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Old 01-14-2003, 04:17 PM   #126
shihonage
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Quote:
john rebb (johnny rebb) wrote:
Also, www.senshido.com .
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Old 02-07-2003, 09:10 PM   #127
Detective Dobbs
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"real fights"

Who ever told you the ufc,pride or whatever are real fights is misleading you for probably financial gains through pay-per-view. Or maybe so you can join a jiu-jitsu class and go roll around in the street in a real atercation.The pavement don`t forgive, both people will take a beating. A real fight is missing all the things that make these sports/games games to begain with. Real fights don`t have a referee to save a person introuble,there are no rest periods for water/toilet breaks,no five minute rounds,judges panel. etc Supposedly "no rules" fighting has plenty of rules,in fact too many for me to list. Interesting they may be I certainly like to watch and most often laugh at the so called expert and self proclaimed bad ass that always appear. Most of these guys have no clue as to what a bad ass is.The real bad ass is fighting in a non paid event called a "smoker" behind his favorite bar.Thanx to people like you,smart people like me can watch and wonder how practical it is to wrestle on pavement.Peace
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Old 02-08-2003, 04:14 AM   #128
Kelly Allen
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I gotto hand it to Joey sola that despite the fact he didn't want to here what ppl had to say, he sure started a good thread. It just took me 5 hours to read through all of this thread and there are some insites here that are very well put. Although I couldn't ad anything that hasn't already been said,I would recommend this read to anyone.
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Old 02-08-2003, 06:13 AM   #129
Dennis Hooker
Dojo: Shindai Dojo, Orlando Fl.
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To quote a Shihan friend of mine when ask by a fellow why his Aikido did not work once " Aikido works, Your Aikido don't. Don't confuse the two" H.I.

Dennis Hooker

www.shindai.com

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
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Old 02-10-2003, 08:03 AM   #130
Cyrijl
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joey's right...aikido does not work in a fight. It is not supposed to. However, arrogance and eliteism from the penut gallery is not going to convince him of that either.

melior est canis vivus leone mortuo
Bog svsami!!!
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Old 02-10-2003, 10:49 AM   #131
Dennis Hooker
Dojo: Shindai Dojo, Orlando Fl.
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Perhaps yours don't! Mine does when need be. One does not have to forego ones principles for it to work either. Perhaps our Aikido is different.

Dennis Hooker

www.shindai.com

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
https://www.createspace.com/238049

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Old 02-10-2003, 11:29 AM   #132
paw
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***** rant

I've been hesitating to post this, but well....

Increasingly I've become very concerned about the use of certain catch phrases. "Aikido works, your aikido may not" being one of them (and hereafter refered to as "the phrase").

Often, this expression is used by someone with a good deal of experience and I generally understand the point to be simply: surviving a real-world confrontation takes skill, training, experience and a fair degree of luck. I totally agree with that line of thought.

However, I have heard the phrase repeated in a manner that greatly concerns me. Let me be very clear that I do not believe Dennis is using the phrase in any of these ways.

1. The phrase is used as a way of omitting true responsibility of an instructor to their students. The line of thought is almost like a disclaimer, as if to say, "as an instructor I believe that <insert martial art here> to be effective for real world self-defense. However, the instructor takes no responsibility that training with them for any amount of time will develop skills for real world self-defense."

2. The phrase is used to imply that aikido is a perfect system designed for any and all real world self-defense situation. I have a hard-time believing this. I doubt that aikido was envisioned as an effective means of self-defense while under water, for example. Now, I do believe an arguement could be made that aikido principles are applicable in a self-defense situation, wherever that situation would occur. However, the "word" is not the "thing" and the "description" is never what is "described". If one shows up to aikido class wearing a wet-suit and inquires about the pool, I'm sure they'll be instructed to change into suitable clothing for AIKIDO training.

3. Lots of things work. However, people don't live forever (as far as I know). Sure, tae bo could produce someone who could survive a real world self-defense encounter ... but boxing will develop the same skills in far less time ... and a 1/2 day class in the legal use of chemical sprays will be faster (and more effective) than both. Put it this way, if you want to travel from California, USA to Alberta, Canada of course you can walk there. Me? I'm taking a plane and getting there before you reach the city line. Why? Because of the success rate that nearly anyone can travel from California, USA to Alberta, Canada by plane (demonstrated, consistant examples, plus the ability to quickly and easily verify and recreate) .... there is no such success rate that nearly anyone can actually walk the same distance (a theory with maybe a handful of successful examples).

**** end rant

My honest to goodness opinion. If you want real world self-defense, train for exactly that purpose. Can aikido be used for this? Sure, but I would imagine it would be a very different aikido class than the norm.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 02-10-2003, 12:20 PM   #133
Dennis Hooker
Dojo: Shindai Dojo, Orlando Fl.
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From my personal knowledge this application of the phrase was directed toward a nidan involved in a street fight. More to the point he went to the rescue of a young lady being mugged and after his first unsuccessful attempted at defending himself against what appeared to be a skilled boxer he lost confidence in both himself and his art and lost the fight. His first mistake was fighting. When he admitted to himself there was a fight he gave the other person a possibility to win. The offender got into his mind first and then his body. His Aikido did not work because what he was calling Aikido was not Aikido. In fact by controlling his actions and mind the aggressor was actually demonstrating better use of Aikido than was the potential hero. It was an attempt to use the classroom techniques in a fight. Big mistake. Had he remained calm and used the principles he had been taught the outcome may well have been different. As it proved to be when the next Aikido student stepped into the action and neutralized the attacker but not without harming him. So more to the point Aikido works but "Your Aikido Don't" was meant to suggest that he trust what he knew and practiced and not change it into something it never was and something he never practiced. He could survive and probably prevailed had he not lot his cool and his schooling in his hast to inter a fight. Aikido is not about fighting that is true, but is about surviving.

Dennis Hooker

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
https://www.createspace.com/238049

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Old 02-10-2003, 02:20 PM   #134
opherdonchin
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
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I thought it was something Ikeda said in a seminar once.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 02-10-2003, 02:45 PM   #135
Dennis Hooker
Dojo: Shindai Dojo, Orlando Fl.
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It was said their also. But it was said earler in DC as well.

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
https://www.createspace.com/238049

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Old 02-10-2003, 02:59 PM   #136
shihonage
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Quote:
Dennis Hooker wrote:
As it proved to be when the next Aikido student stepped into the action and neutralized the attacker but not without harming him.
So, the nidan and the "next Aikido student" were walking around, saw a lady being mugged.

Then the nidan says "Stay here, I'll take care of it", goes up to the "mugger" and gets the shit beat out of him.

Then the second guy says "Here, let me try", goes up to the same "mugger" and beats the shit out of him.

Is that how it happened ?
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Old 02-11-2003, 06:28 AM   #137
Dennis Hooker
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Why the attitude?

No, what happened took place outside the dojo. The first guy walked out and saw what was happening and the attempted to stop it. When the next guy came out he did stop it. I don't know what they said but I feel fairly cretin no one talked about beating the shit out of someone because I know the guys.

Dennis Hooker

www.shindai.com

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
https://www.createspace.com/238049

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Old 02-12-2003, 05:30 PM   #138
Johnny Chiutten
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Quote:
(joeysola) wrote:
I have competed in both boxing and wrestling and I am now training in brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I have watched many No Holds Barred competitions, like the UFC, and it is clear to me that Aikido and it's techniques and it's way of training do not prepare anyone to actually fight. I know that Aikido practitioners talk a lot about concepts like spirituality, harmony...etc. but I also hear people talk about how it is a pratical means of self defense. Aikido does not have practical striking techniques or any REAL matwork at all. I would like to know how Aikido can be used as self defense if you cannot grapple or strike.
joeysola. Its obvious that you have no experience or understanding at all to what a real fight (combat) is. Wrestling, boxing, BBJ, UFC etc etc are competitions with rules and regulations and have NO real bearing to real fighting.

I agree that many aikido dojo(and many other styles as well) do not train realistically. Maybe you should look for other aikido dojo that will teach you this.

But every martial art has its value for reality if you specifically train for that. Others have different goals in mind.

You cannot say that one style is better than the other because its always up to the individual that makes the style not the style that makes the man.
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Old 02-12-2003, 08:36 PM   #139
paw
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Johnny,

We've done the "real fight" thing to death, and I've no desire to start again.

However,
Quote:
You cannot say that one style is better than the other because its always up to the individual that makes the style not the style that makes the man.
I cannot disagree with this statement strongly enough. In your very post you stated that different martial arts have different goals. Therefore, given a particular goal, one can determine that arts that have that goal in mind are better than arts that do not.

To make a sporting example, gynmastics is a great endevour. So is dance. Neither is ideal for traversing through a body of water in the fastest, most effecient manner possible. To make an educational example, having knowledge of the law is good and benefits society. Having knowledge of the behavior of animals is also beneficial. Neither is ideal or complete if someone's goal is to fly an airplane.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 02-15-2003, 03:12 PM   #140
Dan Bruce
Dojo: aikido of Commerce Ga.
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Hi I use Aikido in law enforcement, and I see it as a means to quickly disable, and alieviate any further harm from happening to anyone. I am only 5' 5" tall and have brought many a "big" man down in less than a heartbeat. Aikido was NEVER meant as a way to give harm to another, but as a way to prevent physical harm.
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Old 02-15-2003, 08:50 PM   #141
aikido_fudoshin
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There is a difference between budo and sport, and there is a difference between real life and UFC. Aikido's training system is meant to condition you for the heat of the moment, adrenaline pumping situation. This happens when your life or health is faced with serious threat. In this type of situation you will be faced with committed attacks and if your not, then there is probably an opportunity to leave the confrontation.

Other martial arts have lost the aspect of simulating an attack with full intent with their integration into sport. They are training for a totally different situation and this is in part what separates budo from sport. Also, like Gozo Shioda said, when you train for sport, you are training to be at your best for that particular moment. When you train in budo, you are at your best all the time. To me, UFC falls under the sports category.

I would also like to mention that Aikido is not effective unless the Aikidoka has worked hard enough to make the movements natural and this takes much time. I feel many of the people posting here are making uniformed judgments about a martial art they do not have much experience in or are amongst the many who have found Aikido to be too hard and thus discredited it. I'll admit there are some pretty "fluffy" forms of Aikido out there, but by no means are they the majority and many martial arts have this as well.

I always think its funny when people say Aikido is fake, and uke is throwing him/herself around for show. Go and experience a good nikajo, hiji shime, or irimi technique and tell us how fake it is after that.

Osu!
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Old 02-15-2003, 09:26 PM   #142
joesol
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Wink WOW

WOW!!! I started this discussion almost 3 years ago. I cannot believe it is still going. I have not been back to visit this site in a very long time so my old account was deactivated. I signed up for a new user name and login and will try and read through all of this and get back into the mix.
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Old 02-16-2003, 12:12 PM   #143
Roy Dean
 
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Bryan,

"Aikido's training system is meant to condition you for the heat of the moment, adrenaline pumping situation."

So does competition, to a far greater degree of intensity than any Aikido class I've ever attended (including my own Shodan examination).

"Other martial arts have lost the aspect of simulating an attack with full intent with their integration into sport."

Actually, sport is one of the only arenas in which you can receive ACTUAL attacks with real intent (admittedly within specific parameters, depending on the discipline).

"When you train in budo, you are at your best all the time."

I strongly disagree. The body cannot be at the height of its physical powers at all times, or martial athletes would take advantage of this fact and never cycle their training. I think what you are suggesting is that budo practitioners are able to maintain a relatively high baseline level of fitness.

I agree, however, the fitness level of competitive martial athletes (aka sport practitioners) has, in my personal experience, been at a far higher level than budo practitioners. Even in the offseason (if there is one), or while resting their bodies in a down cycle of their training, sport practitioners are generally at a higher level of fitness level than their budo counterparts.

Many may disagree, but investigate it for yourself. Enter a kickboxing or grappling competition, and notice if your feel any adrenaline surges beyond a normal Aikido class. Feel the intent of your opponent. Note your own fitness level at the end of your fight, and contrast it with your opponent's. Observe the physiques of the martial competitors. Would they stand out or blend in at your dojo?

I have been on both sides of the fence, and this is my truth based on my personal experiences. Randori, (whether combative, creative, or competitive) is a training method that really develops applicable skills in those that engage in it. Competition is high pressure randori, and an an invaluable training tool.

Don't downplay competition, it can only improve your skills as a martial artist.

Sincerely,

Roy Dean

Discover Who You Are

www.roydeanacademy.com
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Old 02-18-2003, 12:07 AM   #144
Kaj75
Dojo: Lions Den Dallas TX(not Aikido)
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Real street fighting

GUys and girls, I am new here and was just interested in Aikido and wondering how it worked. But while reading this subject for some strange reason I am feeling offended in some weird way. I train at the Lions Den in Dallas TX and no nothing about Aikido I was pretty much just curious about it. Now to the subject that offended me. I've seen a few statments to which I do not agree with. I do not agree that NHB fighting has nothing to do with real fighting. I have seen several guys from my gym fight in competition and I know for a fact that given a street fight sitiation they would have a very very good chance of dominating theyre agresser. Now lets throw the gun sitiation in if the guy is 7 feet away from you pointing gun and willing and wanting to shoot you common get real no of your om my skills are going to defend us from a bullet except talking your way out of it maybe which it doesnt take martial Arts to do that. At the Lions Den we learn stand up, kicks, takedowns,and submissions. Its more of a variety of all the things that have been proven to work. I think that variety is the key. Now back to the NHB thing if Ken Shamrock, Guy Mezger, Travis Luter,and or plenty of other recognized UFC or Pride fighters were to get into a street fight Id' have to say theyre chance of coming out with the upper hand would be about 95% or so.Look sure weapons are pulled these days but if its a nife or what not why would you even push forward with the fight? No point to much danger walk away or run unless you have to then defend yourself. We have selfdefense moves that we are taught as well for certain situations that may occur. Anyway the UFC and or Pride are the closest thing to real fighting that are legal and those guys deserve more respect than what you guys in this thread are giving them.THEY ARE REAL FIGHTERS and if you don't think so I personally invite you to come on down to the DEN and tell Guy or KEN face to face, otherwise.Im not trying to attack anyone or be rude and I have much respect for all martial arts they definitly make you a better person when used properly and give you a greater since of self confidence. I am sure that Aikido is a good practice when used properly and I feel that this guy that is questioning it is going about it all wrong and is kinda rude. thanks for hearing me out sorry for the long post.
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Old 02-20-2003, 07:27 PM   #145
Shoey
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Talking

Hi everyone,

Of course everything iam about to write is of my own view/s.

Surely Aikido must have some effect for defense, Morihei Ueshiba created Aikido after mastering jujitsu kendo and judo and based the art on these "techniques" and his understanding.

Of course the techniques practised in the dojo, unless presented with the scenario in the street ( which would be a stroke of luck) would not be effective, unless it was worked into the situation, witch all martial arts have to work to.

There are tales of Morihei Ueshiba, pinning an ex-sumo wrestler with one finger.

Aikido is also a way to train your mind body and spirt so that you stay calm in situations

"When facing the realm of life and death in the formof an enemy's sword, one must be firmly settled in mind and body" - Morihei Ueshiba

I have read of other quotes that may help with this disscusion, I hopefully will post them soon.

please comment of my views etc

thankyou

SAM
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Old 02-21-2003, 08:46 AM   #146
Jimmy Hattori
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I HATE when people make judgement with lack of research or practice. Any art is hard to attain, but for Muay Thai, BJJ or any practice that are taught to fight in MMA/NHB are fairly easy to attain applicable level. But for Aikido, it takes tremendous amount of practice(keiko). As matter of fact, from reading Japanese Aiki magazine, Aiki is regarded as extended(or higher) level of "Ju"(as Judo, or Jujutsu, meaning soft). There are those who can achieve or enlightened in short period time or other takes longer. But just knowing a few wrist lock and steps, the one should NOT regard that is able to use Aikido, and most of all, SHOULD NOT conclude as "Aikido is not effective".

By the way, I am not an Aikido practitioner.
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Old 02-21-2003, 11:04 AM   #147
aikido_fudoshin
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Quote:
Roy Dean wrote:
So does competition, to a far greater degree of intensity than any Aikido class I've ever attended (including my own Shodan examination).

Actually, sport is one of the only arenas in which you can receive ACTUAL attacks with real intent (admittedly within specific parameters, depending on the discipline).

Many may disagree, but investigate it for yourself. Enter a kickboxing or grappling competition, and notice if your feel any adrenaline surges beyond a normal Aikido class. Feel the intent of your opponent. Note your own fitness level at the end of your fight, and contrast it with your opponent's. Observe the physiques of the martial competitors. Would they stand out or blend in at your dojo?

I have been on both sides of the fence, and this is my truth based on my personal experiences. Randori, (whether combative, creative, or competitive) is a training method that really develops applicable skills in those that engage in it. Competition is high pressure randori, and an an invaluable training tool.

Don't downplay competition, it can only improve your skills as a martial artist.

Sincerely,

Roy Dean
I have been in many sparring matches and I can honestly say I dont feel much more excited there then I do in AIkido (no more excited then when it comes time to do a flip, or jumping back breakfall). The main reason is I know its not a life threatening situation. Sure there is possibility to get hurt but not that badly. You can tap out when ever you want, and the intent to injur is not there. Take Karate tournaments for example, they are based on scoring systems and people do not try to injur their opponent out of respect. Events like UFC, and boxing have more intent to injur and that can make your own adrenaline start pumping but thats not what I was refering to in my previous post.

Aikido trains you for those times when someone else has intent to injur you. Its not about your own adrenaline, its about the attackers. When someone wants to injur you they put more into their strikes, holds, etc., and any Aikidoka knows the more energy someone puts into it the easier they become unbalanced. To give a better example of this: if you have ever been in sparring match that started off friendly, and then someone gets a bit hurt and starts throwing harder attacks then you will have noticed the change in intent. The attacks in Aikido are created to mimic the type of attack that you will be faced with when there is real intent to injur. I think this is why Aikido is not used very much in competition because its very hard to unbalance someone when they are throwing "nothing" attacks at you for the sake of getting a point.

So all in all I was just trying to make a comparison between sport competition and intent to injur and how Aikido accounts for the latter in their training system.

Osu!
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Old 02-24-2003, 01:53 PM   #148
ryujin
 
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As someone who worked as a bouncer in a club that booked hard core punk and metal bands, aikido does work. In the one year that I worked there, I was the only bouncer who was never hit and I escorted the most people out.

Carl Bilodeau
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō
Renshinkan

"Yield to temptation it may not pass your way again." - Robert Heinlein
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Old 02-24-2003, 05:51 PM   #149
Mel Barker
Dojo: University of Louisville Aikido Club
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Quote:
Carl Bilodeau (ryujin) wrote:
As someone who worked as a bouncer in a club that booked hard core punk and metal bands, aikido does work. In the one year that I worked there, I was the only bouncer who was never hit and I escorted the most people out.
Carl, how long had you practiced aikido at that time?

Mel
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Old 02-27-2003, 05:22 PM   #150
JasonDelucia
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if you enter all situations with the same mind you will not be rattled.if you train with the true objective of the art instead of riding the compulsion to fulfill someone else's need for violence,you will be calm .the thing that happens to many is that they lose their original mind because ,they want to make a good show ,or they want to show off ,or they use negetive emotions to fuel their spirit.negetive emotions inherently cause over stimulation which should be the last resort ,not the first.when times are desparate you do what you must ,that goes without saying,but with training you use the same mind every where
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