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Old 02-05-2003, 06:12 PM   #26
PeterR
 
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This is getting interesting. They actually have a weight room here at work where, coincidently, I held a small Aikido class last night. Members of my dojo that work in the complex get an extra albeit short session some evenings - a few basic exercises and a couple of techniques. While there, with Kevin's posts on my mind, I actually found a how to book in English. More coincidence, this is getting scary. I've been looking for something to do after work but have shied away from the machine because - well I've found weight lifting boring. However, the program in the book sounds reasonable. I don't find I need more strength for the Aikido but I could do with some for the Judo. Now let's see if I can keep my promises.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-05-2003, 07:04 PM   #27
Kevin Wilbanks
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I don't know what machine or what book, but I'm suspicious. In general, machines have much less benefits and more injury potential than free weight and bodyweight exercises.

If you want a basic starter plan, my advice is to choose one pushing move, one pulling move, one squatting move, and one hamstring/low back move, and stick with this basic 4 exercise routine for quite a while.

Pulls: Pullups, pulldowns, BB Row, body row, cable row

Pushes: Overhead press, Pushups, Dips, DB Bench Press variation

Squat: Back squat, front squat, deadlift variation

Ham/LB: Romanian deadlift, hyperextension, glute-ham raise

Start with two worksets of each, somewhere between 5 and 12 reps per set, about 1 rep shy of the point where you would fail to complete a rep. Do 2 warmup sets prior to the worksets, the first at about half workset weight and the second at about 3/4ths. Do this twice per week.

Keep a written log and make sure you are able to add a rep to each exercise almost every workout. If you can't, something is wrong, and you need to set about diagnosing why you are not getting stronger. If you decide to start training lower reps for maximal strength, or push closer to failure, adjustments in recovery time may be necessary. This basic plan is just a reasonable hypertrophy/strength starting point.

Aside from instruction in exercise form, there's all the beginner's book you need right there. You can get some reasonable idea of how to do many exercises on ExRx.net: http://www.exrx.net/Lists/Directory.html

I disagree with the way they taxonomize and list muscle emphasis, to some extent, and am skeptical about the safety of some exercises and advice thereon, but it has good images, and generally good advice.

Last edited by Kevin Wilbanks : 02-05-2003 at 07:08 PM.
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Old 02-05-2003, 08:22 PM   #28
Gregory King
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I have to say that in the past couple of weeks I have returned to weights as a means to decrease body fat, increase body strength and to speed up the process of recovery from a broken limb. In the short term I have lost weight, become more flexible, more alert, more energetic, happier and more positive in general. Weights have been an excellent supplement to my Aikido training due to all previous factors but probably have benifited me most by increasing my confidence to take ukemi and push through some of the more difficult techniques where my injuries have retarded my progress. Let's face it exercise is good for you it makes you feel great and whichever type of excersice you follow it is likely to benifit you, it's just a matter of degrees in how much it benifits your Aikido.

Greg
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Old 02-05-2003, 08:24 PM   #29
otto
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Thumbs down as seen on TV

Quote:
As the weeks go by, I'll gradually add more and more minutes to my HIIT training, until finally, at the end of week 8, I'll be doing 15 minutes nonstop. By that time, the lines between my abs will be so deep I'll have to periodically clean the lint out with a Q-tip. (So that's where I dropped my car keys!)
Well thats my KIND of results!

Now seriously , what you big guys think bout this program for starters?

http://www.musclemedia.com/training/hiit.asp

Looks like something i could do even in my office.

Plus KI!

"Perfection is a Process"
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Old 02-05-2003, 09:02 PM   #30
Erik
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Re: as seen on TV

Ottoniel,

I don't have any gripes with what's written there.

I kind of have mixed feelings on the Phillip's brothers and the whole BFL gig. The basic program is decent and I think much of their stuff is actually fairly sound in the sense that it's good basics. So no real gripes with their programs.

Where I differ with them is in two areas. I think the BFL program is overhyped in that you get all of those before and after pictures which are extreme examples. Most people will never see those kind of results, or even close. Plus, I'm pretty certain that very few of them even follow the 12 week program.

Secondly, Bill Phillips (I'm not certain about Shaun) makes his money selling supplements. While the BFL program is light on directly promoting the supplements, the fact is, they've gotten rich selling snake oil which is what 99.9% of supplements are.

Oh well, you guys know how I feel about ki, just imagine that multiplied by a few factors and you get how I feel about supplements in the fitness game.

By the way, I'm not saying this should detract from the basic program, hell I even read their magazine, just that it's one of those things which has a good and bad side.
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Old 02-05-2003, 09:40 PM   #31
Kevin Wilbanks
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Body for Life is just standard bodybuilding info packaged for people that are afraid of the freaks on the covers of muscle magazines. There's nothing wrong with it, but realize that it is largely a hype and marketing machine, as Erik says. Also keep in mind that it is strictly appearance-oriented bodybuilding. Weight training and endurance training for general health and injury resistance can be substantially simpler in many ways, but is a little different in character.

I still prefer HIIT protocols with complete rest between intervals and rotating exercises. The point is hitting each interval as hard as you can. Jogging between intervals or extensive warmups will only detract from that intensity.
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Old 02-05-2003, 10:09 PM   #32
PeterR
 
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How much time commitment are you talking about Kevin. My goal is to improve my Aikido and somehow I get the feeling that to do what you are talking about right I would have to cut back on what I love best. That would of course be counter productive as at this point I still think my Aikido would improve more by just doing more Aikido.

Weight training two maybe three times a week on days when I do not do intensive Aikido or Judo training might work but the dody needs to rest does it not?

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-05-2003, 10:32 PM   #33
Kevin Wilbanks
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Perhaps it doesn't read clearly, but I advocated a 4 exercise workout, twice per week, with 2 worksets and 2 warmup sets per exercise. It doesn't get much more minimal than this. If you do it straight up with a three minute rest between worksets, and something like one minute between warmup sets, you're looking at two 45 minute sessions per week. Read carefully. Those lists are options - pick one of each type of movement and stick with it.

As far as interference with other training and rest, you wouldn't want to do a strength workout in this rep range much less frequently than 2 times per week. If you drop to really heavy 1-3 rep work, once a week is in the ballpark, but you're looking at mostly neurological adaptations, which are highly specific to the particular exercise, and hence less useful for martial arts. Staying 1-2 reps away from concentric failure and above 5 reps in worksets is the best way to avoid overloading your recovery abilities.

Last edited by Kevin Wilbanks : 02-05-2003 at 10:41 PM.
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Old 02-05-2003, 10:43 PM   #34
PeterR
 
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So you did - sorry. I got confused by other posts and some of the other web sites I was pointed to.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-05-2003, 10:54 PM   #35
Kevin Wilbanks
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My whole focus as a trainer is to make things as simple and minimal as possible. My own training doesn't get much more complex than what I outlined above, and I don't expect it to ever get very baroque. Many people, including me, are turned off by excessive complexity and anal-retentiveness in workout programs. I think it is unnecessary for all but seriously competitive athletes and my mission is to deliver the info and the workouts to prove it. Just because the science and planning behind training is complex doesn't mean the training itself has to be. In my view, the simpler and more straightforward the program, the more likely the trainee is to understand how and why it works and successfully adapt it to themselves as an individual. The downfall of most cookie-cutter approaches is that they give you an arbitrary program and it either works or not, but you emerge none the richer in knowledge. My idea is to give trainees the tools to make their own routines and find out real facts about their own idiosyncracies, thus mitigating the need for trainers and susceptibility to marketeers.
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Old 02-06-2003, 06:37 AM   #36
Michael Neal
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Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
Those instructions for HIIT are okay, but many of the claims they are making are unfounded. One does not need to keep moving during rest periods to remove wastes from the system. Given the extent of warmup, rest periods, and 'recovery under stress' principle they advocate, what they have is less of an HIIT workout than an aerobic interval workout, and the complexity of cycling the lengths of work and rest are probably not very relevant.

If you want to challenge your anaerobic endurance more, you need to take complete rest between intervals and make the periods long enough to let your heartrate drop down and short-term energy systems to recharge. Otherwise, you compound fatigue and end up with much less intense intervals and hence less anaerobic/high intensity benefits. I also think the same goes for using the same exercise for each consecutive interval. By always alternating/rotating between at least 2 different activities, you can minimize the extent to which local muscle fatigue will detract from overall intensity.

There is no reason why a couple minutes of dynamic limb movement a couple of half-intensity intervals won't serve as an adequate warmup, and the same for a cool down. I think doing a full 15-20 minutes of continuous aerobics beforehand is a mistake that lessens the value of the HIIT work. Better to do the continuous aerobics during a different session, or after the intervals.
What two alternating/rotating activities do you recommend (I don't have any equipment other than freeweights) and for how long should I do the activity(s) before resting in between?
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Old 02-06-2003, 06:58 AM   #37
Kevin Wilbanks
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Try switching between rope jumping (beaded rope <$10) and fast running, if you're already comfortable with fast running. I normally don't recommend sprinting, as it requires good hamstring flexibility and skill to avoid injury. For running intervals, I never go 100%, and I usually tack on a 10 second ramp up/ramp down onto each interval, for safety.

I usually make the work intervals about 30 seconds, and the rest intervals about 30 seconds.

For even more anaerobic work, and more intense intervals, you could try waiting longer between. Olympic lifters do 'interval' training, waiting 3-5 minutes between lifts for near-complete recharge of short-term energy systems. There are no rules, but if you intervals go longer than a minute or rest intervals go down below 15 seconds, you'll be doing something more on the aerobic spectrum.
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Old 02-06-2003, 07:25 AM   #38
Kevin Wilbanks
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Sprinting a bicycle up a steep hill in a medium gear makes a great interval. Alternating that with rope jumping at the top of the hill is the most intense setup I've ever used. It felt like my entire trachea and lungs had been sand-blasted afterwards.

A good in-dojo aikido specific setup would be rope-jumping alternating with rapid forward rolls back and forth.

Use your imagination. Anything that's safe, uses most of the body, and you can do fast is fair game. Running stairs is another good one.

Anyone who has any significant cardio risk factors should be careful though - see your doctor, get a stress test done, etc... Out of shape types should start with 5 or 6 moderate intensity intervals and gradually increase. Also if one is overweight, be sure to do a long mellow cool-down to avoid blood-pooling.
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Old 02-06-2003, 07:57 AM   #39
otto
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Running Stairs

hi All

Kevin

That does sounds interesting , I happen to live in a 2 story building , how could i mix running stairs there with the examples of pulling , pushing , Ham/LB and Squat sets?

Are weights a must with Squats in your opinion? I would have to make this either on early morning or late at night..wich one would you recommend?

Also you adviced to start with 2 sets of 5-12 reps per each excersice choosen , plus 2 sets of warmups...that would make a total of 20-48 reps on each , or do you advice to lower reps count on warm ups?.

Finally ,lets say i choose the pushups as the push excercise , should the warmups be done slow and easy and the rest of the sets as fast as i can?..how about time to rest between sets , think you mentioned to let the body recover fully before starting again , did i get it right?

BTW the ExRx site is excellent.

Quote:
Erik Haselhofer wrote:
Oh well, you guys know how I feel about ki....
I dont really , and would like to hear any comments you have on this rather "shadowy" issue Erik , feel free to send me an email about this if you like.

Thanks ALL

Plus KI!

Last edited by otto : 02-06-2003 at 08:00 AM.

"Perfection is a Process"
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Old 02-06-2003, 08:15 AM   #40
Jonathan Lewis
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Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
In general, machines have much less benefits and more injury potential than free weight and bodyweight exercises.
Or, to paraphrase an author of a weight training book...

Machines are great in that they can "be melted down into something heavy and therefore usefull"

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Old 02-06-2003, 08:42 AM   #41
Michael Neal
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Thanks Kevin, I will try some of those suggestions with the HIIT. Do you see any problems with my weight training that I listed before?

Last edited by Michael Neal : 02-06-2003 at 08:46 AM.
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Old 02-07-2003, 10:47 AM   #42
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: Running Stairs

That does sounds interesting , I happen to live in a 2 story building , how could i mix running stairs there with the examples of pulling , pushing , Ham/LB and Squat sets?

****** I wouldn't mix up HIIT with resistance training in the same workout unless you are really pressed for time. You'll end up short changing yourself on both.

****

Are weights a must with Squats in your opinion? I would have to make this either on early morning or late at night..wich one would you recommend?

****** I think everyone should do weighted squats or parallel grip deadlifts, as the benefits are numerous and varied. Without added weight, one can only develop a minimal level of absolute strength. Body weight is just too low in relation to squatting strength potential. However, it is absolutely vital to do them properly and safely - this means getting knowledgeable feedback/instruction on proper form and using a safe training equipment setup. The safest, cheapest home option is to buy one of these - http://www.newyorkbarbells.com/im-0022shr.html

- and an Olympic weight set. These plus a pullup bar and a belt to hang weight from the waist is pretty near all one need ever own.

****

Also you adviced to start with 2 sets of 5-12 reps per each excersice choosen , plus 2 sets of warmups...that would make a total of 20-48 reps on each , or do you advice to lower reps count on warm ups?.

****** Don't worry about the math. Do about as many reps on warmup as work sets.

***

Finally ,lets say i choose the pushups as the push excercise , should the warmups be done slow and easy and the rest of the sets as fast as i can?..how about time to rest between sets , think you mentioned to let the body recover fully before starting again , did i get it right?

****** Do all your reps at a comfortable, controlled pace, with proper form of most importance. Save ballistic work for later. This is about laying the foundations. Warmup sets for pushups will probably pivot on your knees to start. I advocate a very particular form on pushups where one holds the scapulae stable - they are about as hard as bodyweight dips this way. Unfortunately, it is difficult to teach via email.

****



BTW the ExRx site is excellent.

I dont really , and would like to hear any comments you have on this rather "shadowy" issue Erik , feel free to send me an email about this if you like.

Thanks ALL

Plus KI![/quote]
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Old 02-07-2003, 10:57 AM   #43
Kevin Wilbanks
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Micheal,

Your workout has too many piddly bodybuilding isolation exercises in it for my taste. Even if the goal is drug-free bodybuilding, you would still be better off with fewer exercises and more focus on core movements. Exercises like crunches and forearm curls are pure vanity moves and not even that useful for such. Try the workout I outlined above. If you want to do more, do three worksets or choose 2 pulls and 2 pushes. I also suggest looking into the above-referenced parallel grip deadlift/"squatlift" bar.

BTW, if you have a hard floor and a brick wall somewhere, there are loads of med ball exercises you can do with a bouncing med ball.
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Old 02-07-2003, 02:57 PM   #44
KevinK
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Kevin Wilbanks has a lot of solid information. I used to incorporate a lot of weight training in with my Aikido. The problem I always came across was not bulking up nor loss of flexability. It was muscle memory. My muscles would remember the resistance training and momentarily fight against an attack instead of moving with it. It was as if uke was a dumbell (pardon the pun). I have changed from isolation exercises to group exercises and it aleviated most of the issues.

YMMV

KevinK
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Old 02-07-2003, 05:53 PM   #45
Erik
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Re: Running Stairs

Quote:
Ottoniel Ojeda (otto) wrote:
I dont really , and would like to hear any comments you have on this rather "shadowy" issue Erik , feel free to send me an email about this if you like.
Shadowy?

Not at all.

Ki is easy.

It doesn't exist.

A topic for another thread though.
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Old 02-08-2003, 02:17 AM   #46
Andrew Wilson
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Morihei definatly looked like he worked out all the time. In fact, I have never seen anyone with a better body in my life.

/end sarcasm

Isn't the point that this doesn't take much strength and energy? If you want to work out, GREAT! but personally, I do it for its own merits not for aikido's benifits.

"The wise man, after learning something new, is afraid to learn anything more until he has put his first lesson into practice." - Tzu Lu
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Old 02-08-2003, 02:46 AM   #47
PeterR
 
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Andrew - take a look at some of the earlier pictures - the man was a rock.

He trained to be a fighter - it was the ability to project that image that got him noticed by several high ranking military people, other major Budoka, and had a lot to do with his position in Omotokyo. Strength training was part of it.

Generally I agree with you though - hence some of my earlier posts on this thread. Still if you take a look at young well and intensely trained Aikidoists they have superb bodies. If you can't train that intensely - perhaps the weight lifting has some merit.
Quote:
Andrew Wilson wrote:
Morihei definatly looked like he worked out all the time. In fact, I have never seen anyone with a better body in my life.

/end sarcasm

Isn't the point that this doesn't take much strength and energy? If you want to work out, GREAT! but personally, I do it for its own merits not for aikido's benifits.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-08-2003, 07:57 AM   #48
Andrew Wilson
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Peter,

Didn't morihei once say that he didn't truly understand/appreciate aikido till he lost his strength? I can't remember but I heard about something to that degree in my readings.

In my very limited experiance, I have found that even the most out of shape people can be really great aikidoka. The only thing my personal physical abilities have really helped is with the knowledge that I could run away from them if we ever got into a fight

I am not saying there are no advantages to lifting and being in shape. but to quote a sempai. "hmm... your in shape. thats nice. not needed, but nice"

"The wise man, after learning something new, is afraid to learn anything more until he has put his first lesson into practice." - Tzu Lu
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Old 02-08-2003, 03:04 PM   #49
Michael Neal
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Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
Micheal,

Your workout has too many piddly bodybuilding isolation exercises in it for my taste. Even if the goal is drug-free bodybuilding, you would still be better off with fewer exercises and more focus on core movements. Exercises like crunches and forearm curls are pure vanity moves and not even that useful for such. Try the workout I outlined above. If you want to do more, do three worksets or choose 2 pulls and 2 pushes. I also suggest looking into the above-referenced parallel grip deadlift/"squatlift" bar.

BTW, if you have a hard floor and a brick wall somewhere, there are loads of med ball exercises you can do with a bouncing med ball.
Thanks, I will try it out.
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Old 02-08-2003, 03:10 PM   #50
otto
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Thumbs down thanks a lot

To you all for your generous insights and shares..

On a final note guys , and specially from workout guru Mr.Wilbanks , i would like to hear your general recomendations and advice on keeping healthy Knees , because i've started to notice a slight craking everytime i crouch or bend a little.

Que esten todos muy bien!

Plus KI!

"Perfection is a Process"
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