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Old 10-27-2006, 12:54 AM   #1
Boontom
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Is this true!?

Tonight, my family was eating at a restaurant while I was in class, this guy who was sitting at their table was a Blackbelt in some form of Martial Art I'm not sure which one. He said that Aikido is only good with others doing Aikido and cant hold up with other martial arts. I really don't think this is true as Aikidokists practice against kicks, grabs, punches, chops, weapons, etc.
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Old 10-27-2006, 01:47 AM   #2
batemanb
 
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Re: Is this true!?

Hi David, it's possible, but it's really down to the individuals Aikido. There are many threads on this subject here on Aikiweb, just search for Aikido vs... or Aikido doesn't work etc. I wouldn't worry about it too much, if you enjoy your training, that's what's important.

regards
Bryan

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 10-27-2006, 01:55 AM   #3
sullivanw
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Re: Is this true!?

I'm of the mind that the better martial artist will be more likely to persevere than one of any particular style.
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Old 10-27-2006, 02:03 AM   #4
kironin
 
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Re: Is this true!?

a "blackbelt" could mean as little as training for less than 2 years.
it doesn't mean expert, keep that in mind.

a good friend who has been a karate instructor for more than 30 years could give you story after story of a blackbelt coming in wanting to retain their rank and then getting wiped across the floor. The good ones stay and learn.

it's not the art, it's how you train.

how you train depends on your goals.

I don't talk ill of other arts but I know what my goals are and what I like. When you make a blanket generalization about something that you have not studied you are bound to make an ass of yourself.

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Old 10-27-2006, 03:22 AM   #5
Al Williams
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Wink Re: Is this true!?

This is a view point that you come across from time to time. Some people don't see the effectiveness of Aikido- and Wing Chung for some reason? To me it comes from the person not really understanding the art and if they have tried Aikido have not gone in with an open mind and not been able to perform proper technique.
I could not use Silat against anyone- have tried some techniques and drills. That's not to say it's not effective, only that I can not apply it effectively.
I use Aikido in the real world and it works.
Advice- Make sure that what you do in the dojo is a directly applicable to the street. As you move through your training you will find that application outside the dojo will show itself and you will not have to worry anymore.

TRAIN HARD AND OFTEN
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Old 10-27-2006, 05:17 AM   #6
acot
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Re: Is this true!?

Doubt is one of the best training tools you can have. Explore it, and ask deep questions of yourself, of your teacher, and your style. Not arrogant questions, but raw naked honest questions. This will ultimately make your training much more progressive and effective for what it does in the long run.

Peace
Ryan
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Old 10-27-2006, 06:35 AM   #7
jason jordan
 
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Re: Is this true!?

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
When you make a blanket generalization about something that you have not studied you are bound to make an ass of yourself.
Craig for that statement alone you are my hero!
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Old 10-27-2006, 08:28 AM   #8
SeiserL
 
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Re: Is this true!?

IMHO, who's Aikido against who's other martial art?
I've seen effective and ineffective in both.
Let it go.
Train so you know they weren't talking about you and your Aikido.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 10-27-2006, 10:06 AM   #9
odudog
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Re: Is this true!?

A true artists of any art would not have made a statement like that. His statement just shows his lack of knowledge. I'm sure he would not think that Segal Sensei's art doesn't work or Tisser's etc...
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Old 10-27-2006, 11:55 AM   #10
Boontom
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Re: Is this true!?

Thank you all, the guy who said it had been training in martial arts for 32 years, I am unsure of what martial arts he knows, except that he teaches Jujitsu. My brother, my friend, and I have plans to each learn a martial art and as we get better and learn more to battle against each other all at once. I'm learning Aikido, my brother is gunna learn Ninjutsu and my friend is gunna learn Kung fu.
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Old 10-27-2006, 12:23 PM   #11
crbateman
 
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Re: Is this true!?

Quote:
David Jackson wrote:
My brother, my friend, and I have plans to each learn a martial art and as we get better and learn more to battle against each other all at once.
I'm not sure that you have hit on a valid reason to train in Aikido. There is little chance you will win unless you find a reason and a way to stay out of the "battle".
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Old 10-27-2006, 01:34 PM   #12
Aristeia
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Re: Is this true!?

discussions about how Aikido would fare fighting other martial artists miss the point imo.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 10-27-2006, 01:38 PM   #13
kironin
 
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Re: Is this true!?

Quote:
David Jackson wrote:
Thank you all, the guy who said it had been training in martial arts for 32 years, I am unsure of what martial arts he knows, except that he teaches Jujitsu. My brother, my friend, and I have plans to each learn a martial art and as we get better and learn more to battle against each other all at once. I'm learning Aikido, my brother is gunna learn Ninjutsu and my friend is gunna learn Kung fu.

Then he hasn't leaned much in 32 years though he maybe good technically at his art.

The last part of of what you said is pretty funny.
How old are you ?
15 ?

A couple of rules. All three of you are required to train consistently and frequently in your respective arts for 10 years before touching a hair on each others head. You then have 1 minute to all three battle each other all at once. Then train sincerely in your respective arts for another 10 years without touching a hair on each others head. Then you get two minutes.
and so on...

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Old 10-27-2006, 01:56 PM   #14
RoyK
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Re: Is this true!?

Quote:
Clark Bateman wrote:
There is little chance you will win unless you find a reason and a way to stay out of the "battle".

I find this sentence a bit ambiguous. Can you please clarify?
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Old 10-27-2006, 02:01 PM   #15
DonMagee
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Re: Is this true!?

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
Then he hasn't leaned much in 32 years though he maybe good technically at his art.

The last part of of what you said is pretty funny.
How old are you ?
15 ?

A couple of rules. All three of you are required to train consistently and frequently in your respective arts for 10 years before touching a hair on each others head. You then have 1 minute to all three battle each other all at once. Then train sincerely in your respective arts for another 10 years without touching a hair on each others head. Then you get two minutes.
and so on...
He does sound very young.

However, I'd suggest if they really are hell bent on fighting, that they simply go fight. I'm sure there is MMA in your area, sign up in amatures and give it a shot. You will quickly see the difference between fighitng and what's on TV and the mystical world of martial arts. It's not about who's got what belt, or who studied what art. It's about who wants it more, trains harder, and has better cardio.

Then maybe you will enjoy it and keep at it and become a better fighter, or maybe you will realise there is more to life then being some bad boy and spend your time elsewhere. It all depends on you. Personally, I enjoy fighting.

Of course that same jiujitsu guy will probably tell you not to fight, spar, or get in the ring because it builds bad habbits because you can't grab some guys nuts. So what do I know?

But in the end you need to find out what you want from the martial arts, then make sure you are getting it. If you want to be a UFC fighter, you will never get that out of aikido. If you want to be a boxer, you are never going to get that out of BJJ lessons. If you want to defend yourself against a sword, kickboxing is probably not going to help you much. In the end though it comes down to the person, how much dedication they put into what they train, how good their physical condishoning is, and how bad they want it.

But dont worry, you have years to figure it out. But if you and your friends want to fight, find a safe enviroment to do so, like a good MMA/boxing/etc gym.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 10-27-2006, 02:54 PM   #16
crbateman
 
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Re: Is this true!?

Quote:
Roy Klein wrote:
I find this sentence a bit ambiguous. Can you please clarify?
I don't find it ambiguous. The fight is won by not being in it.
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Old 10-27-2006, 10:04 PM   #17
acot
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Re: Is this true!?

Some Jujitsu teachers I've met do some to not like Aikido. Especially from the Aiki-Jujitsu line. From what I've listen to they find the part of not leaving a lot of damage hard to swollow. However I've noticed that in the upper levels of some of the systems they also aim to have enough control to not do a lot of damage.
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Old 10-28-2006, 10:09 AM   #18
ian
 
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Re: Is this true!?

Variations on this thread are always occuring. Basically in competition its quite hard to use since people know roughly what you are going to do and are doing speculative jabs to draw you out.

In real life people attack from behind the sides, multiple attacks, and are usually far more aggressive and don't use tentative jabs (just a sudden wallop with which they tend to knock you unconcious or a grab or push proceeding such a strike).

As an illustration, I had to save a karate instructor (an aquaintence) who, in an argument, was just picked straight up and thrown on to his back and then battered from the mount position. (just put a choke on the person who was in the mount position, which also illustrates the fact that ground-fighting has its weaknesses as well).

Learn to strike really hard and fast and learn a bit of ground-fighting, but focus on your aikido, and I think you'd cover yourself well with self-defence. If you want to compete you need to know the rules of the competition and then base your attacks around these rules (even NHB won't allow you to use a bottle or to enlist the help of your drunken friends). For example you could just jump on this bloke unexpectedly and do a rear choke to illustrate this point - this type of attack would pretty much work on anyone, regardless of ability, but you have to know how to do it properly.

Keep your mind open and you're right to question yourself! From my experience aikido works well for a multitude of self-defence situations (if you can also strike and do some basic groundwork), but is unlikely to work well in a competition. Also, the instructors ability to teach and his understanding of self-defence as well as your natural ability is usually more important than the martial art you are doing.

(*) PS this is not 'dissing' karate - nobody is undefeatable.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 10-28-2006, 10:18 AM   #19
ian
 
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Re: Is this true!?

Quote:
Ryan Bertram wrote:
From what I've listen to they find the part of not leaving a lot of damage hard to swollow.
I would agree and I think Ueshiba is actually of the same mind. The training method allows more speedy techniques to be done than ju-jitsu, but it is useful to know how to damage someone with the same technique. However many many self-defence situations are with people you know, women or minors or other people you do not want to damage (e.g. I've had a drunk person at a wedding grab me and been a bit rough I've broken the grip using nikyo, but I was neither overly painful nor did I kick him in the face as he went down - as would be recommended in ju-jitsu.). The situation diffused (I'm little so people tend to pick on me) and no hard feelings!

Often when people talk of the philosophy of aikido they have a detatched hippy view. I have nothing against killing people if the moment requires it. However real life situations are more than just the fight. They are about the repercussions (whether they will just come back with their mates and try to do worse damage, whether you will regret mutilating that poor old woman etc.) I think Ueshiba learnt from the Japanese defeat in WWII that, no matter how big and strong you are there is always someone bigger and stronger. Avoid physical conflict if possible, if necessary utilise it, but utilise it wisely and not indescriminantly (saying this, don't take risks - better safe than sorry). Often the whole problem in self-defence is judgement (zanshin/awareness etc). You know yourself and you know your enemy and you'll win every battle and all that. Aikido really is a gem, but people often do not see it in its real holistic context.

I always like to think of fights in this way. Only get into fights you can win. i.e. if you fight for just reasons (not for your ego), whether you need or loose the battle, you will always have done the right thing (and thus you will still have victory in defeat).

Last edited by ian : 10-28-2006 at 10:23 AM.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 10-28-2006, 02:39 PM   #20
graham
 
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Re: Is this true!?

Are you sure his person has been studying for 32 years? Sounds like a bit of an adolescent thing to say, in my opinion.

It seems to me that, generally speaking, the more someone studies any martial art the less likely they are to have those "this style is better than that" type of discussion.
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Old 10-28-2006, 08:27 PM   #21
Ketsan
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Re: Is this true!?

I tend to visit "other places" as my sensei calls them, and in these "other places" it is often a commonly held assumption that Aikido is ineffective and to be fair I had a lot of problems with it and tended to blame the art because basically my mind was stuck on trying to produce a technique rather than just harmonising and extending. I used to say that if you took someone in a direction they would resist and so the technique would fail and ergo Aikido didn't work.This is what other martial artists see.
I was half right, they do resist, the "technique" does "fail" but Aikido still works because I use the resistance to take him somewhere else. Actually, no, that's wrong, I don't take him anywhere, I help him get to where he's going.
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Old 10-28-2006, 10:25 PM   #22
DonMagee
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Re: Is this true!?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
I tend to visit "other places" as my sensei calls them, and in these "other places" it is often a commonly held assumption that Aikido is ineffective and to be fair I had a lot of problems with it and tended to blame the art because basically my mind was stuck on trying to produce a technique rather than just harmonising and extending. I used to say that if you took someone in a direction they would resist and so the technique would fail and ergo Aikido didn't work.This is what other martial artists see.
I was half right, they do resist, the "technique" does "fail" but Aikido still works because I use the resistance to take him somewhere else. Actually, no, that's wrong, I don't take him anywhere, I help him get to where he's going.
*puts on devils advocate hat*

Are you hoping your not helping him get to the mount and ground and pound, maybe he's going there

Just messing around with ya

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 10-30-2006, 04:36 PM   #23
Ketsan
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Re: Is this true!?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
*puts on devils advocate hat*

Are you hoping your not helping him get to the mount and ground and pound, maybe he's going there

Just messing around with ya
I'd be lying if I said it hasn't happened but I've got a couple of tricks handy for when it does happen.
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Old 10-31-2006, 08:20 AM   #24
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Is this true!?

As long as those "tricks" don't include "poke him in the eye"...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 10-31-2006, 12:27 PM   #25
Mike Hamer
 
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Re: Is this true!?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
As long as those "tricks" don't include "poke him in the eye"...

Best,
Ron
I think poking someone in the eye could be very effective in a self defense situation.

To speak ill of anything is against the nature of Aikido
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