a little intimidating for lower ranks, it made for a great demo and illustrated nicely the need for atemi by both uke and tori. We are currently thinking of how to incorporate this type of practice into our normal randori regimine.

DAVE

If you're working too hard, you're doing it wrong.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2003, 12:24 PM   #48
mura-san
Dojo: Takemusu Aikido España
Location: spain
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 13
Offline



It's two photo of ueshibas aikido's guide.

Last edited by mura-san : 04-30-2003 at 12:27 PM.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:54 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate