Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-25-2003, 03:53 PM   #1
Johnny Chiutten
Location: Singapore
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 18
Offline
A new approach to training

In most Martial art schools, you are taught from the outside-in. We are taught a set of forms, movement to do against such attack.Basically you are given a choreographed move to deal with every kind of attack. So it stresses form over function. Its kind of like a Jazz musician learning the scales in music.

After years of dedication, hard work of this external practice you are to achieve a state of mind body unity, balance,sensitivity and relaxation. Yes this is all achievable, and many traditionally trained Martial artists are superb fighters. But this takes decades to achieve.

In the meanwhile combat is not ballet, the attacker is not going to Tango with you.
If Techniques are not intergrated subconsciously and absorbed, you are left with hundreds of moves waiting for hundreds of matching attacks. When the spit hits the fan will you pick the right one? the last thing you want to do is get caught in this neural traffic jam.

WHY NOT train from the inside-out? The principles of combat which are loosenes (relaxation in motion) balance, body & mind unity sensitivity and force. By force i dont mean external force.
These principles must be applied at the same time and it is easier to apply than stressing on techniques to apply to many different situations.

Its like you train like a Jazz musician, improvising on a theme. Letting it flow with the rhythm and energy of the music. Not even the musician will know where the song is going or how it will get there. Yet there is method to the madness. the Jazz player who is more relaxed, balanced with the instrument, sensitive to the flow of notes and puts the whole body and soul to the groove will make the better music.

Learning just the forms and techniques is like someone practicing only the scales and will never be able to Jam with confidence.

Personally I know of only 3 civilian schools which take this different but effective way to train. These priciples will greatly enhance your training in your chosen form of martial arts.

Sincerely,

Johnny
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2003, 12:35 AM   #2
bob_stra
Location: Australia
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 641
Australia
Offline
Re: A new approach to training

And to think, you're only 120 + yrs late with that suggestion ;-)
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2003, 01:22 AM   #3
Kelly Allen
Dojo: Friends Dojo
Location: Winnipeg
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 190
Offline
That is personally how I train, and is probably the main reason why I seem to be advancing faster than I expected. However, without the repititions of practice you will never develope. You can't have one without the other. I think one of the ways to help train in the inside out style you refer to is to read as many books, and watch as many videos you can on Aikido. It really steers you in the right direction for what to strive for when your training on the mat.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2003, 01:11 PM   #4
chadsieger
Dojo: Minh Sensei
Location: Allentown, PA
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 107
Offline
That is an excellent observation Johnny. Practitioners of Tai Chi have been training internally for millennia.

, when practiced correctly, should stress both. Did Ueshiba have internal power? Yes. Did Ueshiba have technique? Yes. Will it take a while before the internal overtakes the external? Most certainly. That's why it's nice to work on both, initially giving equal attention as they go hand-in-hand before melding into one.

Regards,

Sieger

Heaven is right where you are standing, and that is exactly the place to train-
M. Ueshiba
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2003, 02:21 PM   #5
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,934
Offline
Re: A new approach to training

Quote:
Johnny Chiutten wrote:
In most Martial art schools, you are taught from the outside-in. We are taught a set of forms, movement to do against such attack.(SNIP) WHY NOT train from the inside-out?

Sincerely,

Johnny
Hi, Johnny. AFAIK, aikido is considered an internal martial art, and many dojo DO train both ways simultaneously. The Ki Society and offshoots certainly are explicit about this. The dojo in which I train is not Ki Society, and often does not use the word ki explicitly (depends on the instructor), but it has us spend as much time on centering, balancing, blending AND exploring what that feels like, as we do on tai sabaki or the mechanics of ikkyo.

cheers

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2003, 05:43 PM   #6
Johnny Chiutten
Location: Singapore
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 18
Offline
Re: Re: A new approach to training

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich (bob_stra) wrote:
And to think, you're only 120 + yrs late with that suggestion ;-)
Thanks Bob. If you re-read paragraph 2 and 3 my point is that it is useless to practice many forms for hundreds of different attacks as most pepole would freeze with the adrenalin surge and will have a neural traffic jam trying to do a particular move for a particular attack under real situations.

This is what most Martial arts school do.

Stressing training the principles as outlined instead fo many forms will free you of this jam and will make you move in a random,no form instinctive way as Masters do.

This is a speeded up learning process, which if practiced diligently will give results in 3-5 yrs instead of 20-30yrs.

There is a guy in Australia teaching this Bob. "Real internal power." I'm happy to give you his contact number if you are interested. Its a real eye opener.

Sincerely, Johnny
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2003, 06:05 PM   #7
Johnny Chiutten
Location: Singapore
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 18
Offline
Re: Re: A new approach to training

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote:
Hi, Johnny. AFAIK, aikido is considered an internal martial art, and many dojo DO train both ways simultaneously. The Ki Society and offshoots certainly are explicit about this. The dojo in which I train is not Ki Society, and often does not use the word ki explicitly (depends on the instructor), but it has us spend as much time on centering, balancing, blending AND exploring what that feels like, as we do on tai sabaki or the mechanics of ikkyo.

cheers
Thankyou Janet.

I'm very familiar with Ki Society as I have trained with them Many years ago for a consiredable amount of time.It was very good but it lacked the training for acquiring real explosive internal force. Without this Martial art is not complete. Its like form without substance.

Sincerely, Johnny
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2003, 08:56 PM   #8
jk
Location: Indonesia
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 245
Offline
OK Johnny,

Which system/style/school are you pushing? And how much will it cost us?

I don't think the majority of people in these forums need to be reminded that a few simple things/principles, practiced incessantly and executed well, tend to be more useful than an agglomeration of a hundred half-assed, half-remembered techniques... Kinda like the Tampa Bay Bucanneers defense and their manly pewter pants...

Regards,
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2003, 11:22 PM   #9
Abasan
Dojo: Aiki Shoshinkan, Aiki Kenkyukai
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 813
Malaysia
Offline
Johnny, that guy in Australia isn't montague is he by any chance? (spelling)

Also... how bout the really internal stuff like yoga... as they have practiced coordinating the mind and body and also developing their chakras/meridian ki flows... would they instinctively be able to defend themselves like the masters? Actually, i doubt it... but i'm curious about what you think.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2003, 04:57 PM   #10
Johnny Chiutten
Location: Singapore
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 18
Offline
Quote:
ahmad abas (Abasan) wrote:
Johnny, that guy in Australia isn't montague is he by any chance? (spelling)

Also... how bout the really internal stuff like yoga... as they have practiced coordinating the mind and body and also developing their chakras/meridian ki flows... would they instinctively be able to defend themselves like the masters? Actually, i doubt it... but i'm curious about what you think.
Hi Ahmad No its not Earl Montague. The guy is actually Chinese. His name is Master Yang Zhen Hua. He teaches a very small class and doesnt advertise.

Regarding to yoga or any form of internal works like Qi Gong etc. There are 3 types Qi development practices. For personal health, Martial and Medical. A good system will give you these 3 wholistically, but its up to the individual's training what he/she wants specialise in.

A system like yoga will give you excelllent personal health but will not give you the method and conditioning to be able to project your internal force (Jing in Chinese)for martial applications
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2003, 08:51 PM   #11
bob_stra
Location: Australia
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 641
Australia
Offline
Re: Re: Re: A new approach to training

Quote:
Johnny Chiutten wrote:
Thanks Bob. If you re-read paragraph 2 and 3 my point is that it is useless to practice many forms for hundreds of different attacks as most pepole would freeze with the adrenalin surge and will have a neural traffic jam trying to do a particular move for a particular attack under real situations.
Well Johnny, I think you missed the cleverly disguised point (2003-121=1882. Ie: The yr the kodokan was founded) ;-)

What you speak of is not a new idea IME. For example, the folks over at http://www.amerross.com/ have been popularizing this idea in recent memory.

Hell, I have a human movement friend who I teaches from the basis of body awareness, not specific situations. I even have footage of Polish police training some aspects of what you suggest. Many other examples etc etc etc

Still, drop me a msg abt the Autralian guy. If he's anywhere close by to me, I may pop in for a visit. There are always new things to be learnt, not matter where you learn them from ;-)
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2003, 01:50 AM   #12
Johnny Chiutten
Location: Singapore
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 18
Offline
Re: Re: Re: Re: A new approach to training

Bob I'll give you a website number

www.invisiblemaster.com
Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich (bob_stra) wrote:
Well Johnny, I think you missed the cleverly disguised point (2003-121=1882. Ie: The yr the kodokan was founded) ;-)

What you speak of is not a new idea IME. For example, the folks over at http://www.amerross.com/ have been popularizing this idea in recent memory.

Hell, I have a human movement friend who I teaches from the basis of body awareness, not specific situations. I even have footage of Polish police training some aspects of what you suggest. Many other examples etc etc etc

Still, drop me a msg abt the Autralian guy. If he's anywhere close by to me, I may pop in for a visit. There are always new things to be learnt, not matter where you learn them from ;-)
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2003, 02:56 AM   #13
bob_stra
Location: Australia
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 641
Australia
Offline
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A new approach to training

Quote:
Johnny Chiutten wrote:
Bob I'll give you a website number

www.invisiblemaster.com
Thank you
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Training, Training, & More Training? L-I-V-I-N-G Anonymous 6 01-13-2006 11:37 PM
Training at Hombu - is it worth it? Josh Reyer General 22 12-27-2005 01:22 PM
Training while pregnant WuMarci Training 9 05-07-2005 11:13 AM
Training Jodo alongside Aikido[followup] Fred26 General 1 04-04-2005 05:29 AM
Training Dilemma Anonymous Anonymous 27 07-21-2004 02:48 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:00 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate