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Old 10-23-2011, 06:50 PM   #1551
kewms
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
.
You have no limits but those your chosen training imposes to you.
Which, since training time is finite, means that there are always limits, and wisdom is found in understanding what they are.

Everything is a trade off. We did kaeshiwaza for four hours today. It was great training. I think understanding reversals is absolutely critical if you're to have any hope of making aikido work against non-compliant partners. But that was four hours we didn't spend on randori, or weapons, or any of a half-dozen clusters of techniques. It was also four hours spent *not* fixing the technical errors that make reversals possible, not working at high speed, not studying the subtleties of connection. Very few of us will ever achieve total mastery.

Katherine
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Old 10-23-2011, 07:00 PM   #1552
Gerardo Torres
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
#1542
no better answer since the image doesn't show up LOL

was that image perhaps abput something from this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNAWff9Daqg
to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKkay...eature=related

:-D
joking, just having fun this moment
The image shows fine in my browser (Google Chrome). Anyway, it was a photo of a strawman, to call out the strawman argument in post #1541.
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Old 10-23-2011, 07:05 PM   #1553
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Which, since training time is finite, means that there are always limits, and wisdom is found in understanding what they are.

Everything is a trade off. We did kaeshiwaza for four hours today. It was great training. I think understanding reversals is absolutely critical if you're to have any hope of making aikido work against non-compliant partners. But that was four hours we didn't spend on randori, or weapons, or any of a half-dozen clusters of techniques. It was also four hours spent *not* fixing the technical errors that make reversals possible, not working at high speed, not studying the subtleties of connection. Very few of us will ever achieve total mastery.

Katherine
I know Katherine - to be sure, I am all with you in this.
But you see, I just take the point of views I read here as occasions to elaborate on a problem, and not with the intention of prescribing anything to anybody (which I am in no position to do, and even if I were I would be relcutant to address anybody personally).

Achieving mastery is difficult and probably none of us will ever have enough time and/or find the right dojos to do that.
And certainly I was never passing any judgement about your mastery or lecturing you about any necessity to achieve that.

But I find it important to emphasize that, facing the accusation that aikido does not work "in a real fight" (an accusation that, though unsaid and yet clearly implied, originates from the street world), the only aikido that does not work is the aikido that has not been developed training in a manner geared to work against competent street attackers.

It is not a matter of aikido: it is a matter of how we train with aikido.
If you want an aikido that works in a real situation, you need to train consistently and repeatedly with that type of setting.
If you want not to be intimidated by bigger guys, you need to train with bigger guys.

There is no sure formula to win any fights: there are only formulas to fight any fight, and the name of that formula is: train accordingly.

We have too much aikido in the world that does not even try to train accordingly - and this is why this type of accusation visits aikido so frequently.
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Old 10-23-2011, 07:30 PM   #1554
seank
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

This thread still gives me giggles (happy 11th birthday btw!)

Nowadays I think I tend to doze of right around the time people use the word technique. It still amazes me that the word technique exists in the Aikido lexicon.
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Old 10-23-2011, 07:49 PM   #1555
Ketsan
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I certainly agree that it is possible to apply aikido effectively against larger people. I do it all the time.

But I think you're deluded if you don't think size matters in the context of "on the street" encounters with people who are seriously trying to hurt you.

Under dojo randori conditions, my experience is that when two people have equal skill/rank, a weight difference of 30-40 pounds or so is sufficient to secure a strong advantage for the heavier person. Each additional 30-40 pounds is sufficient to overcome a 2-3 step differential in rank, at least in the mid-kyu to mid-dan range. (Keep in mind that most adult males will outweigh me by at least 40 pounds, and even a 100# difference does not put us into the realm of genetic freaks. I have a lot of experience in this sort of situation.)

However, the lighter person can substantially improve the situation *if* they avoid situations conducive to grappling: I can throw or otherwise disengage from a much larger person than I can pin. So the lessons I take from this are:
* Disengage and get out of there. Trying to kick someone's ass is really dumb.
* Stay aware. It's easier to disengage if they never get a secure grab in the first place.
* Don't get cute. Simple techniques and big muscle movements. Fine motor coordination is very difficult in the middle of an adrenaline dump.

Katherine
Size matters far more in randori than it does in fighting. Randori is the use of rules to create a stalemate situation which forces a struggle for training purposes. That's fine in training but in a fight it's an awesome way to get killed. Fighting requires far more aggression far more violence and far more brutality than is allowed or can happen in randori and more often than not in the dynamics of real fighting the more aggressive and violent person wins.
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Old 10-23-2011, 07:56 PM   #1556
kewms
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Size matters far more in randori than it does in fighting. Randori is the use of rules to create a stalemate situation which forces a struggle for training purposes. That's fine in training but in a fight it's an awesome way to get killed. Fighting requires far more aggression far more violence and far more brutality than is allowed or can happen in randori and more often than not in the dynamics of real fighting the more aggressive and violent person wins.
I agree. That was the point on which I entered this thread. The more aggressive and violent person will, most of the time, be the attacker. (When you look at it, this is a tautology: if he weren't aggressive and violent, he wouldn't be out there attacking people.)

Katherine
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Old 10-23-2011, 08:37 PM   #1557
Ketsan
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I agree. That was the point on which I entered this thread. The more aggressive and violent person will, most of the time, be the attacker. (When you look at it, this is a tautology: if he weren't aggressive and violent, he wouldn't be out there attacking people.)

Katherine
No the people that go around attacking people are the most angry people, not always the most violent or the most aggressive. Half of martial arts after all is becoming habituated to violence such that it doesn't provoke the fight or flight response and the other half is learning to become so aggressive that an opponent is quickly overwhelmed and potentially even killed.

The paradox of this is that learning to do it involves learning to defeat it in yourself so you get past fear based reactions.
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Old 10-24-2011, 02:54 AM   #1558
sakumeikan
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
Joe, it's not a theory. I know what I am saying here.
I normally try not to mention again the fact I have a boxing background - by which I mean an agonistic background (that is, not just hitting a punching bag).

So, I bring that about here only once again simply in order to emphasize and prove that it's not a theory came out of delusional thinking, but from a past of active boxing.

If the mere fact a guy is bigger than you would mean the bigger guy is bound to win, then judging from the boxing categories a welter weight should never fight with a superwelter because there are about 8 pounds of difference between classes, and since size matters those 8 pounds would dictate the outcome. After all, aren't boxing classes separating weights?
So if you weight 4 kilos more than me, you'd beat me automatically...

I can assure you that an experienced boxer who weights 135 pounds may beat up badly, severely, in a no-contest and unilateral serious beating whatever guy who is 250 pounds and has no boxing experience. As a fact, not as a theory.

And equating experience, I can tell you I have seen with my own eyes (you have to trust me here) a feather weight breaking the nose of middle weights during a sparring work out. This not to mention how many welters I have seen sparring successfully with heavy weights.

If you want to beat bigger guys, you have to train in a manner consistent with that goal. If you never do, you never will. But if you do, you do.

It is not size what makes a difference - only training methods make a difference (or a gun...).

ps little guy who won 100 and 200 meters: Pietro Mennea
Dear Alberto,
There are always the odd exception to any rule.Generally speaking as I said ALL thiings being equal the BIGGER guy wins.As far as Pietro Mennea is concerned since he raced in the 70s?would he win against todays musclemen?Its the same with Rocky Marciano, great as he was could he have handled the big lads of today in the Heavy weight division?I knew Anton Geesink, he won the 1964 Gold Medal at Judo.When he walked into a room the room darkened.Not many[if any ]beat him.His size certainly played a part in his wins.Not that he was an unskilled guy, he was very good.
You say training makes the difference.Do you think a little chap trains while the bigger guy just sits about and eats doughnuts?Any competitor be he/she big/small should train hard. You might have had some luck in your own encounters but I remain unconvinced by your theory. Cheers Joe.
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Old 10-24-2011, 04:01 AM   #1559
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Gerardo Torres wrote: View Post
The image shows fine in my browser (Google Chrome). Anyway, it was a photo of a strawman, to call out the strawman argument in post #1541.
Strawman? No, not really.

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Old 10-24-2011, 05:08 AM   #1560
Walter Martindale
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I think that a lot of this is a circular thread being repeated by new folks who (like me) haven't read all 63 pages of the discussion. Much of what is being said in recent days has probably been said at least a few times in the One Thousand Five Hundred Fifty-Nine preceding posts... I suspect the horse is dead, should the flogging continue?
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Old 10-24-2011, 06:02 AM   #1561
Demetrio Cereijo
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Talking Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
I suspect the horse is dead, should the flogging continue?
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange aeons even death may die.

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Old 10-24-2011, 06:48 AM   #1562
grondahl
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

This is an epic thread. Itīs intresting to see the development of the posters and aikiweb at large. Itīs gone from "aikidoka dont need to get into fights due to their suppressed ego" or "Iīll pull of a kaitennage when you try to shoot in" to discussions about training methods at large.

Last edited by grondahl : 10-24-2011 at 06:51 AM.
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Old 10-24-2011, 07:24 AM   #1563
OwlMatt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
Yes to me Aikido must be effective in a martial contest - that is, by that I mean (for, apparently, also meanings of martial seem to vary) against sheer violence and brutality.

I understand your point and I don't contend it: you're entitled to it, and it is respectable.

In my case, however, I am on the page where the only purpose of aikido is that of performing as a self defense method, capable of meeting any challenge that pure violence may pose. Whatever spiritual side practicing aikido may accrue or produce, in my world proves its consistency only when put at the test against physical brutality.

I don't claim that my perspective is better: I am only saying that, in our specific case, we're on two different pages so it is unavoidable there cannot be an effective communications or, better, agreement between us.

In this context, however, I would like to add also that those who, like in this thread, say that aikido "does not work at all in a fight" are those who placed themseleves on my page: this is why I can "relate" with them and it comes, apparently, easier for me to understand the part of truth that is contained in the box of their accusations.

That type of accusation, in fact, does not arrive from a "world" like yours, but from a "world" like mine.
In this world of mine, I do not place myself among those who cast this accusation (perhaps you have misunderstood me like one?), but among those who understand the milieu whence it originated (and I am not alone there, not implying this).

I hope this clarifies my (personal) perspective.
I am of the opinion that someone who is only seeking a "self defense method" should be looking someplace other than aikido.

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Old 10-24-2011, 07:46 AM   #1564
St Matt
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Matthew Story wrote: View Post
I am of the opinion that someone who is only seeking a "self defense method" should be looking someplace other than aikido.
I started Aikido purely for self defense and I am confident that it can work. I train with people that fully resist (one of whom is built like a brick you know what) and I can make most of the techniques work. It doesn't look as pretty as it should but it does work AND he has the advantage of knowing what you are likely to do, an attacker does not and therefore is at a disadvantage. We also practise a few strikes, kicks etc so we can distract the attacker. Therefore I am confident my Aikido will help me if/when its needed.
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Old 10-24-2011, 08:36 AM   #1565
OwlMatt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Matt Bostock wrote: View Post
I started Aikido purely for self defense and I am confident that it can work. I train with people that fully resist (one of whom is built like a brick you know what) and I can make most of the techniques work. It doesn't look as pretty as it should but it does work AND he has the advantage of knowing what you are likely to do, an attacker does not and therefore is at a disadvantage. We also practise a few strikes, kicks etc so we can distract the attacker. Therefore I am confident my Aikido will help me if/when its needed.
I don't doubt that aikido training can have real self-defense benefits. But an aikido student is going to spend a lot of time learning stylized techniques and practicing them against stylized attacks, training with and against obsolete weapons, and trying to preserve O Sensei's tradition. Someone who is only interested in efficient, effective self-defense is going to find a lot of things in the average aikido class that are irrelevant to his interests.

That doesn't mean that this theoretical person is wrong for wanting what he wants, or that aikido is wrong for not providing it. I just think the two could find more compatible matches than each other.

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Old 10-24-2011, 08:46 AM   #1566
Ketsan
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Matthew Story wrote: View Post
I don't doubt that aikido training can have real self-defense benefits. But an aikido student is going to spend a lot of time learning stylized techniques and practicing them against stylized attacks, training with and against obsolete weapons, and trying to preserve O Sensei's tradition. Someone who is only interested in efficient, effective self-defense is going to find a lot of things in the average aikido class that are irrelevant to his interests.

That doesn't mean that this theoretical person is wrong for wanting what he wants, or that aikido is wrong for not providing it. I just think the two could find more compatible matches than each other.
Only if he conceptualises Aikido as a grouping of techniques. In actually fact Aikido is by far the most flexible of all the martial arts because it has no techniques, no set forms.
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Old 10-24-2011, 08:50 AM   #1567
grondahl
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Only if he conceptualises Aikido as a grouping of techniques. In actually fact Aikido is by far the most flexible of all the martial arts because it has no techniques, no set forms.
This is just silly. Aikido have lots av techniques and set forms. Even teachers that donīt focuse on waza seem to require a solid understanding of basic techniques from their students.
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Old 10-24-2011, 08:50 AM   #1568
Chris Evans
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

if this thread helps to clear away one person's martial arts delusions then these chronic repetitions maybe of use to one that can "empty their tea cup..."

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
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Old 10-24-2011, 09:57 AM   #1569
Mark Freeman
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote: View Post
I love this thread, please let it never die
Michael,

if you are still reading, you wrote this in 2006. It seems your wish is coming true!

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 10-24-2011, 10:19 AM   #1570
Ketsan
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
This is just silly. Aikido have lots av techniques and set forms. Even teachers that donīt focuse on waza seem to require a solid understanding of basic techniques from their students.
The techniques are not Aikido; they're just provisional forms which are to be discarded as soon as the lessons they teach are learned. It's actually a rather backwards way and hit and miss way of teaching Aikido IMHO but that's another discussion.
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Old 10-24-2011, 10:21 AM   #1571
hallsbayfisherman
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Just new to posting and "wow" a one thread topic going continuously for 11 yrs,that must be some kind of record.Seeing lots of argumental back and forth going on and lots of advice being handed out,some more abrupt than others.Just a quick question for all ,being the topic is "Aikido does not work in a real fight" As anyone posting opinions on what does and doesn't work actually been in any amount of physical confrontations to know what they are actually giving advice on? Just wondering!!!

Regards
WJ
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Old 10-24-2011, 10:42 AM   #1572
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Wayne James wrote: View Post
As anyone posting opinions on what does and doesn't work actually been in any amount of physical confrontations to know what they are actually giving advice on? Just wondering!!!
Hi, welcome to Aikiweb.

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Old 10-24-2011, 10:53 AM   #1573
Richard Stevens
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Wayne James wrote: View Post
Just new to posting and "wow" a one thread topic going continuously for 11 yrs,that must be some kind of record.Seeing lots of argumental back and forth going on and lots of advice being handed out,some more abrupt than others.Just a quick question for all ,being the topic is "Aikido does not work in a real fight" As anyone posting opinions on what does and doesn't work actually been in any amount of physical confrontations to know what they are actually giving advice on? Just wondering!!!

Regards
WJ
I've been in a number of violent situations (spent a few years working in a secure detention facility) and I've been successful utilizing fairly basic judo techniques, which are similar to a number of techniques found in Judo. Mostly elbow and shoulder locks. However, my ability to apply those technique may have been related to the high-pressure randori common to Judo training.

Welcome to Aikiweb WJ, if you see Jake Doyle tell him I said hi!
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Old 10-24-2011, 12:47 PM   #1574
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Only if he conceptualises Aikido as a grouping of techniques. In actually fact Aikido is by far the most flexible of all the martial arts because it has no techniques, no set forms.
Yes, but it also typically is trained within the context of a particular set of rules of etiquette and constraints that can affect the ability of the student to recognize the patterns (or lack thereof), pressures and unconstrained chaos that fighting can be...whatever you consider fighting to be!

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Old 10-24-2011, 12:49 PM   #1575
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Wayne James wrote: View Post
Just new to posting and "wow" a one thread topic going continuously for 11 yrs,that must be some kind of record.Seeing lots of argumental back and forth going on and lots of advice being handed out,some more abrupt than others.Just a quick question for all ,being the topic is "Aikido does not work in a real fight" As anyone posting opinions on what does and doesn't work actually been in any amount of physical confrontations to know what they are actually giving advice on? Just wondering!!!

Regards
WJ
Yes. There are many folks on here with a fair amount of experience in there various experiences from bouncers, to brawlers, to police and military.

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