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Old 11-22-2004, 07:52 PM   #201
Zato Ichi
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
Yeah, I too demand my money back for all the time and effort wasted. I wanna kick some a#s to know that I am a tough guy. Anybody wanna meet me at the soccer field during recess? Oh sorry I gotta ask my mommy first, sorry.
Ah... this reminds me of a song....
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Stoke 9 wrote:
How many people wanna kick some ass?
I do! I do!
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Old 11-23-2004, 03:43 AM   #202
rachel
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Boy, what an old thread.
Well, with such an offensively inccorect title, how could this thread die?
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Old 02-28-2005, 09:38 AM   #203
Justin Gaar
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Ki Symbol Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Why am I always the last to reply to a good thread? Anyway
Quote:
First off, I am a very nice guy. Also, my whole reason for sticking around is that no one has been willing to admit that aikido has limitations.
Maybe the reason no-one will admit it because it's not true. Aikido has ZERO limitations to its applications in real life. It appears that in your haste to create a good thread to feed your ego, you neglected to put ANY thought into what the replies from dedicated aikido-kai would be.
Sayonara,
Justin Gaar
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Old 02-28-2005, 11:18 PM   #204
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I know this thread has been articulated by people more understanding than myself...and probably been done to death, but this topic is interesting to me so I'll write my thoughts anyway.
To the fellow who started this threat let me first say there are a million forms of "Aikido." You need to realize there's more to a thing than just a name. I've been to a few different Aikidojo and none of them were quite the same, despite using the same names for similar movements.
Aikido has many practical lessons. How to fall and not get hurt is a pretty darn usefull thing, for starters. I've trained with an eastern European judoka who almost went to the olympics and who nearly tore my arm off but for my adequate ukemi. I had a roomate who studied traditional Muy Thai in addition to being a bit of a brawler (by the way, kick-boxers do a LOT more than just kick, trust me) who loved to try and use submission holds on me. Funny thing is he rarely got them to work. What does this all mean? Nothing. The name of your chosen martial art means jack squat. What matters most is how good your training is, and how good you are as a student (ie-how you apply yourself).
Regarding strikes and submission holds: atemi is a strike; if I slip your punch and strike you in the floating ribs, you'll feel it, trust me; if you grab me by the leg I might just land on you with my knee. What matters is who knows how to use their body best, not what style you study. Style means almost nothing.
Maybe it's true most Aikidoka will never protect themselves from an attacker and maybe it's not. I don't know most Aikidoka, but I know what I'm capable of and if someone attacks me, it's quite possible it will be more correct to say my lack of ability is what will hurt them, not what style I train in.
Take care,
Matt
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Old 03-28-2005, 05:33 PM   #205
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Re: Aikido...

Quote:
Christopher Wilson wrote:
Hey Joe,
Where did you here that in no form of Aikido do practitioners grapple or strike? That is inaccurate. I happen to have practiced one or two things in my short life(see profile) and can tell you that Aikido can be integrated into real fights just as any other art. Not all Aikidoka believe that Aikido is the one and only, just like you´d likely take a severe beating from a friend and me if you used only BJJ. At a high enough level, perhaps Aikido can be considered complete because what you see happen in NHB would theoretically not happen were you skilled enough in Aikido, at least not in the way featured on TV. Your joints move the same direction no matter what "style" you´re in. Therefore you could use Aikido from the floor, standing, sitting, or otherwise. Maybe you shouldn´t judge a book by it´s cover.
My two bits.
At your service,
Christopher
I've got the same question. Have you never heard of rondori (spelling?)?

Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment.
-Barry LePatner
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Old 03-29-2005, 06:56 AM   #206
Michael Neal
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

why does this topic keep getting ressurected?
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Old 03-29-2005, 08:58 AM   #207
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
why does this topic keep getting ressurected?
Tell me about it!
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Old 03-30-2005, 07:14 PM   #208
Man of Aiki
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Joeysola saw two aikido guys lose fights in the UFC? And from this he assumes it won't work in a real fight?

Combat sports and real fighting are not the same thing.

I once looked into competing in a local NHB event and discovered that about half the Aikido techs. I know would be considered illegal. Sankyo, for instance, with it's manipulation of the hand would be illegal in almost all NHB events, including UFC. Same with Nikkyo.

Secondly, you fight like you train. Many Aikido schools do not train in a manner in which uke attacks nage balls to the wall, full force and full speed and full intent for more than 10 or 15 seconds.

I did see one of the fights that JoeySola alludes to, the one in which the black Aididokist was quickly dispatched. From what I saw of him, I sincerely doubt this Aikidoka was even Dan level. He looked to be about a 2nd or 3rd Kyu.

Apparently, he had never trained to deal with somebody like the slim, smaller grappler that faced him, who simply charged him, shot in low, wrapped up his legs, took him down, got on top and pounded him five or six times on the back of the head until he tapped out.

Some Aikido schools put a lot of emphasis on teaching their students to counter leg shoots and low tackles and some don't. I've seen some schools where they don't even teach students to deal with anything other than a simple low front kick.

And I've seen some that teach student's to deal with front kicks, side kicks, spinning kicks, low kicks, high kicks, etc.

Different school emphasize different things.

But to characterize an entire art as 'not working' in a 'real fight' because you watched a sport fight where a low-level student was quickly overwhelmed makes no sense. As far as I can tell, while some very high ranked wrestlers and Judo and Juijitsu students have competed in NHB, there is no record of a 3rd or 4th Dan Aikido student appearing in one of these things.

That could be for two reasons:

Aikido's philosophy discourages competition.

And Aikido cannot safely be used full force on an untrained person without risk of serious injury.Aikido involves full force throws and manipulation of joints that are dangerous and can easily kill or maim if the technique is received incorrectly.

By that, I mean even if a highly ranked Aikdioka compteted in one of these sporting events, and ended up facing a highly ranked wrestler, the wrestler still has no training on how to take an irimi-nage fall safely. He does not know how to take a kotegaeshi throw safely. If he rushes the Aikidoka and gets thrown with a powerful kokyu nage breath throw, there is no guarantee he will land safely.

Over half of the time in the first year or so of Aikdio training involves just learning to take the techniques safely. Do you realize how many serious injuries there would be in Aikido schools across this country if the first time a student stepped on the mat, even one with kickboxing, muay thai, or juijitsu experience, and the instructor had him attack at full speed, full force, and threw him full speed and full force?

So an Aikidoka competing in a NHB event would realize right away that he cannot apply Aikdio full force to his untrained opponent. So many throws he can do are of only limited value.

What's left? Most throws aren't a good idea, what's left? Well, the control holds! Joint locks! Only the Aikidoka remembers he can't use any finger grabs or joint manipulations that involve bending or twisting the hand. So if the opponent rushes him, he can't simply reach out and bend some fingers back and take the opponent to his knees and then pin him.

Now if the Aikidoka simply doesn't care about the safety or the well-being of his opponent, he could use a full force Irimi- Nage or a Shiho-Nage on his opponent. The Aikidoka could think, hey, if he lands on his head or breaks his leg, that's his problem! But by the time a student reaches 3rd or 4th Dan level, is he going to be the kind of person that doesn't care about his opponent? I think not.

The above helps to explain why I think no advanced Aikido student has ever appeared in a NHB event. Not to say that one never will. But if one ever does, I'm sure he will be well aware of the limitations he faces.

manofaiki
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Old 03-30-2005, 07:44 PM   #209
Morpheus
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
why does this topic keep getting ressurected?
That's because non-Aikidoka trolls keep bringing it back. It makes them feel more secure in whatever system they study even though the opinion is just that, an opinion and it's based on ignorance.

The vast majority of the time it's from people who are in striking systems and want to be Bruce Lee, or Van Damme, or some other movie star.

Qasim

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"If the enemy thinks of the mountains, attack like the sea; and if he thinks of the sea, attack like the mountains. - Miyamoto Musashi - 1584 - 1645
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Old 03-30-2005, 08:05 PM   #210
Hardware
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I think a practitioner of any particular art or style, if entering a "NHB" event, would fair better if they simply fight without trying to use specific techniques from their art.

They can use what they've learned, but it isn't likely that their opponent will cooperate by replicating scenarios that they've trained for back in their home dojo.

That said, a practitioner of Aikido will probably have to adapt more than people trained in some other arts (i.e. Thai boxing).

A few months ago, a black belt in...I think... Kenpo visited our dojo for practice. Following the practice, this guest was invited to show us all some of the techniques from his style.

One of the members of our dojo (a 5th kyu at the time - and someone who, incidentally isn't very gifted or coordinated) acted as uke. Coming from a more..."confrontational" style than Aikido, the guest started to get a little rough and our uke resisted back.

They sort of got into a friendly competition and our 5th kyu basically was able to control the Kenpo black belt. Granted, this wasn't all out fighting with strikes to the face, etc, but I was pleasantly surprised at how well the Aikido techniques worked in the face of resistence, from someone with presumably much more training in a different art.
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Old 03-30-2005, 08:10 PM   #211
Chris Birke
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

The reason this keeps coming up is because people keep believing this:

"By that, I mean even if a highly ranked Aikdioka compteted in one of these sporting events, and ended up facing a highly ranked wrestler, the wrestler still has no training on how to take an irimi-nage fall safely. He does not know how to take a kotegaeshi throw safely. If he rushes the Aikidoka and gets thrown with a powerful kokyu nage breath throw, there is no guarantee he will land safely.

Over half of the time in the first year or so of Aikdio training involves just learning to take the techniques safely. Do you realize how many serious injuries there would be in Aikido schools across this country if the first time a student stepped on the mat, even one with kickboxing, muay thai, or juijitsu experience, and the instructor had him attack at full speed, full force, and threw him full speed and full force?

So an Aikidoka competing in a NHB event would realize right away that he cannot apply Aikdio full force to his untrained opponent. So many throws he can do are of only limited value. "

On a seperate note, I wish this were always true, but it isn't:
"But by the time a student reaches 3rd or 4th Dan level, is he going to be the kind of person that doesn't care about his opponent? I think not. "

Also, although small joint manipulations are illegal (fingerlocks, toe locks), wrist manipulations are fair game. The reason you so rarely see them in UFC is because they are easy to defend. This is the same reason you see very few standing arm bars.

I have actually seen a few in grappling and nhb fights (and even gotten a few in rolling) but they are rare.

There is actually a depth to the argument here.

If nikkyo doesn't work in ufc, will it work on the street? People have found that yes, very often it will, despite the fact that it's laughable against a cage fighter in a cage. Why is this?

In fact, you can often even no touch throw people on the street (or at least get them to fall down without touching them... you can debate what a true no touch throw is on that other thread). Again, that doesn't quite work the same against a trained and prepped duelist.

etc.

It's a very valid thread and that's the reason it keeps coming up.

Its just too crowded with ego and ignorance to ever be very useful. - I'd rather see it rehashed in a new thread.
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Old 03-30-2005, 08:13 PM   #212
Hardware
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Brian Cates wrote:
...Aikido's philosophy discourages competition.

And Aikido cannot safely be used full force on an untrained person without risk of serious injury.Aikido involves full force throws and manipulation of joints that are dangerous and can easily kill or maim if the technique is received incorrectly...
Very good points. Domo Arigato!
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Old 03-30-2005, 08:43 PM   #213
Man of Aiki
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Howard Dyke;

Domo Arigato right back 'atcha, pal!

Man of Aiki
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Old 03-31-2005, 11:16 AM   #214
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I use aikido principles all the time in NHB training and fighting. Even some techniques. But to define one's self by a "style" or technique, especially if it is a "DO" is really pointless.

Those that say it does not work do not understand the spectrum (breadth and depth) of the art, equally, I believe you will also find that most do not also understand NHB type fighting as well.

Makes for good conversation, but I always wonder if people are sincerely looking to explore the art or simply looking for an argument to apease their ego.
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Old 03-31-2005, 06:51 PM   #215
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
I use aikido principles all the time in NHB training and fighting. Even some techniques. But to define one's self by a "style" or technique, especially if it is a "DO" is really pointless.

Those that say it does not work do not understand the spectrum (breadth and depth) of the art, equally, I believe you will also find that most do not also understand NHB type fighting as well.

Makes for good conversation, but I always wonder if people are sincerely looking to explore the art or simply looking for an argument to apease their ego.
Oddly enough, I was surfing rec.martial-arts and stumbled on a thread where some BJJ/Shoot/Grappler types who cross-train in Aikido, or who have done an Aikido, offer an appraisal that's not all bad. They're not necessarily happy with the cooperative nature of thr training (which IMHO is a bit like saying the Yankees coulda beat the Red Sox if they'd just go a field goal kick in, but I digress), but they seem to like how well the techiques can work, paritcularly on those who don't train for them. Here is the link to google's archive of that thread (I hope):

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...df0d8257c9d59f

Nice to have some endorsement!

Mike
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Old 03-31-2005, 07:15 PM   #216
Hardware
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
...They're not necessarily happy with the cooperative nature of thr training...
Well, the training pretty much has to be cooperative in light of the fact that

Quote:
Brian Cates wrote:
...Aikido cannot safely be used full force on an untrained {or arguably, trained} person without risk of serious injury. Aikido involves full force throws and manipulation of joints that are dangerous and can easily kill or maim if the technique is received incorrectly...
Comments inside the {} were added by me.
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Old 04-01-2005, 05:24 AM   #217
Dazzler
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Looks like this has moved away from the nonsense title of this thread to more of an 'aikido v NHB/BJJ' angle.

This has been done pretty much to death but for what its worth heres a couple of thoughts.

Are you comparing like for like? Most people thinking of NHB think of the likes of Ken Shamrock, Oleg Takarov and the Gracies.

When they think of aikido they think of the local sensei, or if they have wider exposure they think of the famous deschi or O'Sensei himself.

is this a fair comparison? The former train specifically for head to head, 1 v 1 cage scenario. No weapons, No extra opponents joining in to defend their buddies, just them and the athlete in front of them.

In this scenario no way does aikido compete. The conditioning of this cream of the crop is unbelievable whereas the condition of many of the leading sensei who demonstrate rather than practice is questionable.

Lets also not forget the likes of Tank Abbot who could beat superior technical prowess with a bit of boxing, a bit of wresting, a beergut to be proud of and a heck of a lot of attitude.

He beat some top NHB competitors...and while he has been undone in the ring by some of them he's certainly someone I'd prefer on my side rather than not.

My point here is that its the nature of the artist rather than the art that proves decisive.

Does any of this invalidate aikido? not to me. Remove the rules and restrictions of NHB and aikido ....just like every other art ...has its advantages and disadvantages.

In my training we are taught that the techniques of aikido are less important than the bases they deliver...kamai, Maai, shisei, kokyu-ho ...relationship/position, distance, posture, breathing. Further to this we are also taught that the core of aikido is irimi and atemi.

Apply enter and strike to the right target, from the right position with correct breathing pattern and you should have a form that is pretty effective. Don't get hung up on whether it is ikkyo nikkyo kotagaeshi or whatever. If the bases are right it will work..

Blend this attack with an oppenents moves and you have aikido.

Of course this is conjecture. Aikido seems to be more about avoiding fighting rather than fighting so in the main I'm talking about potential here.

By having this wider objective Aikido makes it harder for its exponents to excel against those who focus on a specific skill.

I include 'fighting' as a specific skill.

If the thread said who would you bet on in a fight? top MMA or senior aikidoka I'd put my money on ken shamrock.

As a person I prefer to train to control violence rather than to react with it. I've practiced jujitsu, vale tude, boxing and wrestling to assimilate some of what they offer. Right now I'm working more on my aikido.

I recognise the plusses and minuses of this - I'd say chose the art that suits you best and don't get fooled by mystique or by cable TV coverage.

Just my thoughts.

D
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Old 04-01-2005, 06:02 AM   #218
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote:
If the thread said who would you bet on in a fight? top MMA or senior aikidoka I'd put my money on ken shamrock.
I don't usually watch UFC, it doesn't hold much interest for me, but I do confess to seeing the Ken Shamrock vs Tito Ortiz bout last week (happened to be on whilst channel hopping). Ken Shamrock took a serious pasting, but like you said, I'd still rather have him on my side than trying to take my head off .


rgds

Bryan

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 04-01-2005, 07:14 AM   #219
Dazzler
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Hi Bryan

I don't follow it too much myself but will watch if nothing else is on ...the feeling I've picked up is that Kens focus has been on the big bucks in WWF while TO name seems to be mentioned regularly by those that do watch it as a top quality guy.

I feel you just gotta give credit to all of them just for being there.

Likewise...I apply same to some of the elder statesmen still pushing aikido after 50 or 60 years.

When most guys are in bath chairs with a blanket and a nurse they are still on the mat doing their best.

I say guys cos I don't know of any ladies with similar experience yet...sure there may be some but I don't know any...so nobody divert the wrath of the Equality thread on me!

Cheers

D
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Old 04-01-2005, 11:21 AM   #220
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Brian Cates wrote:

...Aikido cannot safely be used full force on an untrained {or arguably, trained} person without risk of serious injury. Aikido involves full force throws and manipulation of joints that are dangerous and can easily kill or maim if the technique is received incorrectly...

This does not apply to ALL Aikido type techniques. Conversely this applies to ALL styles of martial arts, they all have things you cannot do full force on an untrained person.

Not saying you are implying the following, but I have seen this argument made before that aikido is too lethal to train hard or full force. That is not true. It can be and I have trained this way. However, it is best to train slowly and develop your posture etc. I think aikido typically spends alot of time training this way and it is good.

Even in BJJ you train slow and methodically to develop good habits. They just tend to spend much more time on randori from my experiences. Most BJJers have different objectives than Aikidoka so naturally they emphasize different things.

Doesn't mean either art is any less or more effective, it simply depends on your desired goals longterm, shorterm etc.
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Old 04-01-2005, 01:31 PM   #221
Michael Neal
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

This topic was started almost 5 years ago
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Old 04-01-2005, 01:35 PM   #222
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

And it's still a question that's relevant today.
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Old 04-01-2005, 01:36 PM   #223
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I'm sure it will be going strong five years from now...

Ron Tisdale
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Old 04-01-2005, 02:47 PM   #224
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Thats why we should all have a gathering once a year like i suggested! Its easy to have all this theory behind a keyboard but put all these people togather, introduce some different training situations, scenerios etc. Bring some people in from different systems, or just the average guy off the street that you know can fight Try this over and over again until we can see what does and does not work for real, repeatedly, against different experienced resisting training partners using empty hand and weapons at full speed with minimal protective equipment. This stuff about Aikido or any other art being too dangerous if trained full force is a cop out. I will train with ANYONE full force, no matter what art or rank, if it means i can get some real world results and become a better martial artist. The toughest training i ever came across was not in any martial arts school anyways, it was in my own backyard with a bunch of guys from the old neighborhood. I guess its more fun to talk about the feats of the old masters or what teacher can do this or that rather than actually get togather and see whats up for real. Oh well, it was just an idea i thought might be fun.
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Old 04-01-2005, 02:55 PM   #225
Jory Boling
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Jason Potenza wrote:
Thats why we should all have a gathering once a year like i suggested! .... Oh well, it was just an idea i thought might be fun.
if you start a new thread "Let's plan aikiweb campout to test street value of aikido" maybe you'll get more nods.

Jory
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