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Old 02-12-2003, 02:47 PM   #1
Hanna B
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Question Dose of training and development

Will my aikido develop proportional to the dose of training I am on? Will six classes a week make me progress in double speed, compared to three classes? 50 % faster?

Or is the training dose not the most relevant thing?
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Old 02-12-2003, 03:06 PM   #2
akiy
 
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From "Zen in the Martial Arts":
Quote:
A young boy traveled across Japan to the school of a famous martial artist. When he arrived at the dojo he was given an audience by the sensei.

"What do you wish from me?" the master asked.

"I wish to be your student and become the finest kareteka in the land," the boy replied. "How long must I study?"

"Ten years at least," the master answered.

"Ten years is a long time," said the boy. "What if I studied twice as hard as all your other students?"

"Twenty years," replied the master.

"Twenty years! What if I practice day and night with all my effort?"

"Thirty years," was the master's reply.

"How is it that each time I say I will work harder, you tell me that it will take longer?" the boy asked.

"The answer is clear. When one eye is fixed upon your destination, there is only one eye left with which to find the way."
That quoted, though, I think it really depends on the student, the teacher, and the student's peer group -- not just how much time one spends training at the dojo.

-- Jun

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Old 02-12-2003, 03:07 PM   #3
rachmass
Dojo: Aikido of Cincinnati/Huron Valley Aikikai
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Hi Hannah,

It depends on the person, and where they are at in their training. I've trained as much as six days a week, two hours a day, and as little as two days a week. Sometimes the two times a week bouts are making more progress than the daily training which has burned me out in the past. I think it depends where you are in your training, and it varies from individual to individual. Personally, I find four days a week to be optimal.

best,

Rachel
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Old 02-12-2003, 03:53 PM   #4
Nacho_mx
Dojo: Federación Mexicana de Aikido
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If you can take six classes a week, do it. How fast can you improve depends on regular attendance and your own natural talent. Don´t expect immediate rewards because that leads to early frustration.
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Old 02-12-2003, 07:38 PM   #5
MaylandL
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Quote:
Rachel Massey (rachmass) wrote:
...Personally, I find four days a week to be optimal.

...
I would tend to agree with this based on my experience. I train Tuesdays, Thursdays, Saturdays and Sundays with 2 hour sessions. There is enough recovery time between sessions and enough mat time to make progress.

I guess that's why my wife says she's an aikido widow

All the best for training.

Mayland
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Old 02-12-2003, 09:18 PM   #6
Bogeyman
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Personally I find that it varies as to my optimal amount of mat time. The important parts for me are that I am enjoying myself and that I am able to focus sharply. If either of these are happening then I get less out of the training. A couple of other factors are how well you connect with your partners (including their ukemi) and your sensei. Sometimes I find that one two hour class is best or I will train everyday for weeks. Just trust your feelings.

E
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Old 02-12-2003, 11:04 PM   #7
PhilJ
 
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Jun beat me to the punch on that story. It was my original teacher's favorite.

I agree with Eric, and recommend you try "winging" it. Ask yourself what you learned two days ago, and if you can remember, then you probably aren't on the "burn out" track.

Be careful about sinking into a microbiotic-type viewpoint. That is, don't get so involved in the little details that you lose sight of the big picture.

Finally, if you can go back to class the next day -- fully refreshed -- then I say "Why not?"

*Phil

Phillip Johnson
Enso Aikido Dojo, Burnsville, MN
An Aikido Bukou Dojo
http://www.aikidobukou.com
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Old 02-12-2003, 11:38 PM   #8
bob_stra
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Re: Dose of training and development

Quote:
Hanna Björk (Hanna B) wrote:
Will my aikido develop proportional to the dose of training I am on? Will six classes a week make me progress in double speed, compared to three classes? 50 % faster?

Or is the training dose not the most relevant thing?
Progress at what? Accumulation of techniques or technical proficiecy in a few skills?

Either way, FYI

http://216.239.33.100/search?q=cache...hl=en&ie=UTF-8

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/coach...ol31/table.htm
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Old 02-13-2003, 01:08 AM   #9
Edward
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I myself practice aikido 6 days a week, and practice kendo on Sundays. If you believe the DO theory, you have to practice every day. The purpose of the practice is not to improve, but the practice itself. If you focus on the improvement alone, you will get frustrated by how slow it may (or may not) come.

Now to answer you question, I think yes, the improvement is proportional to the amount of training you invest in. But it is also proportional to the quality of training. 4 days a week of intense training are definitely better than 6 days of half-hearted trainings.

On the other hand, improvement doesn't come in continuous flow, but rather in short bursts after long periods during which you feel no progress at all, or even that your technique is regressing.
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Old 02-13-2003, 02:21 AM   #10
Olivier Uyttenh
Dojo: Aikikai gent
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Quote:
Edward Karaa (Edward) wrote:
I myself practice aikido 6 days a week, and practice kendo on Sundays. If you believe the DO theory, you have to practice every day.
I do believe in the DO theory, but I think aikido isn't always practiced inside the dojo, one can also practice aikido in every day life, outside the dojo. Aikido is more then just technique...

O.
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Old 02-13-2003, 02:46 AM   #11
Edward
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One more thought...

If your target is technical proficiency, it has been unquestionably proven that optimum training is 4 days a week. There is no significant improvement if you train more than that, in the countrary, over-training has negative effect on performance.

However, we are practicing a DO discipline, and the ultimate target is to understand the principles of the Budo and to realize oneselves. This can only be done through daily strenuous physical exercise. Monks used to do that through farming, we do it through training. Technical proficiency will come naturally, but is not sought as the main purpose.
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Old 02-13-2003, 02:59 AM   #12
Hanna B
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Quote:
Edward Karaa (Edward) wrote:
If your target is technical proficiency, it has been unquestionably proven that optimum training is 4 days a week. There is no significant improvement if you train more than that, in the countrary, over-training has negative effect on performance.
As you claim that something has been unquestionably proven, I feel the urge to ask for the evidence. Well, professional musicians practice for hours each day... is that a mistake?

If you however are talking about physical shape, weight lifting, aerobic exercise etc. then I am with you.

Regards
Hanna
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Old 02-13-2003, 03:54 AM   #13
Duarh
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I'm also wondering about the 'unquestionably proven' part. . .if it's so unquestionably proven, why do people bother at all with courses like the Yoshinkan senshusei one with 3 practice sessions a day most days of the week? Do you think those people would progress just as fast if they did 2 hours 4 times a week?

That aside, I can, as a musician, say that the law of diminishing returns works in music as well as anywhere else. The first hour (or two hours) of practice are USUALLY the most rewarding, followed by a decline in 'productivity'. Sometimes, though, as in aikido, it's when you're utterly exhausted that you understand something new.
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Old 02-13-2003, 04:20 AM   #14
Edward
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Quote:
Hanna Björk (Hanna B) wrote:
As you claim that something has been unquestionably proven, I feel the urge to ask for the evidence. Well, professional musicians practice for hours each day... is that a mistake?

If you however are talking about physical shape, weight lifting, aerobic exercise etc. then I am with you.

Regards

Hanna
Well, I assume that for a professional musician, the little extra benefit that he or she can get from this substantial additional effort is still worth it. The same goes for competitive athletes for whom a fraction of a second can decide winners and loosers. For the hobby aikidoist, it is doubtful that the sore muscles and stiff limbs and frequent injuries resulting from daily practice would be worth the little extra progress they can get from.

As for Toms' mention of the Senshusei course, I guess this course's purpose is not only technical as many Yoshinkan people would tell you, but also they want to teach the students to go beyond pain and physical exhaustion in order to build the personnality and discipline of the participants.
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Old 02-13-2003, 04:52 AM   #15
paw
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Edward,
Quote:
If your target is technical proficiency, it has been unquestionably proven that optimum training is 4 days a week. There is no significant improvement if you train more than that, in the countrary, over-training has negative effect on performance.
If you could provide the evidence for this statement, I'd be very interested it in.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 02-13-2003, 08:19 AM   #16
bob_stra
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Quote:
paul watt (paw) wrote:
Edward,



If you could provide the evidence for this statement, I'd be very interested it in.

Regards,

Paul
I'd like to see it as well

I have a study done on postal workers learning new skills for the mail room. It compares different interval and training loads vs overall accuracy after x weeks.

I will try to dig it up on the other computer - it makes for some interesting reading.
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Old 02-13-2003, 08:39 AM   #17
Edward
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Quote:
paul watt (paw) wrote:
Edward,



If you could provide the evidence for this statement, I'd be very interested it in.

Regards,

Paul
Sorry but I don't have any evidence. This subject has been discussed previously on aikiweb and several links were given, but I didn't bookmark them. Moreover, I have seen this in several books about sports and fitness, but I can't really give you any references. You have to take my word for it

Maybe someone can help?
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Old 02-13-2003, 11:21 AM   #18
jaime exley
Dojo: Aikido West
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This is a very interesting conversation!

I think that it might be helpful to make an important distinction. Time spent in Aikido class does not necessarily equate to quality practice time.

The analogy of the professional musician is probably very useful. For a musician there are two very different relationships occuring. The first is his/her relationship with the instrument. This takes hours upon hours of time spent on the most basic of exercises, scale patterns and etudes. Maybe in Aikido this kind of practice would consist of taiso, suburi and kihon type movements.

The second is the relationship with other musicians. One could call this area "ensemble skill". These are skills like being able to play in tune with other people, blending with the dynamic level of the group and being able to follow a conductor. In aikido this might relate to the relationship that we have with our partner. Perhaps the best way to develop these kind of skills is to practice with people that are better than we are and Pay Attention!! Jazz musicians have a term for players that are able to sit in with any group and sound like they've been together for years. They say these people have "Big Ears".

I have more ideas on practice, but I have to get back to work so maybe I'll check back in later.

Jaime
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Old 02-13-2003, 12:12 PM   #19
paw
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Jaime,
Quote:
I think that it might be helpful to make an important distinction. Time spent in Aikido class does not necessarily equate to quality practice time.
I agree, which is one of the chief reasons why I'm inclined not to believe the optimum train time is 4 times per week. (And I can't find any information about this....help?)
Quote:
The analogy of the professional musician is probably very useful.
I'm not so sure about that. Music has a set beginning and set ending. Physical interactions that involve martial techniques that have a set ending are called WORKS (or FIXED). Works are, by definition, phony. Given such a fundamental difference, is music a good analogy?

Regards,

Paul
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Old 02-13-2003, 01:02 PM   #20
jaime exley
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Thanks Paul.

I think I see the issue that you're getting at. I'm afraid to get too much into it here because it's off the topic of this discussion, but I will say this. I agree that Aikido and Music are very different endeavors. However, I do think that there is a lot to be learned about the nature of practice from music. Maybe that's just because I have a classical conservatory education. I'd love to continue this with you so I'll send you a private message.

On a different note, I'm realizing that I didn't make my original point very clearly. What I was trying to say was that progress in some skills can be directly linked to practice time (as long as it's quality practice time) while other skills are much more nebulous and intangible.

I tend to think that there is absolutely no substitute for good practice. That said, no amount of practice in the world can guarantee success.

Jaime
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Old 02-14-2003, 12:59 AM   #21
bob_stra
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Here's that post workers thing

http://danielson.laurentian.ca/drdno...hmidt_ch08.htm

Abt halfway down the page, under "Balancing Practice and Rest"
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Old 02-14-2003, 03:34 AM   #22
pointy
Dojo: aikido of park slope
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speaking of how much time to spend practicing in your dojo and music ...

im not a fan of his, but i think john coltrane said that there comes a certain point when one has to practice without an instrument. i.e., to practice internally

it's good to give stuff time to sink in IMO

as far as dojo-itis goes, if im on the every day schedule, one class per day is all my body can stand. two classes and everything hurts 8-|

i often do 2 anyway, ouch!
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Old 02-14-2003, 05:05 AM   #23
paw
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Evan,
Quote:
as far as dojo-itis goes, if im on the every day schedule, one class per day is all my body can stand. two classes and everything hurts
You may want to consider reading this thread

Regards,

Paul
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Old 02-14-2003, 01:00 PM   #24
pointy
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i guess by "everything hurts" i really meant "my wrists."

my right wrist was sprained pretty badly a while back and it's still healing.

i can do the excersise / cardio part of it with no problems.

it's a good read tho, thanks Paul.

evan
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Old 02-18-2003, 10:59 AM   #25
Hanna B
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Quote:
Edward Karaa (Edward) wrote:
The purpose of the practice is not to improve, but the practice itself. If you focus on the improvement alone, you will get frustrated by how slow it may (or may not) come.
A challenging view indeed! I agree that you should not concentrate too much on improvement, as this will make you frustrated. However, I'm not a zen buddhist and I have always seen continous development as a goal in aikido. A major goal, actually, easier to fulfill now than it will be in twenty years. The joy in the moment, and development over longer time.
Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote:
]Progress at what? Accumulation of techniques or technical proficiecy in a few skills?
Good question. I mainly think of improving a smaller set of techniques, not so much about memorising variants thereof.

I personally believe that the first five years or so, training dose means a lot. After that, I'm not so sure. After about four years of training, I almost stopped - practised only two classes a month, which is nothing. For one term I was still able to perform reasonably well - the second I felt I was loosing what I knew. I could not stand it, and increased to more normal training does again.

I have seen people come back to aikido after years of absence, looking at it with new eyes and quickly learning stuff they did not see while they were doing the regular-training-routine.

Two years ago, I cut down on training from 4-5 classes a week to about half. The thing is, I do not see that my progress has slowed down. I find it strange. I have previously experienced that development happened after a period of intense training, rather than during it. But this is not the case now...

We should not talk about my physical shape, however. I never practise in higher tempo these days, and am not interested in sports or jogging...
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