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Old 11-11-2011, 08:21 AM   #1676
grondahl
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
I think you are right that the training method is very important factor when your aim is effectiveness in particular situations, but my recent posts were meant as a response to this statement about aikido techniques:
There are a few simple and effective techniques in aikido but most are really, really hard to do on anybody who doesn´t take ukemi. Shihonage for instance does not strike me as a battlefield technique.
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Old 11-11-2011, 08:24 AM   #1677
Dave de Vos
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
I think you are right that the training method is very important factor when your aim is effectiveness in particular situations
Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
There are a few simple and effective techniques in aikido but most are really, really hard to do on anybody who doesn´t take ukemi. Shihonage for instance does not strike me as a battlefield technique.
The battle field for special forces would be different from the battle field for a normal soldier, I guess. Perhaps shihonage can be useful in unarmed situations (in the special forces video it is shown around 1:40).

For the record: my aim is not effectiveness on the battle field.

Being a beginner, my aim is effectiveness on the mat, which already is quite a challenge, particularly with newbies who don't try help you (because they have no clue)

Last edited by Dave de Vos : 11-11-2011 at 08:36 AM.
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Old 11-11-2011, 08:54 AM   #1678
Ketsan
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
There are a few simple and effective techniques in aikido but most are really, really hard to do on anybody who doesn´t take ukemi. Shihonage for instance does not strike me as a battlefield technique.
The usefulness of Aikido isn't in it's techniques; there are no techniques ultimately. The usefulness and the effectiveness comes from the body conditioning and other training like ma-ai, timing, awareness of openings, confidence etc that the techniques provide.
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Old 11-11-2011, 09:04 AM   #1679
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
It just seems to me that some more informed practicioners have some confidence in the usefulness of these techniques in modern combat.
We could check how informed about the realities of combat (modern or otherwise) are said practitioners. How may times have they been engaged in real h2h? What they used to prevail? How have they been trained physically and psychologically?

Quote:
Yes, uke is not very resistive in this video. I can only guess what would have happened if he were more "resisitive". Would he have stopped the teacher or would he become more "abused"?
My guess is the latter.
My guess is if uke were really trying to impose his will on the demonstrator the techniques shown would not work unless they were heavily modified.

Quote:
Either way, the outcome in this particular case would only prove something for these two practicioners. Would it be possible to derive some general conclusion about the effectiveness of these techniques in general?
Possible? Yes. But maybe the general conclusions about efectiveness of these techniques one can achieve are flawed. The plural of anecdote is not data.

Quote:
I'm not sure what you mean in the first part of yur response. You say that these techniques are common. Do you mean that this disqualifies them as aikido techniques?
No, what I mean is the clip could have been named "Flos Duellatorum Instructions", "Dirty Judo Instructions", "Kali Instructions" or whatever.

And about my statement "Aikido techniques and tactics do not make sense in the battlefield." as I said to Kevin, I was exaggerating a bit but (and being Kevin a professional in that field) I'd rather prefer to be him the one who explains you the differences between the clip you posted and this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivm2BzsVt4M

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Old 11-11-2011, 09:53 AM   #1680
chillzATL
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

So what is it now, aikido doesn't work in a fight or it doesn't work on the battlefield? Does anyone even know anymore?
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Old 11-11-2011, 12:06 PM   #1681
Demetrio Cereijo
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Smile Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
There are a few simple and effective techniques in aikido but most are really, really hard to do on anybody who doesn´t take ukemi. Shihonage for instance does not strike me as a battlefield technique.
Shihonage is a dutch discovery

http://www.truefork.org/DragonPreser...y/Petter11.php

And yonkyo too.

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Old 11-11-2011, 01:36 PM   #1682
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
Takenouchi Ryu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2QzjjTvqog Looks more like combat sports (pummeling and takedowns) than aikido.

European version of the same thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hlIUrd7d1Q
(pummeling and takedowns).
Nice links Peter. I especially liked the European Armour video. For me at least, the principles are the same, while the tactics are different. Agreed that it tends to look alot like combat sports of grappling as far as pummelling and takedowns. However, why are those things also not within the context of good aiki principles? Can you not have Aiki in those.

I think a big part of the problem is that alot of people look at the basic kihon of what is typically practiced in aikido and look at it as a collection of techniques and tactics.

If you are working Aiki and understand Aiki, then you really don't have this discussion anymore as you realize that the techniques are just there to give context and in most cases, I think they are a waste of time as it is way too hard to learn Aiki while trying to do technique.

Personally I think there is alot of confusion out there about Aiki, Aikido, and techniques/tactics and Jiu Jitsu in general.

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Old 11-11-2011, 01:45 PM   #1683
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
There are a few simple and effective techniques in aikido but most are really, really hard to do on anybody who doesn´t take ukemi. Shihonage for instance does not strike me as a battlefield technique.
I think it is a perfectly reasonable "battlefield" technique. That is, given the right conditions and circumstances. High percentage move...no. On a battlefield with horses/cavalry, armor, and a mixture of people on both sides....swords, halbreds and everyone fighting enmass to force the tide of battle...I think you can make a good argument for Shionage.

Moving to modern day tactics. No so much when it consist a different dynamic all together. Might is be useful....possible. Do I practice it or do I ever work on it within my "Combatives" instruction or practice....no. I have other much more important things to spend my time on.

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Old 11-11-2011, 02:13 PM   #1684
Eric Joyce
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Demetrio, good to see you posting!

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the things we learn in aikido do not make sense on the battlefield today. I think alot of what we do in aikido does make sense provided that we understand our environment and what it is that we need to do in it. I personally feel my training in aikido has provided some relevance.

That said, the low level discussions that take place concerning the "effectiveness of aikido" that categorically try and validate aikido do not do us any good, and much of the logic that is used such as "it was derived from battlefield arts of yore" to validate it are a stretch indeed.

We have to validate, each of us, our own training, instructors, and methods of training...for ourselves. We have to take ownership of it and develop our own criteria for doing so.

The problem is that most of us in a civilized world do not have the background or the framework in place in order to do this properly so we look to historical context or external "authorities" in order to make our decisions. IMO, much of this is wrong.

Many of the things that we done in feudal japan are still being done today. All good systems of study in Modern Battlefield combatives do things like O Soto Gari, for example. It has not changed in...what like 1000 years. The Principles of Kusushi is still the same, irimi, ma ai..all the principles we study are the same for sure.

However, the problem is...that that immediately gets translated in "see I told you Aikido is effective!"

Well while the principles of arts like Aikido are relevant and apply to the modern battlefield, studying principles make you no better prepared to go to battle or fight than graduating with an undergraduate degree in business and expecting to go out in the world and be successful in business the very next day!

We don't expect that from college where we study theory and principle so why do we make this mistake when looking at martial arts training?

So, for me and my experiences, aikido certainly can make a good foundation to study principles and theory of martial movement, however, you must stop there and realize that that is all that is really going on there, and you really need a good teacher and a collection of students that can take it to the next level in order to understand modern combatives and the street.
I agree. Nice post Kevin

Eric Joyce
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Old 11-14-2011, 05:18 AM   #1685
St Matt
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

By fight are we talking about some meat head trying to prove he is more man than you because he wants to look 'ard' in front of his mates or you accidently spilt his beer and he wont let it go? If so then Aikido is great. On the second shove (you know this one is coming as the first may have taken you by surprise) there are several techniques to drop him. If he grabs you, you can drop him. If he throws a punch etc etc. He probably does not know you study Aikido and therefore he will most likely leave himself open for your defense and you can then make him see the error of his ways.

If we are talking about a mugger the same applies so long as you see him coming.

If we are talking about the modern battlefield, once you get past the bullets, bombs, grenades etc and get into hand to hand you are probably going to be faced with a trained fighter but still Aikido can be effective.

Real life Aikido doesn't look as smooth and flowing as it does in traing but the techniques work!
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Old 12-04-2011, 03:00 PM   #1686
mboogie
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Shihonage is a dutch discovery

http://www.truefork.org/DragonPreser...y/Petter11.php

And yonkyo too.
Haha! nice.

My teacher said someday (if i am understand hem correctly) that there is a difference between Aikido and self-defence. Sure you can use Aikido techniques in a real fight but then you also can apply additional techniques if you want to. Then it would be self-defence. For instance uchi kaiten nage omote. To apply an additional knee in the face would be very easy but not very harmonious. but then again maybe i do not want to be harmonious in that fight. Then it is no Aikido.
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Old 12-10-2011, 09:49 AM   #1687
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Shihonage is a dutch discovery

http://www.truefork.org/DragonPreser...y/Petter11.php

And yonkyo too.
More likely they were independently discovered because physiuology doesn't change, and neither do pressure points. The same moves might be used for the same reason.

"I am not a big fat panda. I am the big fat panda." --Po, Kung Fu Panda
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Old 12-10-2011, 06:53 PM   #1688
lbb
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I think the person who started this thread has probably died of old age. Maybe y'all should let the thread follow him/her.
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Old 12-10-2011, 07:06 PM   #1689
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I think the person who started this thread has probably died of old age. Maybe y'all should let the thread follow him/her.
It's possible, but if he has I'm guessing there was some reincarnation involved.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 12-10-2011, 07:55 PM   #1690
hughrbeyer
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Why? Aikiweb needs a "Aikido does not work at all in a fight" thread, but does it need more than one?
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Old 12-11-2011, 03:10 AM   #1691
sakumeikan
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Dear All,
Maybe I am a sadist /masochist/moron but I keep on clicking in this blog the LAST Post page.I keep hoping it is indeed the last post but someone always writes .Any chance of making my wish come true and consign this subject matter to the dust bin?Cheers, Joe.
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Old 12-11-2011, 08:43 AM   #1692
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

lol...you will just take your need to suffer some where else.

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Old 12-11-2011, 09:11 AM   #1693
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I think of this thread as the "Zombie" thread... it's one of the "walking dead". It can't be killed... Every so often another person does a paragraph or so which revives it and occasions ten pages of "why won't this thread die?" posts. Even Jun, who has the ultimate control over most thing AikiWeb can't kill this topic... if he deleted the whole thing, it would only be reborn...

So far, the only defense against the "Zombie Thread" seems to be a complete and utter indifference to the subject.

George S. Ledyard
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AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 12-11-2011, 09:41 AM   #1694
graham christian
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Must be a non-resistive thread....
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Old 12-11-2011, 10:28 AM   #1695
Ketsan
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I've decided I'm having the last word in this discussion and it shall be.............pie.
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Old 12-11-2011, 03:42 PM   #1696
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Yes, you had the last word. [shameless plug] If you want to keep a thread alive, let it be this one.

"I am not a big fat panda. I am the big fat panda." --Po, Kung Fu Panda
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Old 12-11-2011, 09:26 PM   #1697
Michael Neal
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
I think of this thread as the "Zombie" thread... it's one of the "walking dead". It can't be killed... Every so often another person does a paragraph or so which revives it and occasions ten pages of "why won't this thread die?" posts. Even Jun, who has the ultimate control over most thing AikiWeb can't kill this topic... if he deleted the whole thing, it would only be reborn...

So far, the only defense against the "Zombie Thread" seems to be a complete and utter indifference to the subject.
I am wondering if Aikido will work at all in a fight, what do you think
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Old 12-11-2011, 09:35 PM   #1698
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote: View Post
I am wondering if Aikido will work at all in a fight, what do you think
As if enough hasn't been done to keep this zombie alive , AFAIK, every martial art, including Aikido, is backed by people who say they used whatever they knew in a real live situation and it worked. So it's almost impossible to predict what will or won't "work." Doesn't guaruntee it will work for you, but the same is true of everything else IMHO.

"I am not a big fat panda. I am the big fat panda." --Po, Kung Fu Panda
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Old 12-11-2011, 10:02 PM   #1699
Janet Rosen
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Hi I'm Gary and I'm wondering if there are kicks in aikido....

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 12-12-2011, 12:32 AM   #1700
observer
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote: View Post
I am wondering if Aikido will work at all in a fight, what do you think
Do you want to know the answer? First, ask your fellow aikidokas, their teachers, or even the most respected akido shihans today, the fallowed question. The question is: "Are they able, for sure, to avoid every first attack of any boxer, or just anyone?" O-Sensei was able to do it, and that is the essence of His art. Think about it and don't look for the answer on this forum even if you were joking.
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