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Old 05-09-2009, 10:10 AM   #1351
Suru
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

It actually could be possible for an Aikidoka in the octagon to pin and increase pain until the other can't take it anymore and taps out. There are many other angles to it, I'm sure. But for those who believe in O'Sensei's words, such a fight would be the antithesis of Aikido philosophy.

Drew
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Old 05-09-2009, 10:24 AM   #1352
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Drew,

I think that is a personal choice someone has to make.

I personally believe that NOT being a vegetarian is the antithesis of aikido philosophy. Hence, I am a vegetarian.

however, I don't think that most people would necessarily agree with my personal choice on how to practice my spirituality or philosophy.

I think it is important not to fall into the trap of becoming dogmatic when looking at the underlying philosopphy.

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Old 05-09-2009, 05:12 PM   #1353
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Drew,

I think that is a personal choice someone has to make.

I personally believe that NOT being a vegetarian is the antithesis of aikido philosophy. Hence, I am a vegetarian.

however, I don't think that most people would necessarily agree with my personal choice on how to practice my spirituality or philosophy.

I think it is important not to fall into the trap of becoming dogmatic when looking at the underlying philosopphy.
Do you think it's possible to practice any kind of martial art using Aikido philosophy?

In the old days, O Sensei's students were from other art, weren't they? To practice Aikido, did they have to abandon their original martial arts?
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Old 05-09-2009, 05:26 PM   #1354
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Sure Minh,

I think what he did was develop a methodology or practice that he felt reinforce/communicated his philosophy.

Aikido does do this very well I think.

What we have to be careful is applying the logic that it is exclusive and limiting.

There are many ways to learn the lessons concepts and emulate them.

Just as there are many different churches that ways of worship.

People find meaning and inspiration in many different ways to reach the same point.

What I am cautious of, and I think this seems to be a an issue for many folks is to take a dogmatic stance and to say things like "aikido is about evasion" "Aikido is about blending" "Aikido is about reacting" "Aikido is not about pre-emption" "you can't attac first using Aikido Philosophy".

In reality, IMO, Aikido is about all those things. To me what it is about is learning how to use those things effectively and appropriately and to gain an appreciation and understanding of the whole universe that encompasses violence/compassion.

As we gain skill and experience we can make better or more appropriate choices than maybe we made in the past.

The philosophy does not have to be confined to one art, but certainly I think the way we practice certainly is focused on this very much.

Just can't get dogmatic and absolute!

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Old 05-09-2009, 09:42 PM   #1355
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
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Sure Minh,

Just can't get dogmatic and absolute!
Can't get absolute? So then you wouldn't say it's completely, absolutely against Aikido philosophy to walk up to an innocent, random old lady and break her jaw with a yokomen-uchi?

"Just CAN'T get dogmatic and absolute" sounds like an absolute statement to me.

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Old 05-10-2009, 01:19 AM   #1356
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Well, yes, there is a bit of a paradox about the dogma of non-dogma. Sure.

However, what is wrong about what I said?

Who said anything about attacking an innocent old lady?

There is a set of universal ethics I believe that most folks follow in the world. Things such as "be kind". do unto others....

a better example might be a terrorist on an airplane that is threatening to kill folks. I would say that it certainly is within the boundaries of aiki philosophy to "strike first".

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Old 05-10-2009, 02:20 AM   #1357
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
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a better example might be a terrorist on an airplane that is threatening to kill folks. I would say that it certainly is within the boundaries of aiki philosophy to "strike first".
This caught my attention in this huge thread. Is Aikido open to that much room when it comes to personal interpretation, and opinion? The starter line of this thread is opinion. We can say, yes it is true that Aikido doesn't work in a fight, because of Aikido's philosophy against fighting. Protecting one's self is a different story. I think that is where things get mixed up. It all goes back to the redundant but true perspective that it is the effectiveness of the art is dependant on the person who practices it. It goes also, along the lines of that saying Randy Jackson, spouts on American Idol that if your a good enough singer you can sing anything even the alphabet. Then the other variable is the person your fighting. This is true for any fighting system.
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Old 05-10-2009, 03:08 AM   #1358
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
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Sure Minh,

I think what he did was develop a methodology or practice that he felt reinforce/communicated his philosophy.

Aikido does do this very well I think.

What we have to be careful is applying the logic that it is exclusive and limiting.

There are many ways to learn the lessons concepts and emulate them.

Just as there are many different churches that ways of worship.

People find meaning and inspiration in many different ways to reach the same point.

What I am cautious of, and I think this seems to be a an issue for many folks is to take a dogmatic stance and to say things like "aikido is about evasion" "Aikido is about blending" "Aikido is about reacting" "Aikido is not about pre-emption" "you can't attac first using Aikido Philosophy".

In reality, IMO, Aikido is about all those things. To me what it is about is learning how to use those things effectively and appropriately and to gain an appreciation and understanding of the whole universe that encompasses violence/compassion.

As we gain skill and experience we can make better or more appropriate choices than maybe we made in the past.

The philosophy does not have to be confined to one art, but certainly I think the way we practice certainly is focused on this very much.

Just can't get dogmatic and absolute!
That is a nice answer, Kevin. However, my question is not directly answered.
By the way, I don't know how you can apply Aikido ethics into your other martial arts without adjusting it a little bit. I assume that you are a completely relaxed and non-competitive person.

To me, it's never the case. I used to practice Karate for two years before I knew about Aikido. When I learned Aikido for a few months, I have decided to withdraw from Karate. I don't like competition idea, but practicing Karate gave me that temptation.

Sparring in Karate, from my perspective, is not a friendly randori. It triggers me the desire to win over my partner. Besides, using protective tools intensifies that desire. It means I don't have to worry about hurting him or her. I could feel the aggression when I sparred with my partners even though I knew that Karate is not about it.

In short, it's not Karate that stirs up my will to win. It's the practice of sparring does. Perhaps, if I'm lucky to learn Karate that is just completely non-competitive self defense like Aikido, I may stick with this martial art. It's not bad. It's just me who can't harmonize both arts.

Besides Aikido, Jujitsu (not Brazilian one) is the only art which I think is more compatible to Aikido. It's surely combative, but it's just about how to protect one's self from aggressors, not competing with them. Compared to Karate or Judo, Jujitsu doesn't seem to have a clear philosophy, but at least the practice itself is highly unlikely to cause aggression or desire to win over someone.

It seems like I fall into the dogma you mention, don't I?
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Old 05-10-2009, 11:10 AM   #1359
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Aiki is effective immediately and makes it very difficult to fit in for a throw and the power in the hits and kicks work from a distance or close in. I've not personally met the man who doubted it after crossing hands. This to include senior teachers in the art. No...I am NOT taking about aikido waza, or any specific waza, just the way of aiki being used against "Aikido" technique...or anyone's technique in freestyle and having the aikido teachers on their backs looking up everytime.
The ethics of winning belong to the one who can prevail. It is meaningless to debate the decision of ending a conflict if you do not have the means to do so. Ueshiba never advocated being a peacenik. He very well understood peace through victory. His decision to throw out people instead of the more classical model of drawing them in was a shift in focus toward that goal. But never-the-less it was about "power" controlling "power", not avoidance.

Aiki...do IS judo, IS MMA, IS sword. The reason most do not understand what they are missing is that they continue to think in terms of waza and making themselves "look like" their teachers and the Ukemi model.
For most, that mindset alone disqualifies them from ever being able to deliver real power in any venue. Aikido "waza" will will be stressed to the max in judo, and MT venues, and will most certainly fail in an MMA environment with anyone really competant. AIki power will not ans will function in any environment, from MMA to taichi, bagua etc..
It is really a decision to learn aiki power. Or to take the easy route and adhere to aikido waza, aikido movement and the Ukemi ttraining model. Everyone can do what they will. Its just sad to see Ueshiba's art and power reduced to a collection of waza.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-10-2009 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 05-10-2009, 11:18 AM   #1360
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
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Aiki is effective immediately and makes it very difficult to fit in for a throw and the the power in the hits and kicks work from a distance or close in. I've not personally met the man who doubted it after crossing hands. No...I am NOT taking about aikido waza, or any specific waza, just the way of aiki.
The ethics of winning belong to the one who can prevail. It is meaningless to debate the decision of ending a conflict if you do not have the means to do so. UEshiba never advocated being a peacenik. He very well understood peace through victory.
Cheers
Dan
"Never defeated means never fighting."
--Morihei Ueshiba O'Sensei

Drew
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Old 05-10-2009, 11:44 AM   #1361
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Ueshiba fought all the time and took free challenges by men who wanted to see him undone. Why would he do that? Because he was first and foremost a martial artist. It is clear he was unconcerned with the background of those coming to challenge him.

"Never defeated means never fighting" ....direct force with direct force.
There is a reason he stated "aiki does not resist" and it has not... one...single...thing to do with big evasive body turns or the uke throwing themselves at you like a crash test doll. It was about power. Power to absorb within you and to send or emit. It is a type of power that most do not know. As a principle it works standing toe to toe with a boxer or with a judoka or with a top level Tai chi teacher and absorbing and redirecting and hitting with tremendous power. Which is why he also said "Aiki in strikes can kill." and it was how he broke the hip of a judoka at the Kodokan in shiai with his hand.
He....knew exactly what he was talking about. Sadly, what we saw at the later stages in his life with the big loopy movements and no touch throws had more to do with the cooperation and ukemi of his followers then it did with him.

The peacenik / pacifist Ueshiba was not a man who ever existed. "That man" was an invention by followers of a later time. The martial artists who could stop aggression and stop some of the best MAers in Japan at the time was the model most should be shooting for. Unfortunately that path is not to be found in the waza of his son.
For this reason I chose to practice the way of Aiki instead of the aiki way. In the fullness of time, it...has fulfilled it's promise.

Cheers
Dan
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Old 05-10-2009, 12:02 PM   #1362
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Minh wrote:

Quote:
It seems like I fall into the dogma you mention, don't I?
Yes, I think you probably do a little. No big deal though. I will try and see if I can write a coherent response.

Myopia comes to mind.

I think we as humans have a tendency to develop this when looking at problems. We tend to focus greatly on the small details of what we seemingly have knowledge of and what tools we have immediately in front of us (or that we don't). and we limit our ability to do things or respond because of those perceived constraints.

An example would be having some screws, a hammer, and a board as resources.

The situation will dictate an appropriate response.

If we have a leak in a dyke that we immediately need to fix then one way would be to hammer those screws directly into the wall to stop the water flow and the job would be accomplished. It may not hold for 100 years, but it holds good enough to save the town until we can get a permanent fix.

OR, we could discuss how it is really not appropriate to hammer screws because the guy that invented the screws intended for them to be screwed in by a screwdriver and therefore, we would be in violation of his intent when he invented the screw.

Is that really why he invented the screws? that is, so they could be screwed the right way?

Or did he invent screws to fasten thing together to complete a job?

I believe we need to approach how we look at training and the use of methodology a little more this way.

In aikido, it seems more than any art I study, we tend to focus on making sure that we always have a that screwdriver at the expense of the situation. (that is we develop situational myopia...no, we ENCOURAGE situational myopia!).

(I hope that makes sense)

in essence what we should be doing is exploring. Picking up the hammer and looking at all the possibilities and situations in which we could use it (framing it against our personal ethical framework).

Picking up the screwdriver. seeing that you can pry paint lids with it, stab open oil cans, screw with it...etc.

Not constantly studying the "Art of screwing a screw" until we perfect the exact amount of energy, pressure, and turns necessary to get a #10 screw through a 1" Oak board.

I am not advocating turning away from the art of mastery, as I believe there is great value in "going deep" and mastering something.

However, if that mastery only allows you to ever see one dimension of a function at the expense of breadth, then what have we really mastered???

I am getting off the subject, sorry.

Anyway, I think that we this kinda relates to the issue at hand. I agree that it might seem difficult and incongruent to practice karate as you state above and figure out a way to reconcile aikido in that context. It certainly was for me.

What clicked eventually was that as I gained different perspectives, first from Karate, then from Aikido, and now from BJJ and Judo, that the situation dictates the tools and response. and I am okay with all of it now!

I don't practice karate anymore as a methodology as it does not suit my training objectives at this point in time. That said, in a good karate dojo, I see no conflcts philosophically. You might equate karate to the art of learning to use the hammer, whereas you might equate aikido to the art of learning to use the screwdriver.

Read what Dan Harden wrote above. He is correct and is saying the same thing I think.

All this came abundantly clear to me in the last 5 or 6 years as I had to take my past martial arts background and pit it against honest, young aggression and demonstrate to Soldiers how this stuff worked...and after 12 years of very rigorous traditional martial arts study, I could not and had my ass handed to me day after day.

Theoretically I understood alot about martial arts and could even demonstrate key concepts very well in a static environment. In reality though I had nothing of real value.

Having the ability and choice to do stuff is of paramount importance. possessing real power and real skills. They can come from karate, aikido, MT, boxing, what not....it is not important how you gain them.

Synthesizing it back into something you can use, teach, and influence the world with is most important.

It is about building you tool kit.

How you choose to use those tools, that is framing against your personal values, ethics, morales...is up to you.

However if you limit yourself to a myopic view constrained by a perception of what is acceptable and not acceptable within the constraints of a particular dogma...well you are going to set yourself up for failure when someone you meet does not particularly understand or agree with your dogma! Then you have real problems!

I hope this helps explain my perspective some!

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Old 05-10-2009, 12:24 PM   #1363
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

In my post #1360
The last line of the second paragraph should have said

AIki power will function in any environment, from MMA to taichi, bagua etc..
Just wanted to be clear.

Examples like punching through a boxer's punch or karateke's punch; with all their power coming to nuaght to stop it, or with a Judoka's throw attempt ending in them throwing themselves against your body. Aiki, in the end is about power, absorbing redirecting, dispersing and blowing right through.
yet it is exeedingly soft.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 05-10-2009, 12:46 PM   #1364
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Dan, I am really hoping I can make it up in August to train with you.

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Old 05-10-2009, 10:13 PM   #1365
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I have read Dan's posts with interest. I have a question. Dan you speak of Alki power, I will assume that is a typo (I make allot ) and you mean Aiki power. My question very simply is do you see Aiki power something that can be measured on a spectrum, having different degrees, frequencies, intensities, varieties, and that kind of thing, or the opposite? Oh, and can it be defined, of course. If so what would be the defination? Because you state it is something universal, something like a universal joint, or tool? An instrument that can be applied to all things. Thus, the origin of my question. To get a better, say compelet understanding of our explaination.

Last edited by Buck : 05-10-2009 at 10:17 PM.
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Old 05-11-2009, 01:59 AM   #1366
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
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In my post #1360
Aiki, in the end is about power, absorbing redirecting, dispersing and blowing right through.
yet it is exeedingly soft.
Cheers
Dan
Well, is your Aiki concept the aiki in Aikijujitsu or Aikido? I don't have a deep knowledge in martial arts, but I do know there is a difference between Aikido and Aikijujitsu. O Sensei created Aikido under the inspiration of Daito Ryu Aikijujitsu, but LOVE is his intention. Aikido is about harmonizing a person with one's self, the universe, and other people. It's also about controlling aggressors' attacking movements until they give up their aggression.

I watched some Aikijujitsu clips on youtube. Its techniques are very powerful and can kill people. I think the point is if a martial practitioner is enlightened about the Aiki concept as you describe without having a solid moral in his heart, he can kill his enemies.
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Old 05-11-2009, 06:27 AM   #1367
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
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(snip for length)

It is about building you tool kit.

How you choose to use those tools, that is framing against your personal values, ethics, morales...is up to you.

However if you limit yourself to a myopic view constrained by a perception of what is acceptable and not acceptable within the constraints of a particular dogma...well you are going to set yourself up for failure when someone you meet does not particularly understand or agree with your dogma! Then you have real problems!

I hope this helps explain my perspective some!
and

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I have read Dan's posts with interest. I have a question. Dan you speak of Alki power, I will assume that is a typo (I make allot ) and you mean Aiki power. My question very simply is do you see Aiki power something that can be measured on a spectrum, having different degrees, frequencies, intensities, varieties, and that kind of thing, or the opposite? Oh, and can it be defined, of course. If so what would be the defination? Because you state it is something universal, something like a universal joint, or tool? An instrument that can be applied to all things. Thus, the origin of my question. To get a better, say compelet understanding of our explaination.
and

Quote:
Minh Nguyen wrote: View Post
Well, is your Aiki concept the aiki in Aikijujitsu or Aikido? I don't have a deep knowledge in martial arts, but I do know there is a difference between Aikido and Aikijujitsu. O Sensei created Aikido under the inspiration of Daito Ryu Aikijujitsu, but LOVE is his intention. Aikido is about harmonizing a person with one's self, the universe, and other people. It's also about controlling aggressors' attacking movements until they give up their aggression.

I watched some Aikijujitsu clips on youtube. Its techniques are very powerful and can kill people. I think the point is if a martial practitioner is enlightened about the Aiki concept as you describe without having a solid moral in his heart, he can kill his enemies.
Aiki is *not* a tool. It isn't waza. It isn't something you *do*. It's something you *are*. For the sake of thinking "outside the box" or of something you may have no experience with, please don't associate aiki with techniques or tools. It isn't either of them.

Aiki is what transforms your body, transforms *you*, your being.

There is no building a tool kit, no using tools appropriately or in different fashions, no universal instrument in aiki. Aiki rebuilds *you* so that whatever tool you decide to use, you use that tool more powerfully (in a budo sense).

If you want to see aiki in action, search youtube for the vid where Ueshiba is sitting and people are trying to push him over. If you want to read about aiki in action, read the thread about Push Test and Ueshiba. Because Ueshiba is showing the world aiki in its glory.

Think about that. All the force of people pushing and there sits or stands Ueshiba. He uses no tools, no waza, no techniques, no universal instrument, but yet, he takes away uke's strength. More than that, he takes away uke's "will" to attack. And he does it without any kind of technique. As he's quoted in the Tenryu incident. He could not push me over because I knew the secret of aiki.

Just where is all that energy going from those pushing? What's happening? Why is it that Ueshiba viewed what he was doing as aiki, when he wasn't doing technique at all? That many complained he never repeated techniques? Does that sound like building tools to use? Universal instruments?

As Tanahashi said (paraphrased) in the YouTube video, we commonly pushed on Ueshiba -- I don't know why.

Perhaps the answer is exactly what Ueshiba stated -- It's the secret of aiki. Perhaps the gem, the gold, the treasure, the very core of Ueshiba's skill is that secret. And perhaps he lived it because it wasn't waza to him, it wasn't a tool to him -- He, well, as he stated -- Aiki, I am aiki!

So, perhaps that common thing, that simple demonstration -- all those push tests that he had people do ... maybe, if you step outside the box you've labelled "aikido" ... maybe that "secret of aiki" can be found in what Ueshiba's body skills are doing. All without tools, waza, instruments, etc.
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Old 05-11-2009, 06:33 AM   #1368
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Minh,

Most aikijujitsu out there is crap and most that is on you tube demonstrates techniques that are complete and utterly void of real power and aiki. again crap.

That said, do you not think it is a requirement to possess power and choose not to use it. Or to ignore it, and pretend that you have it and pretend that you have the ability of choice.

I think there is a quote out there concerning the definition of a pacifist as being someone that has the ability, but chooses not to use it. Everybody else are simply wannabes and posers.

There is nothing wrong (and really everything right) about the love, peace, and harmony stuff.

However, I think aikido has suffered greatly from revisionist thinking by folks (many higher ups too) in trying to only teach love, peace, and harmony in their aikido at the expense of developing real ability and power (lethality).

Either they do it intentionallly or the learned it that way. Regardless, there is also alot of crap that makes for a nice bed time story where everybody in aiki land lives happily ever after!

There is an yin and a yang to everything and we need to study both sides in order to have balance.

I agree with your least paragraph though that you need to have a solid morality and practice with love and compassion.

It should not come at the expense of good, solid training.

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Old 05-11-2009, 06:40 AM   #1369
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

No issues Mark. I get what you are saying and you are correct of course.

I think though in the case of what I wrote it can be seen as a tool. Semantics.

Frequently we have had these discussions about how technique is different from aiki and that is where we have had the majority of the big debates here.

I think to keep things descriptive and simple that it is a good analogy to describe things in terms of a toolbox.

AIki, of course, is a connected and holilistic concept/principle and is not one particular thing to be pulled out as say a technique. Got it.

However, training aiki, as you know requires a very focused and deliberate study. In that sense you can look at it as developing the tool of aiki.

just like striking and kicking skills.

Just like jiujitsu skills.

I think in my case at least, it is a semantical difference.

I do appreciate your concerns as it is important to understand that aiki is indeed a holistic concept.

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Old 05-11-2009, 08:41 AM   #1370
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Hello Mark,

Very interesting post. Like many other members, I am glad that you still post, despite the recent issues about aikido / non-aikido etc. Your own training with Dan Harden yields skills that others need to know about, even if they do not / will not practice these skills.

I have been researching kotodama for my next column. I know that William Gleason also has trained / is training with Dan and I think you might be aware that he has also written a new book about kotodama. His training with Dan was probably too late to include insights gathered from Dan that might affect what he has written about kotodama, for I believe (deep down) that the book is not a particularly good advert for the skills that Dan teaches. It is way over the top and assumes far too much knowledge about a certain idea of Japanese culture that has largely been lost.

A few more comments (as devil's advicate ), given below and marked PAG.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Aiki is *not* a tool. It isn't waza. It isn't something you *do*. It's something you *are*. For the sake of thinking "outside the box" or of something you may have no experience with, please don't associate aiki with techniques or tools. It isn't either of them.

Aiki is what transforms your body, transforms *you*, your being.
PAG. Why have you put your answers ["something you *do*; It's something you *are*; *you*"] within stars? Is it because you are using *do*, *are* and *you* outside their usual meaning? I think you need to explain this. I believe that Aikiweb users take too many liberties with the normal conventions of language--and expect other AikiWeb readers to accept the liberties they themselves take. (After all, it's all about Aiki, isn't it, which has to be a 'good' thing? I disagree.)

With respect, you sound very much like Kukai (aka Kobo Daishi), when he explained the Shingon doctrine of Enlightenment in this Body (sokushin jobutsu). Kukai had the experience to walk the talk, as had Nakamura Tempu, from his experiences in India.

You obviously believe that Aiki is transforming your own being So, I can ask you the same questions as someone might have asked Kukai. (Note also that Kukai gave some answers).
How can you prove that you have the truth about Aiki? Do you think you are really enlightened about Aiki? You talk about Aiki as something you ARE and not something you DO, but how can you show me that you are not as deluded as the rest? To put it bluntly, why should I buy the AIKI brand used car (the new form of training) that you are trying to sell me? And the answer: 'Come and train with Dan, and you will find out', is obviously not acceptable, at least initially.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
There is no building a tool kit, no using tools appropriately or in different fashions, no universal instrument in aiki. Aiki rebuilds *you* so that whatever tool you decide to use, you use that tool more powerfully (in a budo sense).
PAG. However, if I tell you that O Sensei actually crafted waza as a tool kit, in order to show a new way of achieving 'Enlightenment in this Body', what would be your response? You might respond, 'Prove it to me', and I would show you the same tapes. In all the tapes O Sensei demonstrates what he demonstrates by means of waza. You might respond, 'Ah, but the waza O Sensei shows do not really matter: they are like icing on the cake. But you need to show more clearly than you have done so far that O Sensei regarded waza as having no value. I tend to believe that O Sensei regarded waza as a kind of mudra: the gestures in Shingon Buddhism. I am not sure whether he worried about their martial effectiveness (I think he NEVER worried about these questions after becoming member of Omoto). But he did worry about the effectiveness of his 'divine waza' in setting the world to rights.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
If you want to see aiki in action, search youtube for the vid where Ueshiba is sitting and people are trying to push him over. If you want to read about aiki in action, read the thread about Push Test and Ueshiba. Because Ueshiba is showing the world aiki in its glory.
PAG. No. I do not think so. You are assuming far too much about Ueshiba's intentions.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Think about that. All the force of people pushing and there sits or stands Ueshiba. He uses no tools, no waza, no techniques, no universal instrument, but yet, he takes away uke's strength. More than that, he takes away uke's "will" to attack. And he does it without any kind of technique. As he's quoted in the Tenryu incident. He could not push me over because I knew the secret of aiki.
PAG. So do we reduce aikido training to the push test? What else do we do?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Just where is all that energy going from those pushing? What's happening? Why is it that Ueshiba viewed what he was doing as aiki, when he wasn't doing technique at all? That many complained he never repeated techniques? Does that sound like building tools to use? Universal instruments?
PAG. Wait a minute. Ueshiba always did techniques. You are using the example of the jo exercise to build a whole world view of aiki, without techniques, that goes contrary to what Ueshiba himself (and Takeda before him) actually showed. And he did view what he was doing as aiki. It is in the Takemusu Aiki discourses.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
As Tanahashi said (paraphrased) in the YouTube video, we commonly pushed on Ueshiba -- I don't know why.
PAG. Don't you think that Tanahashi should have thought more carefully about WHY they could not push him over? After all, the deshi were not stupid, were they?.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Perhaps the answer is exactly what Ueshiba stated -- It's the secret of aiki. Perhaps the gem, the gold, the treasure, the very core of Ueshiba's skill is that secret. And perhaps he lived it because it wasn't waza to him, it wasn't a tool to him -- He, well, as he stated -- Aiki, I am aiki!
PAG. And Tanahashi and the other deshi (including Saito, who trained with Ueshiba in Iwama every day), did not realize this? Your description sounds too much like the aikido version of Indiana Jones and the Aiki Holy Grail.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
So, perhaps that common thing, that simple demonstration -- all those push tests that he had people do ... maybe, if you step outside the box you've labelled "aikido" ... maybe that "secret of aiki" can be found in what Ueshiba's body skills are doing. All without tools, waza, instruments, etc.
PAG. Yes, the push test seems very compelling and it might be a good idea to tslk to the surviving deshi who were ukes when he did the jo demonstration. As I stated, it's all about the quality of the used car you are selling.

Finally, I should state that (1) yours was a very refreshing post, in terms of the thread and (2) that Mike Sigman was definitely on to something when he stated, in many, many posts, that what was actually happening had to be explained in such a way that it could be repeated and progress monitored. This is entirely in line with Kukai's notion that enlightenment is something that one can see actually happening: it can be monitored and judged by someone outside the individual's 'charmed' circle.

Very best wishes (and I plan to visit the States as soon as I can to do some hands-on training ).

PAG

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 05-11-2009 at 08:48 AM.

P A Goldsbury
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Old 05-11-2009, 10:30 AM   #1371
MM
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Hello Mark,

Very interesting post. Like many other members, I am glad that you still post, despite the recent issues about aikido / non-aikido etc. Your own training with Dan Harden yields skills that others need to know about, even if they do not / will not practice these skills.

I have been researching kotodama for my next column. I know that William Gleason also has trained / is training with Dan and I think you might be aware that he has also written a new book about kotodama. His training with Dan was probably too late to include insights gathered from Dan that might affect what he has written about kotodama, for I believe (deep down) that the book is not a particularly good advert for the skills that Dan teaches. It is way over the top and assumes far too much knowledge about a certain idea of Japanese culture that has largely been lost.

A few more comments (as devil's advicate ), given below and marked PAG.
Hello Peter,
Thank you very much. In regards to your next column, ugh, I'm still digesting the last one. Seriously, I am looking forward to it.

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
PAG. Why have you put your answers ["something you *do*; It's something you *are*; *you*"] within stars? Is it because you are using *do*, *are* and *you* outside their usual meaning? I think you need to explain this. I believe that Aikiweb users take too many liberties with the normal conventions of language--and expect other AikiWeb readers to accept the liberties they themselves take. (After all, it's all about Aiki, isn't it, which has to be a 'good' thing? I disagree.)
I use the asterisks to make note of the differences between "do" and "you". I think that people see techniques and waza as being aiki. Or small hand movements. Or moving off line and blending. These are all things that one does. Instead, I view aiki as a core being. I wanted to make sure that people noticed my views of that difference, so I used asterisks.

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
With respect, you sound very much like Kukai (aka Kobo Daishi), when he explained the Shingon doctrine of Enlightenment in this Body (sokushin jobutsu). Kukai had the experience to walk the talk, as had Nakamura Tempu, from his experiences in India.

You obviously believe that Aiki is transforming your own being So, I can ask you the same questions as someone might have asked Kukai. (Note also that Kukai gave some answers).
How can you prove that you have the truth about Aiki? Do you think you are really enlightened about Aiki? You talk about Aiki as something you ARE and not something you DO, but how can you show me that you are not as deluded as the rest? To put it bluntly, why should I buy the AIKI brand used car (the new form of training) that you are trying to sell me? And the answer: 'Come and train with Dan, and you will find out', is obviously not acceptable, at least initially.
Wow, I can say for sure that I've never been compared to Kukai. Thank you. (I think).

I can only prove my views on aiki at this point in time with my abilities so far. As I've noted on YouTube, I progress little by little. Parts of that progression are testing my abilities on people not training with me. For example, joint locks. I had a large, muscular man who worked as a prison guard try joint locks and he failed. I had a nidan from an aikido school try them. Didn't work either. I'm on one foot in a nikkyo lock (the one where my hand is controlled at the shoulder, my arm bent, and the other person has their hand on my crooked elbow) and my center is intact, my mobility is fine, and I have no pain. I have had someone push full force on my outstretched hand and I didn't step.

In part, my answer is that these things are something I am doing internally and as my body rebuilds itself, I do them better. I'm at a point in my training where I am starting to be able to work dynamically.

I ask myself the question about delusions daily. And to keep me humble, I test myself using people outside my training. Yes, I fail. Yes, I succeed. But, the truth is in my hands and my training. My delusions shatter rather forcefully when I fail. And I am bolstered by my success.

Truth and enlightenment? I go by what I have experienced, what I have deduced, what I have researched, and finally, by the progress I have made in what I have become. I put my research, deductions and progress in my writings, but do not expect to prove them to anyone. I'll leave that to each person's own hands.

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
PAG. However, if I tell you that O Sensei actually crafted waza as a tool kit, in order to show a new way of achieving 'Enlightenment in this Body', what would be your response? You might respond, 'Prove it to me', and I would show you the same tapes. In all the tapes O Sensei demonstrates what he demonstrates by means of waza. You might respond, 'Ah, but the waza O Sensei shows do not really matter: they are like icing on the cake. But you need to show more clearly than you have done so far that O Sensei regarded waza as having no value. I tend to believe that O Sensei regarded waza as a kind of mudra: the gestures in Shingon Buddhism. I am not sure whether he worried about their martial effectiveness (I think he NEVER worried about these questions after becoming member of Omoto). But he did worry about the effectiveness of his 'divine waza' in setting the world to rights.
My response would be that I agree. I firmly believe that waza is a tool kit. That waza could have been used by Ueshiba in his achieving 'Enlightenment in this Body'. So, then, the difference I have is that, personally, I don't think there is good probability in achieving aiki through waza. Not that it is impossible, but I don't believe the chances are good. I do think waza is valuable. Just not for building aiki. As a means to explore one's aiki, as a means to explore tactics and strategy, as a means to being a bridge between heaven and earth, as a means to martial effectiveness, yes. As a means to learn aiki, no.

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
If you want to see aiki in action, search youtube for the vid where Ueshiba is sitting and people are trying to push him over. If you want to read about aiki in action, read the thread about Push Test and Ueshiba. Because Ueshiba is showing the world aiki in its glory.
PAG. No. I do not think so. You are assuming far too much about Ueshiba's intentions.
Ah, it took me a minute to understand. Please excuse my vagueness. I did not mean that Ueshiba was involved in the showing, nor that was his intentions. I meant that when one views the videos, one is a spectator to viewing Ueshiba showing aiki in its glory. I don't know what Ueshiba's intentions were, I agree.

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
PAG. So do we reduce aikido training to the push test? What else do we do?
Ah, no. Definitely not. Currently, the best example that I can use, the one that I can find the most research on, the one I am working on is the push test. It is by no means inclusive. And I think that quite a few of us are still in a dilemma as to the current view of aikido training and training aiki. I still have difficulties in that regard, but others have found some answers to incorporating both.

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
Just where is all that energy going from those pushing? What's happening? Why is it that Ueshiba viewed what he was doing as aiki, when he wasn't doing technique at all? That many complained he never repeated techniques? Does that sound like building tools to use? Universal instruments?
PAG. Wait a minute. Ueshiba always did techniques. You are using the example of the jo exercise to build a whole world view of aiki, without techniques, that goes contrary to what Ueshiba himself (and Takeda before him) actually showed. And he did view what he was doing as aiki. It is in the Takemusu Aiki discourses.
Hmmm ... vagueness again. Compare Ueshiba doing techniques and Ueshiba being pushed. While the world would view Ueshiba doing techniques as aikido, how many view Ueshiba being pushed as aikido? Research into most aikido schools shows techniques but very few have push tests such as Ueshiba did. So, my point is that Ueshiba still viewed what he was doing in the push tests as aiki, even though he wasn't doing techniques. Ueshiba doing techniques was still aiki, yes. I wasn't contesting that, but, instead contesting the other view of him doing the push tests as being aiki.

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
PAG. Don't you think that Tanahashi should have thought more carefully about WHY they could not push him over? After all, the deshi were not stupid, were they?.
I really don't know, Peter. Especially when Tanahashi goes on to expound upon what he thought was the reason. I find myself disagreeing with his explanation. I can only come up with two things about this area.

1. That these students did in fact know what was going on but did not want to teach anything.
2. That these students had a hard time understanding what was going on. That they didn't quite grasp what Ueshiba was doing (it is internal) and it wasn't clearly taught to them.

I find from my own experience that if I trained with someone who had aiki and I wasn't shown much of what I am now working on, then I would not get it. Ever. Just being uke would leave me clueless without some guidance into what to do internally. My complete and utter respect to those students who did get it without Ueshiba clearly helping them. I know I'd never had gotten it.

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
PAG. And Tanahashi and the other deshi (including Saito, who trained with Ueshiba in Iwama every day), did not realize this? Your description sounds too much like the aikido version of Indiana Jones and the Aiki Holy Grail.
I really don't know. As I wrote above, I can see two different reasons. I'd rather not believe the first. From listening to Tanahashi's reasons, I find that I disagree with him. So, option 2 seems more likely to me.

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Finally, I should state that (1) yours was a very refreshing post, in terms of the thread and (2) that Mike Sigman was definitely on to something when he stated, in many, many posts, that what was actually happening had to be explained in such a way that it could be repeated and progress monitored. This is entirely in line with Kukai's notion that enlightenment is something that one can see actually happening: it can be monitored and judged by someone outside the individual's 'charmed' circle.

Very best wishes (and I plan to visit the States as soon as I can to do some hands-on training ).

PAG
Thank you again. I find that my progress can be repeated and can be seen to be progressing. And that I must use outside sources to keep myself honest and on track. I see the progress I have made in the very short time I have been training and look forward to the year ahead.

Please let me know if you visit the states. I would make the attempt to travel to say hello. And I have a distinct possibility that I will visit Japan next year or the year after. Perhaps sometime in the near future we can have a conversation in person.

Mark
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Old 05-14-2009, 01:05 PM   #1372
DH
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Excellent couple of posts. Might I address a couple of points?

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Hello Mark,
Very interesting post. Like many other members, I am glad that you still post, despite the recent issues about aikido / non-aikido etc. Your own training with Dan Harden yields skills that others need to know about, even if they do not / will not practice these skills…

You obviously believe that Aiki is transforming your own being So, I can ask you the same questions as someone might have asked Kukai. (Note also that Kukai gave some answers).
How can you prove that you have the truth about Aiki? Do you think you are really enlightened about Aiki? You talk about Aiki as something you ARE and not something you DO, but how can you show me that you are not as deluded as the rest? To put it bluntly, why should I buy the AIKI brand used car (the new form of training) that you are trying to sell me? And the answer: 'Come and train with Dan, and you will find out', is obviously not acceptable, at least initially.

PAG. However, if I tell you that O Sensei actually crafted waza as a tool kit, in order to show a new way of achieving 'Enlightenment in this Body', what would be your response? You might respond, 'Prove it to me', and I would show you the same tapes. In all the tapes O Sensei demonstrates what he demonstrates by means of waza. You might respond, 'Ah, but the waza O Sensei shows do not really matter: they are like icing on the cake. But you need to show more clearly than you have done so far that O Sensei regarded waza as having no value. I tend to believe that O Sensei regarded waza as a kind of mudra: the gestures in Shingon Buddhism. I am not sure whether he worried about their martial effectiveness (I think he NEVER worried about these questions after becoming member of Omoto). But he did worry about the effectiveness of his 'divine waza' in setting the world to rights.

PAG. And Tanahashi and the other deshi (including Saito, who trained with Ueshiba in Iwama every day), did not realize this? Your description sounds too much like the aikido version of Indiana Jones and the Aiki Holy Grail.
Can you state anything contrary to Marks Ideas? Its seems obvious to me that his deshi for the most part missed it. I would add to that several of you peers (in age and rank) who openly have stated "they" missed it.

I don't like to cross post but I will assume that many don't visit the non aikido section that Peter referred to in his post.
Anent pushing and why? And is there more to it:
Mark is not discuss pushing for pushing sake. I might add that receiving or sending is quite useless without a whole body connection and winding. What connects to what and why- can be quite valuable. Also, absolutes and rules are very good building steps but it is the body use behind them that is paramount. You can quite handily get caught in playing hands, say in Aikido, Judo, Wrestling, Kali, etc. and while grabbing -receive and send *in-balance* with the receiving hand palm down while opening and the sending hand down while closing. The results being they feel they are falling into a hole while they are getting tossed-out, thrown-down or hit from the other side.
Unfortunately since these things work marginally as well as more completely (and even then there is a difference between the way some arts use those connections)and ...since they are the basis for many techniques... people have become complacent and allow themselves to get caught up in the waza and movement-missing the power behind everything.
Then again when it comes to building the body, some can get lost in certain skills and methods that are built on correct movement but use the movement as "evasions" and "changes" and still miss the point at which they can be strengthening and building the mind/ body intent -hence the state we find arts such as taiji and aikido in.
Gleason makes a very good point: that today, many, if not most, in aikido have become caught up in evasive movement and waza that covers their weaknesses, without ever concentrating on fixing the foundational weaknesses and turning them into a strength.
Aiki skills we are supposed to be working on always were and always will be -percentage wise- elite. While they are the essence of the power of most of the legendary masters, they will forever be outside of the "knowledge" of the run of the mill teachers in the Martial arts and even further removed from the those with the "knowledge" and then the tenacity to work it and arrive at serious skill in using that knowledge.

Pushing serves as a great example of a vast body of misinformation. Few have expressed or seem to understand why it has value in and of itself and as a learning tool for developing power.
One might ask:
How one earth does it help develop the center
How does it help eliminate one side weighting
How does it help make incredible aiki-age rising energy
Aiki-sage sinking and sending over energy
How does it join the both of those in use
How does it help develop winding energy joining the two up and down and in and out.
How can it be the birth place of aiki-power that is useble and instant making kuzushi on contact and capturing center in Shiai

So we have posts denigrating the training and poking fun at it...as being static and dead, rooted and useless in fighting, or saying "please tell me there is more to it than this (which should be obvious) until they meet someone very good at learning it's valuable lessons.

Quote:
So do we reduce aikido training to the push test? What else do we do?
Ueshiba always did techniques. You are using the example of the jo exercise to build a whole world view of aiki, without techniques, that goes contrary to what Ueshiba himself (and Takeda before him) actually showed. And he did view what he was doing as aiki. It is in the Takemusu Aiki discourses.
This is of course true, But I would challenge you in return to examine why the techniques are so different and clearly stand out from the koryu jujutsu and judo or the era?
Why...did the Dai Nippon Butoku Kai chose to create a class separeting it out from Koryu jujutsu?
What drives his 'waza" that cuased them to be seen as markedly different?
Also as Mark correctly noted. Ueshiba was indeed noted for pushing. Openly known for it. Please explain just why that would have been so were it not so fundemental to all that was expressed in the waza of his art. It is even notable that during demonstrations...of waza...he demonstrated pushing. What was HE trying to express by doing so?

Quote:
Don't you think that Tanahashi should have thought more carefully about WHY they could not push him over? After all, the deshi were not stupid, were they?.
I don't like to infer that people were stupid. Can we agree on a less insulting causal factor for them missing it? Youth? Being caught up in technique?
Ignorance? Or lay it at Ueshiba's feet in the Japanese model of students having to steal technique?
Am I stating an opinion that most missed it? Yes I am. Is that position defensible. Yes it is. Fortunately or unfortunately many put out enough video footage to make it obvious. Now we have hundreds of thousands copying.

Quote:
Finally, I should state that (1) yours was a very refreshing post, in terms of the thread and (2) that Mike Sigman was definitely on to something when he stated, in many, many posts, that what was actually happening had to be explained in such a way that it could be repeated and progress monitored. This is entirely in line with Kukai's notion that enlightenment is something that one can see actually happening: it can be monitored and judged by someone outside the individual's 'charmed' circle.
I would also like to add, that although Mike deserves credit for being a voice calling for the need to both show and have teaching skills proving its replicable? In that he was not alone nor the first on aikiweb. You have both Rob Jon and myself.
I might we add another criteria here, though;
STUDENTS... that can demonstrate it is applicability and its being reproducible.
They most certainly exist and worthy of merit. As has been witnessed to here some of mine and Arks are quite capable of showing applicably in other peoples dojo's and in freestyle grappling and "they" also teach others. I think that answers Kikai's observations well.
As for "charmed circles" lets examine that and how it plays out in the aikiweb discussions and Mark's model as well. Since the use of Kukai's notion was challenging as a model may I be so bold in rebuttal?
None of the hundreds of participants who have out to meet Mike, Ark Me etc were charmed when they arrived were they? Mark was certainly not "charmed" when he came from aikiweb to test me. I can assure you neither was Liberti who also tried throwing punches at me in the middle of a demonstration. One might ask Gleason just how charmed he was as well. Nor were the various BJJ, Judo, Karate, Shoot fighters and MMA people Ark and my people have encountered on their turf. So Kuai's notion for purposes of furthering the discussion here on aikiweb with and among teachers of the art has most certainly been addressed, repeatedly.

In closing, you had questioned the probable response from Mark to be "come and feel" -IHTBF. I agree that- to a point- it is certainly inadequate. Is it fair to say that thus far for the vast majority (if not everyone)- that has proven to be true, though? Consistently true? Words would not do it-that in the end, it had to be felt.
I am not selling the holy grail you refer to but in the end is it not fair to say the those who came found the results of internal body training to be so profound it has either altered their practice forever or at the very last they acknowledge it is real and substantial?
Again since we are being so open.
At what point does the consistency of witness by very experienced and recognized teachers of Aikido serve to negate "the value of doubt." And how could that have been done by discussion? All that did was garner interest that led to…the unavoidable, IHTBF. So fair enough. But what have all if us been saying to one another most of our entire martial careers? "You have to go feel so and so!"
What's new about that?
For this discussion here-since IHTBF has gone so well, and been so definitive, at what point does the doubt itself then become the "Emperor with no clothes" instead of the other way around? I am going on training something like a dozen teachers now. Let's add to that the ones who have trained with Mike and Ark. In the fullness of time, I wonder when it will become appropriate to ask "Just who, is tilting at what, windmill?"

Quote:
Very best wishes (and I plan to visit the States as soon as I can to do some hands-on training ).
I always appreciate your thoughtful and challenging approach to the subject, Peter. You have previously stated a desire to train with me. I think we would have a very rewarding exchange comparing thought to action, word to form.
In the end I see it as resolving all doubt that Aikido can work in...any fight.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-14-2009 at 01:12 PM.
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Old 05-29-2009, 06:05 AM   #1373
hotdogwater
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A popular discussion

I noticed a discussion on here entitled "Aikido Does Not Work at All in a Fight" started by one Joeysola on 10-17-2000. The last response to this was about two weeks ago on 5-14-2009. Since this has gone on for about 9 years and along with all the ultra rude comments posted by the youtube people in regards to all the aikido videos posted, I've decided I have something to say about this. This is my first and hopefully only post ever on a discussion board. I always said I would never do it because I didn't want to get sucked into a debate which is clearly nonsense. But oh well, here comes my story, or rant, which ever you want to call it.

I started doing BJJ sometime in January of 2003. What amazed me the most about it was how effective it was in developing muscle memory, reflexes and timing for realistic combat? One day someone came into the gym who showed me some aikido techniques. I was equally impressed with these techniques and became instantly interested in wanting to learn more. I became eager to learn especially since the guy teaching me said aikido was kind of like jiu-jitsu standing up. I began researching aikido dojos in the area and quickly noticed the difference between the competitive martial arts and the traditional martial arts. Though I could tell there were some excellent techniques to be learned in aikido, I decided the traditional aspects of it just weren't suited for me. I was much more into the competitive sports like kickboxing, boxing, and BJJ.

During my research I noticed something that still bothers me to this day which is also the reason for this post. It is the argument between mixed martial artists and aikidokas on the effectiveness of aikido. I am posting on this forum in regards to this subject because I feel my audience here conducts itself with excellent class and civility. Probably thanks in large part to our moderators perhaps, but I'll give everyone the benefit of the doubt that you're all probably pretty cool. You're certainly a far sight better than the comment section of every aikido video posted on YOUTUBE who I dare say if I were writing a dissertation on the decline of western civilization in the 21st century, would be the bulk of my research. Therefore, you will have to bear with me if my words seem like they are intended for them. I understand there is no universal attitude within aikidokas. You are all individuals and I treat you as such. But the attitude of the practitioners on youtube seems to be this. Not only is aikido effective, they seem to think they can defeat any boxer, kick boxer, mixed martial artist, so on and so forth.

What does not upset me is the effectiveness of aikido in question. I believe when applied correctly, it can be an incredibly useful tool. But, personally I felt the traditional aspects of it weren't for me so I moved on. What do upset me are the statements of superiority coming from aikidokas, and again not necessarily from the ones on this site, but from you know where. These statements would not infuriate so much if the people making them wouldn't cop out every time behind the excuse that their philosophy does not condone violence and that their art is to only to be used for defense. I believe this to be a beautiful philosophy, and I'm not just saying that. I started training in competitive martial arts a couple of years before the UFC's popularity exploded. It was such a nicer time. People were doing it just as a hobby or a sport or a really good workout. Then that intellectually devoid show The Ultimate Fighter premiered and all the wannabe tough guys had to start doing it just because it was the thing to do. As much as I like mixed martial arts, it spawned a really crappy sub culture.

This is why I admire aikido's philosophy. But if aikido does not condone violence, one thing it certainly is liberated on is the running of one's mouth. I find it in poor taste and even poorer class those who make statements as to who they could defeat in hand to hand combat without having the decency or the courage to prove those statements with action. For all of MMA's faults, at least its practitioners have the spine to except challenges and engage them the best way they know how. If aikidokas are not going to act on this, then it is my humble opinion they should cease to speak of it as well. After all, if those early UFC competitors in question were not high level aikido students because a high level aikido student would never do that, then why do you continue to humor this argument with a response? Wouldn't silence on this subject be more fitting for aikido's philosophy? I do not claim to be an expert on that philosophy or even well versed on it for that matter. It is simply my observation that these would be the values which O'Sensei was trying to instill within his students and their descendants.
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Old 05-29-2009, 06:30 AM   #1374
Nick
Dojo: Aikido of Greater Atlanta
Location: Atlanta, GA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 561
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Re: A popular discussion

As someone who spent 4 years boxing...

I agree completely.

Aikido can be and is very effective when taught and practiced properly. But, truth told, if you want to learn how to fight, you fight. The training regimen of Boxing, MMA, Muay Thai, etc are based more on competition (which almost always comes closer to a "real fight" than aikido training) than any kind of personal or spiritual development. This is evidenced by the pituitary cases for which I'm sure we both have stories.

Honestly, my guess is that the people who staunchly defend aikido as TEH BEZT EVAR do so for the same reason that any zealot does: They're afraid that they might be wrong. Aikido has a lot of strengths, ranging from the physical waza to the philosophical applications that make it something that is, in my opinion, very much worth studying. But to deny any weakness in Aikido is to deny the usefulness of any other art, which is, to my mind, ignorance, and anyone who would walk around hiding behind the "peaceful philosophy" of their art while disrespecting the training of others (even if they are disrespected first) is missing the point of "verbal aiki" in the first place.

Moral of my increasingly longwinded rant: "Never defeated means never fighting" applies to discussion as well, and a lot of aikidoka would do well to take that to heart, not just on discussion boards but in life.

Welcome to the fora, I hope you decide to come back from time to time.

Nick

---
Nick Porter
"Do not fall into the trap of the artisan who boasts twenty years of experience, when in fact he has had only one year of experience-- twenty times."
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Old 05-29-2009, 07:41 AM   #1375
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,803
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Re: A popular discussion

So one nine-year-long unresolvable bag of electronic hot air wasn't enough, we need two of them.

Feh.
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