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Old 02-27-2003, 06:14 PM   #151
JasonDelucia
Dojo: Kensho ryu
Location: Bellingham
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Re: Real street fighting

kris,maybe you know who i am ,so induldge me.

having been there and done that,take it from me ,any competition with rules and referees is not a real fight .it is a good simulation and you'll be better prepared than someone who has never been there,but it is not real in the sense we talk.even when there were no rules in ufc which i fought ,the fact that there were referees makes all the difference in the world.a split second of compassion from a ref can save a life ,and over zealous compassion can alter a fight's conclusion.for example the fight between guy and tito was in my opinion stopped prematurely (way too soon)and if there were no rounds in the ken vs tito i believe the results would have been very different.for ken,a guy who trained much of his career to fight 30 minutes straight,his impulses have to be compromised.

i believe the point of many aikidoka is that there is a pristine system which came about through variety and constant ecclectic research ,refinement and spritual metephore.which unlike many existing philosophies enriches a person moraly.by that i refer to the less evolved fighter who uses anger ,ego ect.to the man who makes it a point to reach submission quickly ,then shows compassion to gain respect and make friends as i believe i have done with all members of the lions den .aiki is not simply technique ,and i don't want to sound condescending,but i make the point to illustrate ,to perform traditional aikido effectively takes much longer than is realistic for a professional fighter .that is because it came about from a man who mastered one style at a time and he gradually ''morphed''into this thing .and to retrace his steps is impossible ,so he standardized the basic tenets to make possible the journey.

ps.aikido is not a real fight either,but it is true self defense.tell ken and guy ect.hi
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Old 02-28-2003, 01:03 PM   #152
ryujin
 
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Quote:
Mel Barker wrote:
Carl, how long had you practiced aikido at that time?

Mel
At that time, I had about 7 years in training. I was often putting in about 15 hours a week. Its been a bit less since returning to school for higher education.


Carl Bilodeau
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō
Renshinkan

"Yield to temptation it may not pass your way again." - Robert Heinlein
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Old 03-01-2003, 02:04 AM   #153
DaveO
Dojo: Great Wave Aikido
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Hello, friends; I was uncertain where to put this, and was unwilling to start a separate thread; so this one seemed like the best place to put it.

Aikido works, if the user works. And it works perfectly well. As of an hour ago, I know for certain.

Please excuse the prosaic style of this, I want to record it while its still fresh in my mind and don't know any other way of writing.

I work nights, which means on my days off I'm up nights as well most of the time. A couple hours ago, I was working on my computer, realized I was running out of cigarettes (Insert anti-smoking disparagememt here) so put my coat on and headed out to the nearest all-night store; a 7-11 up on King Street; about 15 minutes away by foot.

The store is across the street from Club Abstract; an alternative bar with a certain notoriety for being lax with its alcoho cut-off rules. Needless to say, the girls working at the 7-11 don't have a very good time of it at around 1:30am.

Anyway, I was approaching the store and looking in the windows, could see the girls were dealing with a drunk patron - he looked like he was arguing very forcefully about the price of something - I could hear his voice from where I was standing.

These girls deal with this all the time, so for caution's sake, I faded into the bushes just in case something happened. (I don't want to sound like I'm making a joke, but I was an Infantryman for most of my life - I'm very good at being invisible when I want to be.)

Anyway, the girls finally had enough and told him to leave which - after threatening to call the cops (I found out later) he did, with his two friends. He left, shouting curses and threats. Once he was gone, the situation over, I walked into the store, chatted with the girls for a few minutes (they're friends of mine) them bought my smokes and left the store.

You guessed it - the drunk idiot decided honour must be avenged, and had returned. This wasn't a matter of cooling someone down, giving him room to think, giving him a chance to choose peace, etc., this guy flat out wanted a fight - and he wanted if from the first person to cross his path, which was me.

In my own defence, I tried to talk him down. I smiled and said "You've been having a good night, eh?" etc. Didn't work - he wanted to go, period. My end went in the space of about two minutes from jocular to calming to cautionary while his friends egged him on and laughed. Finally; I had no choice but to get serious; I told him in no uncertain terms what would happen if he attacked. His drunk laugh and glance at his two buddies told me everything I needed to know - the fight had just started.

Now; Im sure a whole lot of people are going to start saying that you can't know what's about to happen; to be blunt, that's foolish and ignorant. Yes, you can. Unskilled fighters telegraph their moves - cock a fist, throw a shoulder, give subtle-as-a-club gestures to their friends etc. So, I knew exactly what was coming.

My initial response was "Oh, sh*t." I was annoyed - even sober, these three would have little chance of dealing with a veteran soldier; drunk, no chance at all, armed or not. (They weren't - they would have pulled them before then.)

Anyway; buddy number one's right hand shot out to grab my coat so he could hit me with his left. Buddies 2 and 3 started to flank; the intent to push me over backwards.

Obviously, it didn't work that way, I moved as soon as he did and a lot faster - when his hand touched me to grab, I grabbed it with my left, whipped my right up and over and dropped into a hard nikkyo. His body was going back as he was cocking his left arm, so I pushed forward and down keeping his right arm cocked. He screeched and hit his knees. Good enough, but I had 2 more to deal with. I reversed the hold into sankyo, reverted to karate for a second and gave him a quick strike with the heel of the hand to the midsection to knock his wind out and spun him around with the sankyo so he was between me and buddy #3. #2 and 3 had stopped, uncertain. OK, fight was over - they weren't about to attack. I projected buddy#1 into the wall of the store, told him (word for word) "Don't attack strangers, boychik. Bad things might happen to you." I dropped him and faced the other two again. I said "Next!" and took a step towards them, they took off like rockets - right into the cops who'd just arrived. (They were in the Abstract; checking the place out. They'd seen what was happening and were moving to help, but it was all over before they'd crossed the street.) I dodn't think the whole thing took more than fifteen seconds.

After about an hour, the cops let us all leave. I argued with them not to arrest the drunk; he'd learned his lesson. (Arresting me was never in question fortunately; they'd seen the whole thing.) After interviewing me, the three, the girls, and about 20 others that had been watching, they let me leave, and the other two. The first, (His name, I learned, is Ian) they took away.

I'm looking over this and to me; it sounds a bit like a bad Seagal plot. I dunno; that's just the way things turned out. I never intended to strictly use Aikido; I didn't make any concious decisions relating to the engagement at all - I just acted, using what was best for the moment. My only concious decision - made long before the fight started; several years ago I'd say - was to not injure them if at all possible. Perhaps that was why Aikido came out and not karate or jiu-jitsu.

One other thing: I'm sure that when reading this scores of people are going to pipe up saying 'oh, that was wrong, you shouldn't have done that, etc.etc.' I KNOW at least one person will pipe up saying 'you could have run away and avoided the fight'.

Yeah, right.

Let's be blunt: I had absolutely no inclination to run from these weiners. Had I done so, (A) they would have chased me, (B) it would have been needlesly humiliating to run, (C)they would have been emboldened enough to attack the next person out the door, period.

Another comment would be "You might have been hurt or killed" Total BS; they were not a real threat - that's why I proceeded as I did; working to frighten, not injure. To reiterate; I've faced entire platoons of hostiles in my time overseas; 3 drunks simply don't qualify as a serious danger.

And no; i wasn't 'lucky', luck had no part of the situation.

In my life, with the exception of countless incidents during peacekeeping/making operations, I've been exactly two fights; this one included. Hopefully, it'll be the last, but I'm glad to know Aikido works when used...not that I ever had any doubts.

Thanks for letting me get this off my chest while it was still fresh in my mind, friends.

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 03-01-2003, 03:11 AM   #154
Kelly Allen
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Thumbs down Atemi

I think you did the right thing! If it wasn't you it would have been the girls in the 7-11.

The part about reverting to Karate. That sounded more like well placed atemi to me.
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Old 03-01-2003, 03:35 AM   #155
Aristeia
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Good story. What I find particularly interesting is that the two techniques you found effective were wrist locks against the infamous "drunken opponant". I guess not everyone who has a few drinks is as impervious to a good nikkyo or sankyo as some seem to think.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 03-01-2003, 03:56 AM   #156
DaveO
Dojo: Great Wave Aikido
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I only did what I knew; Michael. I've only been doing Aikido for less than a year and know very little technique. But; what technique I do know I practice until I can do them easily so when the time comes, I don't have to think about it.

Interesting; I never heard about Nikkyo and Sankyo not working on drunks; but I certainly know they work - I've been doing a variation of sankyo for years; in the military and among cops, it's called a 'come-along' for obvious reasons. Nikkyo is quite common in varied form as well; just called a 'wristlock' I was using something (vaguely) like it years ago.
(Besides, I have to point out that when that nikkyo went on, there was 210lbs coming down on it, full force. Drunk or not, no-one's standing up through that.)

Last edited by DaveO : 03-01-2003 at 04:03 AM.

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 03-01-2003, 09:38 AM   #157
akiy
 
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Hi Dave,

I'm glad everything turned out OK. You're safe, the folks in the convenience store are safe, and the people who attacked you seemed to "learn their lesson" without being seriously injured.

But, all in all, let's hope things like this don't happen again...

-- Jun

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Old 03-01-2003, 09:56 AM   #158
DaveO
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Agreed - dealing with drunks is most distasteful.

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 03-02-2003, 02:09 AM   #159
DaveO
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Just want to clarify my last comment - I hope it didn't sound too arrogant; in hindsight I thought it might.

My viewpoint on dealing with situations like this are clear; if someone wants to start a fight, I have no moral qualms about finishing that fight, or about causing pain or fear to do so. The way I see it; like all things on this earth. a fight is a game. A game with its own rules, strategy and protocol. Rule #1 for any game states that if you wish to play; you had better be prepared for the possibility of losing because eventually, you will.

See; when a person decides to start a fight (and there is always a conscious decision to fight; fights are never spontaneous), he is effectively announcing the game and the rules; forcing the other person to play that game whether he likes it or not. So; if someone plays that game with me, I'm going to play to win.

And here; while we are looking at the fight as a game, is where a little bit of the 'art' in Martial Arts comes in. I in no way consider myself a skilled martial artist. I'm a good fighter; little more. But; as in any game like chess, bridge, hockey, politics, business, etc., when one player has a sufficient skill advantage over his opponent, he can direct the game-play to the conclusion that he wishes; i.e. not simply winning; but winning in a satisfactory style. Gary Kasparov doesn't like to cream his opponent on the chessboard; he likes to build a beautiful game rich with pattern and guile into the match. A champion debater doesn't want to bludgeon his opponent into submission with emotional words; he wants to weave an elegant basket of argument from which his opponent cannot escape. MY ideal in this situation is to end the conflict with no-one hurt, no laws broken and valuable lessons learned.

Hmmm - I digressed a bit. Getting back to the point, I view fighting like I do all things; as a game; one I play to win. I just don't like playing that particular game with drunks; it's, well, distasteful - they're not going to win; they're loud smelly and obnoxious; and usually fairly disgusting to lay hands on. There are a lot of guys like that; some are very good friends of mine; nice, even and generous people when sober; they turn into total frankensteins after a few drinks. Sad, really.

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 10-13-2004, 11:53 AM   #160
omerbey
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

In FRP language, at early levels multiclassing with aikido gives more practical results. But at higher levels a pure aikido core class is demigod. You probably lost me here, but I couldn't keep myself from saying this.
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Old 10-13-2004, 10:03 PM   #161
Yokaze
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

My two cents that nobody will ever read:

Look, if I wanted to go to a bar and start a fight, Aikido is not the way to go. If I want to be a bully and push people around, try to intimidate and force other people, Aikido is not the way to go.

That's all the writer of this thread wants. To go out and beat people up. Anyone can do that. If I just wanted to hurt people, I'd buy a gun and not waste my time learning three martial arts. Duh.

So no, with an attitude like that, of course you can't see how Aikido is useful. All of those things that you are calling weaknesses, the lack of competition, the gentleness of it all, we regard as Aikido's greatest strengths.

There's no way I can convince you of the practicality of Aikido other than to compete with you. However, that goes against everything I believe as an Aikidoka. If I wanted to compete, I'd wrestle again. Or take up Judo. I don't want to hurt people. At the same time I don't want to get hurt. Mastery of Aikido allows me to do just that.

"The only true victory is victory over oneself."

Rob Cunningham
3rd Kyu

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Old 10-14-2004, 03:46 AM   #162
destura
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Joeysola wrote,

The reason I started this thread was because I came here to look into trying another martial art. I checked out some classes and had a friend give me some lessons. I have found that Aikido has no practical application.

If you want to learn how to punch box. If you want to learn how to kick kickbox. If you want to learn how to grapple do Judo or wrestling. If you want to learn submissions do BJJ or submission fighting. I am saying that the strikes and grappling in Aikido have no application in a real fight. They only work if you are getting pushed around.


... is that because Aikido is a Defensive?... or it is because the Martial art for Peace!...
But.... try to punch and kick or any attack to an aikidoka... and you will see and feel what you want.... hehehe...
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Old 10-14-2004, 06:09 AM   #163
jss
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Gaven Destura wrote:
Joeysola wrote,

I am saying that the strikes and grappling in Aikido have no application in a real fight. They only work if you are getting pushed around.
Time for the old 'fight vs. self-defence' discussion!
Any volunteers?
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Old 10-14-2004, 09:56 AM   #164
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

No

Rt

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 10-14-2004, 12:08 PM   #165
Anjisan
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Many of us who follow Aikido related sites have been down this path many times before. I have been training in both Aikido and karate/kick-boxing for many years now and they, like all arts have their weaknesses. I also have cross-trained in BJJ for 2 years to expand my training in case I am ever taken to the ground. Let me say that I have tremedous respect for BJJ as an art. Specifically, with regard to Aikido I believe that it really varies form dojo to dojo and instructor to instructor as far as strikes are concerned. I have seen Aikido practicioners who inspire me with their ability in terms of self-defence (Saotome sensei. Saito sensei and Seagal sensei for example) and then those who seem to at least really struggle if ever confronted with a real situation. I believe that It really depends on the practicionar and the dojo emphasis. Many schools don't emphasize strikes as much as others perhaps believeing that it could become a crutch for not executing the tecnique properly. I remember when I was training in BJJ that we would emphasize the ability to pass the guard, switch from on position to anther, execute joint locks and chokes without striking (partly becasue it would shorten the practice considerably, just as in karate we didin't spar bare knuckled either) because we wanted to develop skill and not have to rely on pumeling a guy to make the tecnique work. I mean it seems to me that many people could execute most tecniques on someone if they have just smacked a guy across the face with say.....an elbow. It seems unfair to indite an entire art based on limeted experience.

Further, I never hear from practicioners of BJJ when they speak to the practicality of Bjj (which I don't entirely disagree with) how such issues as dealing with multiple attackers, conflits taking place on concrete or similar surface as opposed to a mat, no rules--of any kind on the street-- against eye gouging, biting, groing attacks, etc and the very real possility of the individual that one is rolling around with haveing a knife or shank to pull out of their boot or pocket and carve up your kidneys with while that beautiful triangle choke is being put in place. I mean the issues of strikes may become of less importance in the grand scheme of things if your opponent's friends are taking turns kicking you in the head, punching you repeatedly, and going back to their vehicle to get the gun, knife, or some other weapon you don't have time to consider becaue your attention is consumed with the persone that your are rolling around with.


Best Regards.
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Old 10-14-2004, 12:12 PM   #166
jonreading
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Hmmm. I have read into this thread for several minutes and noticed that Joeysola's (originator) comments seem to be an apple/orange comparison. I once heard a comment about the place of martial arts and the strengths and weaknesses inherent to each. An analogy was made to racing that compared sprinters to marathon runners to triathletes. Who is a better athlete? (please don't answer...)

I have a lot of respect for serious martial artists, and I respect the skill of individuals. I think the simple fact of the matter is a serious martial artist believes what they know. I believe that skilled martial artist learns to protect their weakness. I am not convinced that the originator of this thread is either, and that may be why the question was posed.

To that end, I say train in whatever you want to believe in. Then expand what your believe in and cover your weakness. If you don't want to believe in aikido, there is nothing anyone can say that will change your mind. I have noticed several excellent aikidoka comment on this thread, and if you don't want to listen to them, then you don't want to listen.

In the end, pick your race; but don't enter a sprinter in a marathon.
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Old 10-14-2004, 12:14 PM   #167
Aikidoiain
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Aikido does indeed work in a fight. I've used it on many occasions. If it doesn't work for you - you're the problem, not the Aikido.

Nuff said.

Iain.
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Old 10-14-2004, 08:31 PM   #168
Chris Birke
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Until yesterday no one had commented on this in almost a year! Can we get please some fresh threads rehashing this same tired argument?
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Old 10-14-2004, 10:06 PM   #169
Nafis Zahir
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

This is in response to some of the things that I have read. First of all, to say that Aikido has no practical application in the street, is absolutely false! I trained in Kung Fu for 7 years prior to taking up Aikido. But it was a true martial art, and when you learn it that way and understand its principals, you come to learn that in its purest form, it has no place for practical application in street self defense. We had special classes in order to learn how to break down the techniques to a basic form for street application. Aikido, on the other hand, can be directly applied as it is learned, in any street confrontation. To the man who said to try punches and kicks on an Aikidoka, I say this: I have had that happen and the person was not prepared for what happend. I could have easily hurt the person severely, but chose not to. All arts have their pros and cons. What matters is how you apply what you have been taught. As for those who say we can't defend against BJJ or take downs, there again is a misconception. I had to deal with people who tried to use take downs when I did Kung Fu. Most times I did some Chinese leg movements and ended up putting the persons face in the ground. Other times I would get into a very strong chinese stance and they were simply unable to take me down or move me at all. But now that I do Aikido, I no longer have those struggles. People who throw punches and kicks are the easiest to take out. Secondly, no matter what art you study, you will end up in a situation (if you ever have to defend yourself) where the circumstances might not allow you to apply your art as you have learned to. This is where you need and open mind. You can never underestimate anyone or any style, even "street" fighters. You can also never think that things will go as "smoothly" as they do in practice. The last time someone threw a few punches at me, he did connect once or twice, but after that, he was face down on the ground, couldn't move, and was faced with the possibility of having his arm shattered. But you say Aikido is not practical? His punches could have given me a black eye or swollen lip, but his arm would have taken months to heal and the pain would have been severe. The last karateka to throw a punch at me missed and it was open season for me. But I let it slide because he would have gotten hurt badly, he was a friend, and he thought also that Aikido wouldn't work. Lastly, as for the UFC, that is a joke. It is just as much a competition as it is a fight. Although brutal, it does have its limitations. Therefore, the comparison is mute. One the street, the Aikidoka lives by the code of the Samurai - "One attack, One death!" For the true martial artist doesn't spend time comparing arts, but rather finding similarities in each of them and also what can be beneficial to him.

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Old 10-14-2004, 10:27 PM   #170
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

No, not another zombie thread come back to life! No, nooooooooooooooo .......

And we'll just ignore that I got dragged into one a while back.

Mas Mike
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Old 10-15-2004, 07:57 PM   #171
xuzen
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

All of you none believer... I have trained my aikido to such high level, I can project my ki energy balls and break every bone and sinew in ukes'/enemy bodies. Damm, gotta get out more often and stop playing those PS2 street fighter games...

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 10-16-2004, 02:03 AM   #172
maikerus
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
All of you none believer... I have trained my aikido to such high level, I can project my ki energy balls and break every bone and sinew in ukes'/enemy bodies.
Boon...you've got some balls, man.

Such was the strength of your key (er...ki) that it caused my mouse to explode and burn my hand the instant I opened this thread to your post. I can smell the burnt flesh now as I type this one handed.

Aarrghh! The PAIN! You caused pain with your Aikido. I can't believe it!

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 10-18-2004, 03:34 PM   #173
KPatton
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Anonymous:

It is clear you have little or no understanding of what Aikido is or can be. There are some styles such as Fugakukai, or Karl Geis Ryu that are geared only toward practical application with little or no mysticism or fluff involved. As to grappling or striking; what good does it do you if you can never get within distance to do either before you are on your head? A gentleman with mal intent broke mai on me a month ago and he was on his head before he could even bring his arms up to strike. The only thing that saved him from forcefully kissing the pavement was the fender of a car. As for punches and kicks; I think your body mass dropping at 2 ft/sec sq into the ground generates a lot more power than your feet or hands ever could. My shomen-ate with 250 lbs behind it generates somewhere in the neighborhood of 700lbs of force. THAT my friend is a strike that could easily put you on your back or head depending on where your feet were moving at the time. And that is the first and easiest technique we teach in Karl Geis Ryu.
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Old 10-27-2004, 12:42 AM   #174
Michael Neal
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Aikido does work, unless everyone who has had a real life encounter is lying. Not likely. But I agree with Paul Watt in that it may not be the fastest way to learn self defense and it most certainly has limitations.

1) Suwariwaza and kokyu waza techniques do not substitute for ground fighting like in Judo, wrestling, or BJJ no matter how much some people want to believe it.
2) Aikido is somewhat lacking when the Aikido distance is breached and it results in standing grappling.
3) Aikido is not practiced enough with full speed realistic strikes.
4) There is a severe shortage of full randori to develop the instincts and skills to deal with a wild and uncooperative partner.
5) And most importantly the fact that so many Aikidoka answer people's questions to the above points by saying "Well just don't let yourself be taken to the ground," "Just don't allow you oppponent to breach your mai," or my favorite "Just don't fight them, walk away." All of these would be great if they were foolproof, but we live in a real world and Aikido is not magic.

You also have to understand Aikido is a philosophy as much as it is a martial art. If you do not like that you will not get much out of Aikido. Now I could also list the limitations of BJJ, Judo, Karate etc. because they all have them as well. You just have to deecide what limitations you are willing to accept and what benefits you like the most.
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Old 10-27-2004, 01:36 AM   #175
stuartjvnorton
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
All of you none believer... I have trained my aikido to such high level, I can project my ki energy balls and break every bone and sinew in ukes'/enemy bodies. Damm, gotta get out more often and stop playing those PS2 street fighter games...

Boon.

lol ki balls, when I go super saiyan 3 I'm gonna SOOOO Aiki your butt...
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