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Old 03-01-2003, 12:31 PM   #51
mike lee
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The issue here was STRIKING vital points of the human body, which can cause serious damage and death not the atemi that we use in aikido. The fact that some "experts" are unable to distinguish the difference only alarms me all the more.

I can and have executed a wide range of aikido techniques against trained attackers without using atemi. In street-fighting, atemi is usually a waste of time, because it interrupts the flow of ki. This is the way that I was originally trained in Ki Aikido and I have found it to be extremely effective.

I also prefer to use judo throws in street-fighting, which also involve absolutely no atemi, because, once again, atemi is usually a waste of time. Trapping and throwing is extremely effective, as has been proven time and again in UFC bouts.

Years ago, I learned how to strike vital points of the body when I studied Shaolin Kung Fu. I learned about the serious damage that such strikes can cause. That's why I decided to learn aikido so I wouldn't have to resort to such means to defend myself.

The thought that some people want to incorporate such strikes with aikido turns my stomach.
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Old 03-01-2003, 01:07 PM   #52
George S. Ledyard
 
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Vital Points

Quote:
Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote:
The issue here was STRIKING vital points of the human body, which can cause serious damage and death not the atemi that we use in aikido. The fact that some "experts" are unable to distinguish the difference only alarms me all the more.

I can and have executed a wide range of aikido techniques against trained attackers without using atemi. In street-fighting, atemi is usually a waste of time, because it interrupts the flow of ki. This is the way that I was originally trained in Ki Aikido and I have found it to be extremely effective.

I also prefer to use judo throws in street-fighting, which also involve absolutely no atemi, because, once again, atemi is usually a waste of time. Trapping and throwing is extremely effective, as has been proven time and again in UFC bouts.

Years ago, I learned how to strike vital points of the body when I studied Shaolin Kung Fu. I learned about the serious damage that such strikes can cause. That's why I decided to learn aikido so I wouldn't have to resort to such means to defend myself.

The thought that some people want to incorporate such strikes with aikido turns my stomach.
Atemi when not directed at vital points is ineffectice as the UFC and your street fighting experince has pointed out.

What do you think the atemi we use in Aikido really are? As I said in my previous post most of what is taught in the way of atemi is generic. It represents the pointing out of a suki, an opening to the partner, it is not necessarily the actual atemi. It is a line of attack to grab your partner's attention, to redirect his energy. But this only works because the partner knows that what this strike really represents is something that MUST be dealt with because it represents his potential destruction. If it didn't he could igore it, take the hit, and keep attacking which is what you see in the UFC. When strikes are not directed at the vital points which could potentially kill or injure there is no need to shift ones attention to them. This gives the great advantage to those who are merely tough and strong over those that are skilled. Hence the Tank Abbots of the world.

While laudable in intention, your ideas about the ethics of the art are simplistic to the extreme. Non-violence is much more complicated than the idea that no injury should occur. There are times in which a death is necessary to protect the innocent and restore harmony, in which an injury IS non-violent because it allowed you to spare the life of the attacker. If I can knock a knife wielding attacker out I have spared his life. Because of the current ideas about Use of Force one of the Chief causes of injury to police officers is from UNDER-application of force not over application. They are so concerend with not injuring the subject that they under react, the situation escalates, weapons get accessed and then the next thing you know one or the other is dead. The non-violent option is sometimes stepping in and ending the confrontation with one blow, or breaking a limb to acheive a disarm which then allows you to de-escalate.

As for your seeming assertion that using a judo technique is somehow less dangerous than an atemi... Not on an untrained subject on the pavement. In fact throwing an opponent to the ground is far more likely to inflict injury if they don't know how to fall then a jusdicious use of atemi. Most people couldn't do a stike that would even approach the power of the impact of a full sized adult hitting the pavement.

As for your stomach turning... you don't know me, have no knowledge of the kind of person I am, yet you make me out to be some kind of monster, an aiki-Saddam simply because I am telling you that you are incorrect in your assertions about atemi. Well, in the absence of any likilihood that we will meet in person, I would suggest you try Tums for your stomach problem.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 03-01-2003, 01:22 PM   #53
mike lee
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Quote:
While laudable in intention, your ideas about the ethics of the art are simplistic to the extreme.
No they are simplistic to the practical and useful, not to mention proven.

I assure you this. Teach vital strikes in aikido and in a very short period of time, an aikidoist in America will be going to prison, quite possibly for a very long time. Good luck!
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Old 03-01-2003, 01:34 PM   #54
Les Kelso
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One seems to sense mr lee has some hidden agenda against Dr Riggs Sensei.

His attacks (ad-hominum) expose his inability to deal with the issue at hand of atemi/non atemi.

I (as others noted) are curious why a person of such SUPPOSED stature would stoop in such an unkind and rude manner to mud slinging and unfounded accusations and threats.

However rather than to address mr lee directly and incur some of his tirade, I resort to a saying given by a close friend and fellow aikidoka.

"When you argue with a fool, then there are two fools arguing."

Les Kelso

Ta Ch'u Academy
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Old 03-01-2003, 02:16 PM   #55
aikidoc
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Generally, I do not like to get into verbal "discussions" like this but Mr. Lee's statements have frequently become extreme.

Here is an example from Mr. Lee.

"I assure you this. Teach vital strikes in aikido and in a very short period of time, an aikidoist in America will be going to prison, quite possibly for a very long time. Good luck!"

Since this whole deal is about my article submission, this statement is absurd. Again, criticism without knowledge of the content. My article specifically states that practicing knock outs (vasovagal faints) is dangerous with potential lethal side effects and is contrary to the philosophy of aikido.

I have practiced atemi waza to various body areas since 1995 and other than accidently causing a vasovagal faint in my early study of one student with a light tap, I haven't killed anyone. My friend Gary Chase has been doing it for a lot longer and all of his students are alive and well. George Dillman who practices kyosho jitsu and knocks people out regularly to my knowledge has not killed anyone either.

Back to lack of knowledge of what I wrote. I specifically stated in the submission that the bone crushing aspect of atemi (which is the kill risk) is not necessary nor needed. Pain compliance can be inflicted without it.

Here is another one:

"The issue here was STRIKING vital points of the human body, which can cause serious damage and death not the atemi that we use in aikido. The fact that some "experts" are unable to distinguish the difference only alarms me all the more."

I never claimed to be an expert only a student. Also, I do not advocate the dim mak concept of striking to shut down organ systems and cause failure and death. Without knowledge of what I specifially wrote you attack me and frequently misquote even statements I make in this thread: For example, I never claimed aikido came from India and have no idea where you came up with that statement.

No one practicing aikido advocates regularly "killing" our attackers with viscious atemi to vital points. Vital point attacks do not have to be brutally forceful to result in an effective outcome. In fact, many pressure points are on the arm and can lead to control of the uke with a press or squeeze of the pressure point without causing tissue damage or organ damage. Generally, it does cause pain. To assume that pain will not result from a martial encounter is ignorance of the implications of the seriousness of a full on encounter with destructive intent.
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Old 03-01-2003, 03:27 PM   #56
Don_Modesto
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Quote:
Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote:
Striking vital areas of someones body is "non-aiki," especially when aikido offers so many better alternatives.

DJM: "Aiki" means to take the attacker off ballance immediately upon egagenment. Ergo...

This, as most aikidoists know, is what makes the art morally and ethically superior to most other martial arts, specifically striking arts.

DJM: See "Dueling with Osensei" by Ellis Amdur (http://www.ellisamdur.com/DuelingwithOsensei.htm) for examples of the moral and ethical models as they practice in Japan (the one driving his middle knuckle into Terry Dobson's Adam's Apple, e.g.) Other advanced practitioners have weighed in online on this and concluded that as practiced, many of aikido's ideals are better understood as pretenses.

Most students know this, and anyone who is instructing the art should know this.

DJM: As a given?! Ergo, disagreeing with you, they're wrong? How convenient.

O-Sensei clearly stated that when someone intends to strike, this intent defies the laws of the universe.

DJM: I'm embarrassed to comment without a better grasp (literacy, e.g.) of Japanese, but I believe he said "attack", not "strike." the difference is intention.

Atemi in aikido is used only as a distraction or to check one's position. Any physical contact with atemi is usually only accidental.

DJM: Nonsense. Pertinents citations have been offered above.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
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Old 03-01-2003, 07:04 PM   #57
Col.Clink
Dojo: Waiuku Ki Society
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Re: Vital Points

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
Non-violence is much more complicated than the idea that no injury should occur. There are times in which a death is necessary to protect the innocent and restore harmony, in which an injury IS non-violent because it allowed you to spare the life of the attacker. If I can knock a knife wielding attacker out I have spared his life. Because of the current ideas about Use of Force one of the Chief causes of injury to police officers is from UNDER-application of force not over application. They are so concerend with not injuring the subject that they under react, the situation escalates, weapons get accessed and then the next thing you know one or the other is dead. The non-violent option is sometimes stepping in and ending the confrontation with one blow, or breaking a limb to acheive a disarm which then allows you to de-escalate.
This thread has gone off topic a litle, which I am most pleased about!!

Some great views expressed here, I can't help myself but to reply.

I firmly agree with the statement above by Ledyard Sensei. I have expressed these same views to students at my dojo. I have no where near the experience of the Sensei that have been posting on this thread so the following may be just inexperience talking.



To avoid serious injury to either party, is something I tell my students often. A broken finger is better than a broken arm, broken arm better than a broken leg, broken leg better than a broken back, and a broken back better than taking their life, although some may disagree on that particular viewpoint.

It all is dependant on the attacker and the seriousness of the attack. Does the attacker have a knife or a plastic spoon? You get the drift.

Regarding atemi, my view is anything goes, so long as you know what your atemi is going to do. To take the mind, to off balance, to distract, to end the conflict, if it can be done to restore the harmony present before the conflict then fine.

I have not had alot of training in atemi, but find myself 'finding' the places to use it.

One student who likes to resist when he thinks something will not work against him, finds it does when he cheerfully realises he has openings for atemi

I can see Mike Lee's points on the subject and that he feels strongly, and to a degree I also agree with some of his views.

Perhaps a seperate thread on the uses of atemi, different types and the effects. Advantages and disadvatages in application and experiences of those that have applied them in reality?? (if posted before my apologies)

Kelly, I think it's best to try out a dojo near you if possible, practice is the best way to learn anything in Aikido.

Hmmm...blend and redirect, hope it's working!!

The essence of restoring harmony is to:

a) end conflict

b) end conflict

my shillings worth (about 8c too much!!)

cheers

Rob

"Excess leads to the path of Wisdom"
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Old 03-06-2003, 10:27 AM   #58
John Boswell
 
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Hey Rob,

After this thread deviated off course to the magnitude that it did, I started a seperate thread on ATEMI and all aspects of it. It is here in the Tecnique Forum of AikiWeb.

I look forward to anyone and everyone posting their views on Atemi there so we can get it all on the table and see how one person's view varies from others and get a more condensed view of it all.

Very exciting stuff here.

On a more personal note, and this is directed at no one person, I would like to see my thread on Atemi stay as objective as possible. My intent was not to point fingers and bring about any "Right" or "Wrong" views on Atemi. My intent was to allow ALL views on Atemi to come out so others can analyze and break it down for themselves. Obviously, given the passion and questions from this subject... there is much to be learned by everyone on the subject of Atemi.

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Old 03-06-2003, 01:05 PM   #59
acot
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I find this thread very entertaining. As if the future of Aikido was on the line. Aikiweb is to support the Aikido and Martial Arts community as a whole by keeping people informed. This message board is like a soap opera never ending points of view and points of view. In the quest of high ethical philsophy can only be a personal one and its not for everyone. It's impossible to look in to the hearts of men (and women) and judge their intent with the knowledge of destruction.

Ryan



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Old 03-06-2003, 05:29 PM   #60
Col.Clink
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Do symbol

Quote:
John Boswell wrote:
Hey Rob,

After this thread deviated off course to the magnitude that it did, I started a seperate thread on ATEMI and all aspects of it. It is here in the Tecnique Forum of AikiWeb.

I look forward to anyone and everyone posting their views on Atemi there so we can get it all on the table and see how one person's view varies from others and get a more condensed view of it all.
Hi John,

I realised this after I posted, but it was too late to edit. I'll check out the thread a little later and try to define my thoughts a little more.

cheers

Rob

"Excess leads to the path of Wisdom"
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Old 03-13-2003, 06:14 AM   #61
Kelly Allen
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The idea of an Aikidoka going to prison because he or she learned pressure point atemi is ludicrus. There are lots of very devistating MAs out there that use and train in many dibilitating and sometimes fatal technics and their not going to jail. Mike must think we're a real uncivilized lot.

Last edited by Kelly Allen : 03-13-2003 at 06:17 AM.
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Old 03-13-2003, 06:51 AM   #62
mike lee
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adding injury to insult

Quote:
Mike must think we're a real uncivilized lot.
No Kelly. But you are behind the times this thread has been dead for weeks. Where've you been? Shovelling snow or learning how to spell?
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Old 03-13-2003, 11:05 AM   #63
John Boswell
 
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Quote:
Josephine Lewis

Username: Jo Lewis

02-21-2003 07:28 PM

Location: England

Local Time: 05:02 PM

Registered: Feb 2003

Posts: 1
Mike,

I hate to break it to ya, but this thread is 20 DAYS old. Not weeks. But that's okay... keep it up! I've enjoyed this thread quite a bit!!

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Old 03-14-2003, 07:10 AM   #64
Kelly Allen
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Re: adding injury to insult

Quote:
Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote:
No Kelly. But you are behind the times this thread has been dead for weeks. Where've you been? Shovelling snow or learning how to spell?
Lets see here. From the 6th which was the last post I saw, to the 13th which was the post you are refering to, is far from weeks Mike. I may be a poor speller, but you're a terrible mathimatician.

And a thread is only finished when people lose intrest in the topic. Your insults serve only to show people on this Forum what kind of abrasive personality you have, and ultimatly they will never take you seriously, and begin to ignore you. Now if you'll excuse me I have to go shovel some snow.
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