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Old 12-14-2011, 06:36 AM   #1751
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote: View Post
I have heard some Judo guys say that "Aikido is where old Judoka go to die" or something like that. Not that I share that sentiment but it is a commonly held concept in the Judo community.
This was, at least some years ago, one of the Aikido marketing tools to attract judoka who were past their prime.

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Old 12-14-2011, 06:50 AM   #1752
sakumeikan
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

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Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
Though the average age in aikido class is a lot higher than it was in karate class (my guess is 40 versus 25), I'd say most of the student under 50 are quite fit (thanks to aikido training I'd say). Past 55 ageing seems to start affecting joints of some, sometimes from old injuries.

I don't see that an average age of 40 makes it an old man's art, in the sense that everyone is so fragile from old age that training has to be extra slow and careful (in fact I think the 16 year olds seem more fragile than the 40 year olds. Actually, also in karate class, I think the 35 to 50 year olds were the toughest)

For me there is one major disadvantage of starting late: because I started at 41, I may not be able to continue training for as many years as I hope to.
Dear Dave,
At 41 years of age you are a mere stripling. Hardly out of Aikido short pants.I have known many Aikidoka over the age of 60 /70 who would reduce younger stronger men to pulp [if they were required to do so ].Tamura/Chiba/ Sekiya /Kanetsuka /Tada Senseis were /are mature gents these men were /are more than capable of cutting the mustard if they had to.Peter Bacas Senseii was no spring chicken either.So just keep on training and before you know it you will be septugenarian, balding /obese aikido dinosaur.Cheers Joe.
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Old 12-14-2011, 06:52 AM   #1753
sakumeikan
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
This was, at least some years ago, one of the Aikido marketing tools to attract judoka who were past their prime.
Dear Demetrio,
Sounds like an urban myth.Cheers, Joe.
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Old 12-14-2011, 07:16 AM   #1754
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

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Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Demetrio,
Sounds like an urban myth.Cheers, Joe.
Hi Joe,

One example:

Quote:
The seeds of Fugakukai Aikido were planted in 1967 when I received a mandate from Mr. Tomiki. This mandate was explicit and directed me to take the older retired judoka in the United States and introduce them to his method of Aikido.
http://mysite.verizon.net/jjbieler/a...Fugakukai.html

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Old 12-14-2011, 09:02 AM   #1755
phitruong
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
This was, at least some years ago, one of the Aikido marketing tools to attract judoka who were past their prime.
what you are saying that aikido is the dumping ground of other martial arts rejects? no wonder we have such bad reputation. we are a bunch of bad asses.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 12-14-2011, 10:17 AM   #1756
graham christian
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Talk to people from other arts.
Have done many times. It's normal for people to see their art as best and thus put other arts down, what's new? The more aware hugher grades or teachers however respect other arts.

Thus the rule: Know who you are talking to. Otherwise you are merely searching for those who back up your own view.

Suffice to say that in my experience when it comes to hands on with those of other arts they leave with respect for Aikido. So it's not up to what 'others say' it's only up to what you do yourself.

You represent or you misrepresent. No more, no less.

Regards.G.
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Old 12-14-2011, 10:19 AM   #1757
observer
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

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Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Then Aikido is not Budo. It is not about fighting as a spiritual path, it is not Budo. The movements are not techniques they are just meditative forms so we can do away with technical gradings because how you do them is irrelevent, all that matters is your state of mind when you do them.
I'm not going to convince you, but your conclusion of what I wrote is absurd. Let me explain. In my opinion, Aikido is just a skill. Nothing else. First of all, you must evade attack. It's not easy to learn, but possible. Then, you make contact with an attacker with no hands tied. And finally is time to perform a technique. Everything "in a blink of an eye".

If you practice Aikido and haven't noticed yet that the purpose of all Aikido techniques is to hit the attacker's head to the ground, to break his neck, it's time to do it. Therefore, there is not so many (only twelve) techniques and not just only because of it. These techniques (throws) differ from others in a way how are performed. The most important thing, there is no need to break the opponent's balance to throw him. Just by straightening him up an rapidly putting down (heaven earth, ten chi) we are able to achieve the goal. We are getting help from the attacker hand's dynamic, or from pinning him, to cause his self straightening. No mistake - the purpose of the pin is not to cause a pain but only to show the way out to avoid injury. Of course, all these deadly throws can be practiced in a safe way thanks to the legacy of Jigoro Kano's Judo. It was noticed and used by Morichei Ueshiba in his art.

This is all very simple, unfortunately too simple to make money. That is why Aikido as we practice today doesn't make any sense. Pointless exercises on knees, playing with wooden sticks, grabbing each other, and performing Aikido techniques in a way that forces the partner to cooperate, otherwise it is impossible to do it.
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Old 12-14-2011, 10:32 AM   #1758
DH
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Aikido has the potential to be one of the worlds most powerful arts. Just not in the hands of the vast majority of people showing up in dojos everywhere who think they are doing aikido through their waza. They have no understanding of what it was and what it means to be doing the way of aiki.
Hence the never ending questions and doubts from within and without.

Dan
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Old 12-14-2011, 02:20 PM   #1759
Walter Martindale
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

A few years ago when I was practicing in Cambridge, New Zealand, we were joined by a gentleman of about 6'8" height (or nearly about 203 cm tall). He worked as a prison guard.

We (I was shodan, Papu, the dojo sensei was at the time sandan) tried to be fairly gentle with him because he was quite stiff - and strong - but whenever we helped him with a new waza or unbalancing principle, or whatever, his thoughts were "this is devastating".

I haven't seen him for a while (left Cambridge in 09) but I understand he's much more relaxed and smooth. Someone with hands that seem as big as a baseball glove, relaxed and flowing? Ouch.
If he thought Aikido was as nasty as that, with his experience as a guard, there must be something in it.
Cheers,
W
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Old 12-14-2011, 03:29 PM   #1760
Michael Neal
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

For most of us who do not have baseball glove sized hands we could use a lot of IS practice, I am looking forward to this new chapter in training. With all of the research done by Ellis and the experiences people are having with internal skills training, it seems this indeed is the missing element in modern Aikido. Along with (in my opinion) more training with realistic attacks and lots of randori.

Just like in most martial arts it is generally up to the practitioner to take his abilities to the next level by training things that may not be taught in typical class settings. That could be conditioning, strength training, internal skills, sparring with other martial artists, etc.

I don't think it is enough to try and gather all of your martial training in the standard class syllabus. None of the great martial artists were this limited in their training, they were always experiencing new things and exploring possibilities.

This is how Aikido can be taken to the level it should be at. And all the people who are looking for spirituality need to recognize that while that may be fine, Aikido is a martial art.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 12-14-2011 at 03:31 PM.
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Old 12-14-2011, 03:51 PM   #1761
markgunther
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I have used aikido techniques numerous times in the course of my work in a psych facility. They did work 100% of the time. Ikkyo, sankyu, kokyu nage ... In fact i think aikido techniques are the best (i.e. most appropriate) in this setting.

I cross train BJJ -- but I have not used it in real life ever. It would come in handy though in case i get toppled to the ground. I feel confident I will be able to survive on the ground. But will i ever find myself on the ground in my lifetime? Maybe never.
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Old 12-14-2011, 05:03 PM   #1762
Janet Rosen
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
First of all, you must evade attack. It's not easy to learn, but possible.....The most important thing, there is no need to break the opponent's balance to throw him. Just by straightening him up an rapidly putting down (heaven earth, ten chi) we are able to achieve the goal
I would say that the aikido I strive to do, and that of many people I train with, does not rely on evading the attack but on accepting it, and that one does indeed need to disrupt the the opponent's balance (kuzushi) as the only alternative is to force things by pushing, pulling, etc.

Last edited by akiy : 12-15-2011 at 01:42 AM. Reason: Fixed quote tag

Janet Rosen
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Old 12-14-2011, 06:20 PM   #1763
kewms
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

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Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
The most important thing, there is no need to break the opponent's balance to throw him. Just by straightening him up an rapidly putting down (heaven earth, ten chi) we are able to achieve the goal.
I think there may be some confusion about terminology here... I defy you to throw anyone without breaking their balance. If they are standing in a balanced posture, center of mass over feet, spine aligned, etc., the only way you're going to throw them is if you're strong enough to physically pick them up and hurl them.

In the specific example of "straightening him up and rapidly putting him down," unless you also change his spinal alignment relative to gravity, you've just put him right back where he started.

Katherine
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Old 12-14-2011, 08:34 PM   #1764
Michael Neal
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

yea you have to break the balance somehow, whether it be by using movement, muscle strength, or internal strength.
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Old 12-14-2011, 11:17 PM   #1765
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote: View Post
yea you have to break the balance somehow, whether it be by using movement, muscle strength, or internal strength.
I'll go even more specific than breaking balance which I personally think is too generic of a description. For example, lets talk about "side control" from a BJJ perspective. When you are controlling your opponent on the ground, you are not really able to break his balance, but you still need to constrain his movement.

It is all about the spine, if you control his STRUCTURE then you control your opponent. by controlling the head, hips, using your position, pressure etc, to disrupt his spine..then you can control him.

This, of course, is a mechanical process.

Looking at IS methods, it is not so much about "breaking balance" but controlling. You can uproot him, you can break his balance, you can control his core....many of these things can be done, IMO, without really being concerned with breaking his balance.

Hope this makes sense.

Oh...and NONE of this has to do with techniques...techniques are irrelevant once you can control him...you can do whatever you want and have fun with it since you have many options and the time to do what you want.

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Old 12-15-2011, 01:36 AM   #1766
observer
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

To whom it may concern. Surprise, surprise. To throw somebody without braking his balance. Hmm ...

From the Interview with Henry Kono: ... Showing me another quote from Bob Nadeau's article in Aikido Today Magazine, which says: "Once O-Sensei told me one day clearly and emphatically that the truth of aikido could be caught in a very short moment of time. "If you catch the secret," he said. "You can do what I do in three months."
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Old 12-15-2011, 04:34 AM   #1767
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

"Not fighting? This is madness!!"

"Madness? No...


(Cue Sparta remix!)

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
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Old 12-15-2011, 05:50 AM   #1768
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

To add to the perspective. Provided that I am strong enough and uke is small enough...I can also simply pick uke up and chuck him across the room. No need to break balance to do this. Given enough "strength" there are many options that are available that do not require breaking balance.

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Old 12-15-2011, 05:56 AM   #1769
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
To add to the perspective. Provided that I am strong enough and uke is small enough...I can also simply pick uke up and chuck him across the room. No need to break balance to do this. Given enough "strength" there are many options that are available that do not require breaking balance.
Dear Kevin,
Why not turn up at the dojo with an armoured tank?This way you could mow down everyone in sight.
Cheers, Joe.
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Old 12-15-2011, 06:20 AM   #1770
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

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Michael Neal wrote: View Post
yea you have to break the balance somehow, whether it be by using movement, muscle strength, or internal strength.
Or brainwashing your uke so they throw themselves.

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Old 12-15-2011, 07:11 AM   #1771
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Kevin,
Why not turn up at the dojo with an armoured tank?This way you could mow down everyone in sight.
Cheers, Joe.
Joe..not implying any sort of ethics into the discussion concerning the use of force. That is a different issue and discussion. Only pointing out that physically there are many ways in which to do things that do not involve breaking balance. That is all. I am all about using minimal force and controlling things in a very skillful manner.

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Old 12-15-2011, 07:47 AM   #1772
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
To add to the perspective. Provided that I am strong enough and uke is small enough...I can also simply pick uke up and chuck him across the room. No need to break balance to do this. Given enough "strength" there are many options that are available that do not require breaking balance.
When you picked him up and chucked him, you broke his balance. You may have done it in a very straight forward, brute force kind of way, but it's still the same thing. He didn't end up on the ground by accident.
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Old 12-15-2011, 08:14 AM   #1773
genin
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
When you picked him up and chucked him, you broke his balance. You may have done it in a very straight forward, brute force kind of way, but it's still the same thing. He didn't end up on the ground by accident.
At a certain point, you replaced uke's center with your own, and that's why you were able to throw him.
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Old 12-15-2011, 12:36 PM   #1774
Ketsan
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Have done many times. It's normal for people to see their art as best and thus put other arts down, what's new? The more aware hugher grades or teachers however respect other arts.

Thus the rule: Know who you are talking to. Otherwise you are merely searching for those who back up your own view.

Suffice to say that in my experience when it comes to hands on with those of other arts they leave with respect for Aikido. So it's not up to what 'others say' it's only up to what you do yourself.

You represent or you misrepresent. No more, no less.

Regards.G.
It's not a case of searching for people with my view, it's that Aikido needs to seach out people with other views and demonstrate otherwise. Thai boxing, BJJ, Wrestling don't have to advertise themselves, MMA competitions on TV do that for them. There are no questions as to to their effectiveness because MMA competitions address that.

Aikido on the other hand is low profile and the only contact most people have with it is youtube and it does not paint us in a good light. Our avoidence of competition paints us in a bad light. Even if it is for the best reasons we are martrying ourselves on our own altar.

The respect of a few more aware martial artists does not equate to attracting new, young, students.
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Old 12-15-2011, 12:52 PM   #1775
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

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Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
"I used to do *insert art* and then I got injured and I wanted to take something else up and then I found Aikido" quite often.
Did they take an arrow to the knee?

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
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