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Old 04-16-2009, 01:41 PM   #1326
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
David Coscina wrote: View Post
My main problem with those who continually challenge any martial arts practitioner is that many of these arts have death or debilitating blows that you simply cannot apply in a sparring situation. When I studied kung fu, we practiced full force strikes on a head/torso dummy because these moves were meant to kill or horribly maim. You cannot apply these is a "friendly match" like you might with BJJ because you can grapple and take someone down with 3/4 of the technique before doing serious harm.

I do not know Aikido but from all of the demos I have seen, it's pretty clear that applying these moves in real life would render the attacker maimed (dislocation or broken arm) that would pretty much stop a fight cold unless the guy was on PCP or something.

I totally respect these demos perhaps because I have trained in other martial arts where you could certainly imagine what would happen if you applied the techniques full force.
I apply moves I have been told will maim and kill every day. 99% of deadly moves to be frank, simply are not deadly and in most cases ineffective or impossible to actually apply.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 04-16-2009, 03:04 PM   #1327
David Kerr
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

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wrote: View Post
The reason I started this thread was because I came here to look into trying another martial art. I checked out some classes and had a friend give me some lessons. I have found that Aikido has no practical application.

If you want to learn how to punch box. If you want to learn how to kick kickbox. If you want to learn how to grapple do Judo or wrestling. If you want to learn submissions do BJJ or submission fighting. I am saying that the strikes and grappling in Aikido have no application in a real fight. They only work if you are getting pushed around.

The reason Aikido striking and Grappling do not work is that there is no practical sparring to get rid of the worthless techniques. Why do you think that the most successful NHB competitors are athletes who compete in a martial sport.

I have seen two high ranking Aikido practitioners in the early UFC videos. The Aikido practitioners were slaughtered even though in both instances the Aikido practitioners had the weight advantage. What really amazed me is that they did not even react. How can an Aikido practitioner expect to defend against a quick strong jab, that even people with no martial arts experience can do, by taking large steps and with elaborate hand movements. The answer is a broken nose every time.

Just because Aikido has striking and grappling techniques does not mean that they work. It all depends on if they are practical and have been tested in actual NHB fights.

AND IN REPONSE TO THE GUY ABOVE. SAYING THAT YOU WOULD USE EYE GOUGES IS A KEY SIGN OF SOMEONE WHO CAN NOT FIGHT FIGHT OR GRAPPLE. IT IS SAD THAT WITH ALL OF THAT TRAINING THAT IS WHAT YOU RELY ON. TRUST ME IF YOU GOT IN A FIGHT WITH A GOOD GRAPPLER OF ANY SIZE YOU WILL END UP IN A POSITION ON THE GROUND WHERE YOU CAN NOT USE THE EYE GOUGE.
Define fight?
Is that queensbury rules fighting or five junkies all trying to stab you to death for a 10 bag of smack on your way home from work. How would you grapple your way out of that one?
Stop living in an ideal world, nugget:

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Old 04-16-2009, 03:16 PM   #1328
majin29
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I apply moves I have been told will maim and kill every day. 99% of deadly moves to be frank, simply are not deadly and in most cases ineffective or impossible to actually apply.
what exactly is your line of work? And yes, because I have (luckily) never had to resort to using some of these moves, I don't know for sure that they would kill. However, knowing a bit about human physiology, I know that a dragon strike to the throat if applied properly would result in one's larynx being ripped out. Or a panther strike to the same section of human anatomy would crush the larynx. Or crane strike to the nerve cluster by the temple would disorient (if not worse) an attacker.

some of this has to do with one's innate ability to fight and some of it has to do with muscle memory through rigorous training. Not everything I learned in kung fu would I classify as "deadly"- perhaps 10%. But if I ever was in a fight for my life, you can bet it's those 10% moves that I will be using from the reflexive desire for self preservation. Hence, I would like to re-train my reflexes towards a less offensive response.

BTW- I hope the tenor of my post did not come off as offensive or defensive. I do understand where you are coming from. My experience has shown me that real life is very disparate from the martial arts/action films that draw many a young man into training in these arts.

Last edited by majin29 : 04-16-2009 at 03:19 PM.

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Old 04-16-2009, 03:43 PM   #1329
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Ripping larnyx's out, striking to the throats, all the "deadly" techniques are all predicated on the following:

Being at the RIGHT PLACE, and the RIGHT TIME, with the RIGHT TECHNIQUE.

This is very difficult to do in reality. In my experiences the folks that relay on deadly techniques practice them in a very fluid, very dynamic environment without a very good understanding of aliveness or positional dominance to be more specific.

When presented with a uke or opponent that is bent on not having that done to them they rarely if ever seem to be able to do it.

Not because they haven't committed it to muscle memory

Not because they haven't practiced it a million times.

Not because they are not quick enough, strong enough, or preceptive enough.

They simply have not studied in a manner that accounts for the positional dominance or lack thereof.

Not saying that anyone here or you David fall into that category....simply saying this has been my experience over the years 100% of the time when I have such conversations concerning "deadly techniques".

it ain't the technique that is deadly, it is the martial artist and the position that he dominates that make it deadly.

Guys that understand this don't put the weight or the focus on the technique, nor do they talk about techniques.....they will talk to you all day long about things like fight momentum, OODA loops, Acheiving the dominant position, controlling the tempo of the fight etc....

Why, cause they realize that these are the things that are paramount in a situation to control...technique is a secondary concern and frankly of very little consquence.

How I look at throat ripping techniques are this:

If I have the ability to rip a throat out then there are a few other things that I have at my disposal that are of a higher percentage of success and efficiency of application.

OR, I have the ability to NOT do this and control the fight (minimal force).

Either way, I have never been inclined or found a need for microscopic/precise techniques such as these.

That is kinda the catch 22 in the situation I think.

Anyway...food for thought!

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Old 04-16-2009, 09:23 PM   #1330
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Kevin, I totally respect your post. It just shows me that I have a long journey of learning ahead of me.

Dave

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Old 04-16-2009, 09:58 PM   #1331
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

we all have a long journey! It took me a long time and some very painful lessons to figure this out!

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Old 04-17-2009, 07:07 AM   #1332
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Ripping larnyx's out, striking to the throats, all the "deadly" techniques are all predicated on the following:

Being at the RIGHT PLACE, and the RIGHT TIME, with the RIGHT TECHNIQUE.

This is very difficult to do in reality. In my experiences the folks that relay on deadly techniques practice them in a very fluid, very dynamic environment without a very good understanding of aliveness or positional dominance to be more specific.

When presented with a uke or opponent that is bent on not having that done to them they rarely if ever seem to be able to do it.

Not because they haven't committed it to muscle memory

Not because they haven't practiced it a million times.

Not because they are not quick enough, strong enough, or preceptive enough.

They simply have not studied in a manner that accounts for the positional dominance or lack thereof.

Not saying that anyone here or you David fall into that category....simply saying this has been my experience over the years 100% of the time when I have such conversations concerning "deadly techniques".

it ain't the technique that is deadly, it is the martial artist and the position that he dominates that make it deadly.

Guys that understand this don't put the weight or the focus on the technique, nor do they talk about techniques.....they will talk to you all day long about things like fight momentum, OODA loops, Acheiving the dominant position, controlling the tempo of the fight etc....

Why, cause they realize that these are the things that are paramount in a situation to control...technique is a secondary concern and frankly of very little consquence.

How I look at throat ripping techniques are this:

If I have the ability to rip a throat out then there are a few other things that I have at my disposal that are of a higher percentage of success and efficiency of application.

OR, I have the ability to NOT do this and control the fight (minimal force).

Either way, I have never been inclined or found a need for microscopic/precise techniques such as these.

That is kinda the catch 22 in the situation I think.

Anyway...food for thought!
Amen to that.

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In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 04-17-2009, 07:26 AM   #1333
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Nice post Kevin,

I was going to simplify that and just say this. If you can't reliably punch a guy in the face when he's trying to stop you, then you can't rip his throat out. Similar sayings apply for other positions and ranges in a fight. I know many good bjj players who are not great bjj players simply because they suck at closing the distance and taking people down. If you can't get in the grappling range, your never going to armbar someone.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 04-17-2009, 07:34 AM   #1334
majin29
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I will just add that the strikes I learned seemed to be effective IF I would initiate them, basically by surprise. If I was squaring off against an opponent who was ready for a fight, the success rate of these techniques would be severely diminished (as Kevin noted). Which reinforces my desire to seek out a system that does not foster this type of aggressive tendencies, hence my interest in Aikido.

I'm not going to lie and say my motivation to study this is purely for the aesthetic of it. Gaining some knowledge and insight into how people carry themselves that can help get me out of a potential confrontation is another plus.

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Old 04-17-2009, 11:04 AM   #1335
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Are attacks or defences that fundamentally different.

If there was a picture with you fist on my shoulder and me striking in the general direction of your neck/face with a first or a te-katana
Can you tell if I am attacking you and you counter jabbing me?
Or if was I defending against you grabbing my shoulder or punching with the lead hand.

It does not really matter who attacked who, what really mater is
Who has the direct line of attack?
Who can afford to take the hit?
If we each know what option top make it better for use in the close future.

And I think what Kev was saying that the trick is not to evaluate that as it happens but to act so that it is likely evaluates appropriately for us.

If we use the example of special grip attack to the throat for eithr of us in the above exemple,
it is a waste because if it fails it does not gives us anything.

A te kantana/first gives us a chance to damage things even if the attack misses the throat.
Getting the face, the lower jaw, the upper sternum or the collarbone still good enough as well we it is much more like to move the head.

Basically it has a better change to improve our situation than a more specialised attack.

phil

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Old 04-17-2009, 01:20 PM   #1336
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

i,m a very experienced in real life street fights,and all i can say is aikido is the real deal,i thought i could fight until i started aikido

then i realised i could not fight at all,i will also add i have experienced real time combat against highly agressive people and have fought with multiple,s on more than one occasion,before i even went into a dojo, Aikido is a very deceptive art to the untrained eye
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Old 04-17-2009, 01:58 PM   #1337
majin29
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

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i,m a very experienced in real life street fights,and all i can say is aikido is the real deal,i thought i could fight until i started aikido

then i realised i could not fight at all,i will also add i have experienced real time combat against highly agressive people and have fought with multiple,s on more than one occasion,before i even went into a dojo, Aikido is a very deceptive art to the untrained eye
I actually got that impression based on some of the demos I have seen. Where someone might think it looks dance-like, I think these moves could be debilitating if the person did not roll with the maneuver (which I'm sure most people DO NOT do when in a fight- their natural instinct is to move against an attacker).

That said, I'm fine with someone underestimating myself or a system I study. I have to believe that the surprise element is always an advantage should a physical confrontation inevitably ensure.

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Old 04-17-2009, 05:30 PM   #1338
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

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I will just add that the strikes I learned seemed to be effective IF I would initiate them, basically by surprise. If I was squaring off against an opponent who was ready for a fight, the success rate of these techniques would be severely diminished (as Kevin noted). Which reinforces my desire to seek out a system that does not foster this type of aggressive tendencies, hence my interest in Aikido.

I'm not going to lie and say my motivation to study this is purely for the aesthetic of it. Gaining some knowledge and insight into how people carry themselves that can help get me out of a potential confrontation is another plus.
Surprise is very, very key to success. It is also the thing I think in most self defense situtations that is capitaized on by the attacker.

I could possess all the years of training in martial arts, in a toe to toe fight and in a classroom I may be much more competent than they other guys, however, I think you can throw that all out the window the minute he jumps you by surprise, dictates the rules/tempo of the fight, and has maybe a weapon that he is employing like club, knife etc.

It also goes out the window if he brings a buddy and I don't.

So, I don't think there is much we can really do ultimately given this element (surprise etc.)

However, I still think there are things we can do and train properly to improve our odds or survival if you can survvive.

It all comes down to structure...learning how to adopt a defensive structure that allows you to protect yourself, and then regain balance, distance, disrupt his fight plan and gain control of the fight again.

When you approach training this way for self defense you focus on structure, movement, and such...not techniques. Techniques will arise our of the structure, but they are definitely secondary.

Again, in my experiences and training in the past, this escapes alot of folks.

BJJ does a good job in this area, but even many BJJ dojos miss the mark a little, however, overall I'd say the BJJ methods at least focus very heavily on "point of faiure" since 90% of the training is approached on the ground with you in a postion of failure and you must regain control.

Too many dojos focus on "parity" that is both opponents start 90% of the time from a position of equality and then one opponent achieves control and then the fight ends.

There are some good lessons to be learned in the parity model, but unfortunately many students (and instructors) begin to see this as the "fight plan" and base all training success on this model.

It goes out the window when we talk self defense mostly because self defense situations I believe DO start with the element of suprise acheived by one opponent (think Ambush), and the other guy is WAY behind in the situation (think OODA) and must work from this bad, bad position and acheive control again.

To me, it has nothing at all to do with technique, alot to do with learning "whole body principles/structure", and everything to do with the situational environment (aliveness) that you inject into the training environment.

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Old 04-17-2009, 07:30 PM   #1339
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Surprise is very, very key to success. It is also the thing I think in most self defense situtations that is capitaized on by the attacker.

I could possess all the years of training in martial arts, in a toe to toe fight and in a classroom I may be much more competent than they other guys, however, I think you can throw that all out the window the minute he jumps you by surprise, dictates the rules/tempo of the fight, and has maybe a weapon that he is employing like club, knife etc.

It also goes out the window if he brings a buddy and I don't.

So, I don't think there is much we can really do ultimately given this element (surprise etc.)

However, I still think there are things we can do and train properly to improve our odds or survival if you can survvive.

It all comes down to structure...learning how to adopt a defensive structure that allows you to protect yourself, and then regain balance, distance, disrupt his fight plan and gain control of the fight again.

When you approach training this way for self defense you focus on structure, movement, and such...not techniques. Techniques will arise our of the structure, but they are definitely secondary.

Again, in my experiences and training in the past, this escapes alot of folks.

BJJ does a good job in this area, but even many BJJ dojos miss the mark a little, however, overall I'd say the BJJ methods at least focus very heavily on "point of faiure" since 90% of the training is approached on the ground with you in a postion of failure and you must regain control.

Too many dojos focus on "parity" that is both opponents start 90% of the time from a position of equality and then one opponent achieves control and then the fight ends.

There are some good lessons to be learned in the parity model, but unfortunately many students (and instructors) begin to see this as the "fight plan" and base all training success on this model.

It goes out the window when we talk self defense mostly because self defense situations I believe DO start with the element of suprise acheived by one opponent (think Ambush), and the other guy is WAY behind in the situation (think OODA) and must work from this bad, bad position and acheive control again.

To me, it has nothing at all to do with technique, alot to do with learning "whole body principles/structure", and everything to do with the situational environment (aliveness) that you inject into the training environment.
I agree, I really love the fact that my gym does a lot of the escape the mount, get the guy off your back, clinch and escape the guy punching you type drills. What I would really like to practice sometime is working on keeping my pistol while in such a disadvantaged position, standing up, and then using it.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 05-07-2009, 04:37 PM   #1340
Paul Jagdman
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

The one, rather obvious, fact that the person who started this thread failed to mention is that in MMA sporting events such as the UFC and WEC is that a certain feature of the scoring rules automatically introduces a component into the matches that reduces significantly the effectiveness of Aikido, which is why no world class Aikidoka has participated, if only to strike a blow to the calumny that Aikido is worthless for self-defense: the contestants need to show aggression and try to dominate the space in order to get points. Since Aikido revolves around waiting for the opponent to launch an attack, he necessarily sacrifices the initiative to the attacker. On the street, using a lot of evasive tactics can be vital for survival, but in MMA competition, you'll constantly be behind on points. An Aikidoka in an MMA competition would need to constantly shift away from Aikido as he attempted to goad his attacker into doing something that would leave the attacker vulnerable. The problem here is that this shifting back and forth between Aikido and an aggressive approach would be a schizophrenic type of gameplan, negating the Aikido. There would, therefore, be a new style, no longer Aikido. Thus, MMA competitions as a testing ground for Aikido may not be possible, if the scoring rules stay fundamentally the same.

As far as the effectiveness of Aikido on the street is concerned, there is much to be said for it. First of all, the sparring involving multiple ukes is more likely going to prepare someone for multiple assailants than most other martial arts. Bruce Lee once said that the task of the martial artist, when confronted by multiple assailants, is to keep moving and, above all, not to get pinned. I have only seen one martial art that has training that focuses on just that. That art is Aikido. Whether Hapkido, a distant cousin of Aikido, has such a focus is unknown to me.

Finally, I would like to mention how Aikido embodies a principle of Krav Maga, the martial art of the Israeli Defense Force. According to Krav Maga, it is ideal, when counterattacking or attacking an enemy, to get to the opponent's "dead zone", in other words, getting behind him or at least to his side. The tenkan movement, whereby the Aikidoka winds up at the attacker's dead zone is undoubtedly highly effective. Imagine a knife fight where one of the fighters is an Aikidoka with a knife. In addition, most street fighters would be taken by surprise by such a maneuver. The typical street thug thinks in terms of linear movements, charging in like a bull. It should be mentioned that this concept of the dead zone is also embodied in the purely striking arts. That is, you want to find an angle of attack where your opponent's hips are not facing in your direction. Just think of how the bob and weave is used in boxing. Even in military science the same principle holds true. You don't want to meet force head on. It is always best to outflank the enemy.

Last edited by Paul Jagdman : 05-07-2009 at 04:48 PM.
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Old 05-07-2009, 04:46 PM   #1341
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
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Since Aikido revolves around waiting for the opponent to launch an attack, he necessarily sacrifices the initiative to the attacker.
Nope.

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Old 05-08-2009, 12:31 AM   #1342
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Paul,

I do not agree with alot of what you wrote in your first paragraph about the concept of evasion. When you are dealing with a fight in which the distance has been taken away from you, evasion is not the best course of action.

You do go on to talk about your Krav Maga example in the last paragraph, and it also pretty much agrees with my believe concerning the "dead zone". This is also known as the clinch.

In order to put yourself in this zone you pretty much must close in the enemy, irimi, kuzushi, disrupt his attack and get in to a position of advantage, (kuzushi).

As far as randori in aikido....

well, It has done two things for me. It has taught me the PRINCIPLES of movement when you are concerned with multiple attackers.

It has shown me that it is damn near impossible to evade multiple attackers successfully.

It has also proven to me that it is essential to understand moving towards your enemy on angles and disrupting his attack. Which goes back to having a keen understanding of the clinch with one opponent.

IMO, you deal with one opponent at a time. Of course you do not engage and clinch him as that would not be prudent to get tied up with one, however, you do need to close distance, disrupt and off balance, tenkan and then move on and engage the next one on your terms...not his.

Of course, randori is difficult and without striking and kicks it is difficult to practice it for real and you will lose eventually.

The important thing I think about randori is to understand the principles it is trying to impart, and to realize that unless you are wearing Blauer type wear and practicing scenario based training under competent supervision, Aikido randori is NOT preparing you for multiple opponent attacks adequately.

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Old 05-08-2009, 07:17 AM   #1343
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Kevin has voiced most of my objections.

Best,
Ron

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Old 05-08-2009, 07:33 AM   #1344
Mark Mueller
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Kevin said:

"we all have a long journey! It took me a long time and some very painful lessons to figure this out!"

But he still has his throat!
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Old 05-08-2009, 01:17 PM   #1345
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

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I have competed in both boxing and wrestling and I am now training in brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I have watched many No Holds Barred competitions, like the UFC, and it is clear to me that Aikido and it's techniques and it's way of training do not prepare anyone to actually fight. I know that Aikido practitioners talk a lot about concepts like spirituality, harmony...etc. but I also hear people talk about how it is a pratical means of self defense. Aikido does not have practical striking techniques or any REAL matwork at all. I would like to know how Aikido can be used as self defense if you cannot grapple or strike.
There are two reasons why masters of Aikido stay away from fighting rings like the UFC. First, intentional fighting is completely against Aikido philosophy. Second, if a master Aikidoka did enter the octagon, he or she would be forced to snap wrists, tear ligaments, and otherwise severely incapacitate the other fighter. The UFC and the Aikidoka will not allow this, especially in a sport situation.

Drew
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Old 05-08-2009, 03:00 PM   #1346
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Oh, brother.

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Old 05-08-2009, 10:08 PM   #1347
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

*face palm*

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

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Old 05-09-2009, 03:21 AM   #1348
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Mark Mueller wrote: View Post
Kevin said:

"we all have a long journey! It took me a long time and some very painful lessons to figure this out!"

But he still has his throat!
lol, yeah but I am down an ear right now. Got "cupped" in the ear the other night training BJJ out here in San Diego with Saulo Ribeiro and crew. Resulted in a perforated ear drum and temporary hearing loss and a slight constant ringing! EENT says I will heal fine and be good to go in a month! It was a total accident and no indication of the training here as it is very good and very safe...just one of those freak things that happens when you train hard every now and then!

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Old 05-09-2009, 03:43 AM   #1349
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Drew Gardner wrote: View Post
There are two reasons why masters of Aikido stay away from fighting rings like the UFC. First, intentional fighting is completely against Aikido philosophy. Second, if a master Aikidoka did enter the octagon, he or she would be forced to snap wrists, tear ligaments, and otherwise severely incapacitate the other fighter. The UFC and the Aikidoka will not allow this, especially in a sport situation.

Drew
well, IMO, this argument was put to rest way back in the early 1990s in the first few UFCs. in addtiion the things you mention above are totally legal in the current UFC, and incidentally in most competitive grappling contest. You are not restricted to leg bars, ankle locks, arm bars, wrist locks...the things that can snap wrist and tear ligaments.

Why don't you see them? it is because in that venue, guys have really figured out how to pretty much mitigate them.

About once a year I will have at least one guy in the Army bring up that argument and we will don the Blauer Gear and go at it under the premise of trapping, groin shots, tendon ripping. (I haven't done this in about 24 months now though!). It becomes a quick education on why it is paramount to acheive dominance in the fight if you expect to be able to use these tools.

I will agree on a street scenario that involves the pontential for weapons...weapons change alot of the "sport" or assumed "Unarmed" fight. It does not mean that you ignore dominance, simply that the timing and some of the choices you will make in engagement will be different.

There is alot of work to this if you expect or have the requirement to deal with reality outside of the practice of budo.

It does not mean what is commonly taught in aikido is wrong or bad, it just means you need to train in a way the puts the pressure or aliveness in the situations you need to train for.

I can't comment on how well aIkido masters do in this type of training as I have never worked with one under a model of aliveness or "fight pressure".

I think what most of them teach as it relates to principles and budo are good and sound though.

As far as philosophy goes....

well I have totally bought into the philosophy and values of aikido. I see nothing that conflicts or restricts my abilities to fight in MMA or other type venues as long as it is approached from the standpoint of understanding the rules, playing by them, and being a good sportsman.

You'd also have to lay out a little more for me what you mean by "Intentional fighting".

Certainly there is a spectrum of ethics. Ethics that I think most other styles, to include MMA adhere to. that is, not bullying, picking fights on the street, trolling for fights etc.

However, I think most of us in aikido look at the intent to fight as a complex issue. There is a spectrum of choice and action. Most of us try and hone our skills to a level where we are constantly increasing our ability to have more choices and control to NOT have to result to physical violence.

Based on that, you could actually say, that if you are NOT training hard and MMA style with Aliveness...that is, a failure to reconcile a big part of what fighting is...then you are missing an important lesson in aikido.

At best you are delusional possibly about your skills and your abiliity to have choices in a given situation.

So, from that perspective, I'd say that many that practice aikido have to be careful not to establish a moral high ground and hide behind the philosophy of aikido and that simply by association/affinity with aikido that we somehow have a moral high ground over other arts/people.

I'd say that many of the MMA crowd quite possibly have a better understanding of the essence of aikido, if for no other reason that the understand a little better their limitations and abilities as it relates to the use of physical force.

It is a slippery trap that we have a tendency to fall into in Aikido because our base philosophy/foundations are so well defined as it relates to peace/harmony.

IMO, you have to be very careful about over simplifying the issue. this is a tough and complex subject!

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Old 05-09-2009, 08:57 AM   #1350
Mark Mueller
Location: Louisville Kentucky
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

"It is a slippery trap that we have a tendency to fall into in Aikido because our base philosophy/foundations are so well defined as it relates to peace/harmony.

IMO, you have to be very careful about over simplifying the issue. this is a tough and complex subject!"

Well said Kevin.
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