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Old 02-07-2008, 08:11 PM   #1151
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

unless you dip them in tar and cut glass.

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Old 02-07-2008, 09:14 PM   #1152
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

As stated in other posts, Judo (Standing Jujitsu) and Aikido are complimentary. In fact, one blends into the other.

It confounds me that so many people envision Aikido as constrained by the intital curriculum that presents techniques from wrist grabs that force you to learn how to connect to the center through the 3 joints in the arm.

Elbow and shoulder throwing is what we often call Judo or Standing Jujitsu. It can be done with grinding force or it can be done lightly with Aiki principles.

When you get the bum's rush in a fight, skip the wrist and let the distance define your aikido. Ut will look like Mifune's Judo. Then comes BJJ or just good Judo ground work. That too can be done with Aiki principles.
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Old 02-08-2008, 08:15 AM   #1153
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
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Alex,

You bring up some interesting points. I agree with your perspective for sure!

This is one thing I try to drive home to the soldiers I train. We will vary the goals (end state) of the situation when we train. I will do things like give them 5 minutes to fight and keep points or enforce rules (constraints). I will also then give them 30 seconds and say who ever is on top at the end of 30 seconds is the winner.

It is interesting to see how the level of intensity, the difference in strategy, technique etc play into it when you change these conditions.

I agree, it isn't the rules (implied or specified) but the other things such as time and desired endstate that makes the biggest difference.

good points.
Thanks
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Old 02-08-2008, 08:18 AM   #1154
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

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unless you dip them in tar and cut glass.
Now we're getting some where and it's probably hospital. I feel this is progress in upping the intensity of combat sports.
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Old 02-08-2008, 10:45 AM   #1155
ECBudokaiSensei
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

As has probably been mentioned before - Aikido is most certainly NOT a sport. As a rule, all martial arts "don't work" in a real fight. What "works" are your spirit, awareness and commitment to go to the "next level", if necessary. I most certainly don't claim to be the toughest guy on this forum...I probably am not even the toughest guy in my own house! However, I have taught police and military close-quarters combat for several years. And I have been in a scrape or two myself. Here is what I have found:

1) In a NHB fight, it is all about athletics. Much like a football game, one has the opportunity to prepare one's self and study one's opponent. Thus, the fitter and more prepared person should prevail. In a real fight, that is rarely the case.

2) In a real fight, the person is really trying to hurt, if not kill you. Consequently, the motivation (by one or both parties) is much higher. In a sport, one will "tap out" prior to being injured. In a real fight, one will spit, gouge, bite or whatever to escape the threat and/or dominate his opponent.

3) In a real fight, the movements are disjointed and the flow/tempo is uneven. People utilize improvised (or traditional weapons) and other implements/matter (such as dirt) readily found in the area. Of course this is not the case in a structured competition.

4) In a real fight, people exhibit a Startle-Flinch response. Tony Blauer has done an excellent study of this phenomenon. I would suggest you review this. He makes great study of the body's natural tendency to respond initially on a primal level (which negates fine motor movements), then moving through a protective mode into a tactical mode. Aikido, for the most part is a "tactical" mode. That is also the case with all martial "arts". The Tony Blauer's SPEAR system provides an excellent "bridge" between the primal (i.e., natural) response to surprise threats/attacks into a more tactical application of one's martial training - whatever that style may be. I have been to SPEAR training and it is VERY effective for dealing with real-life attacks. But can you fight NHB with SPEAR? Tony Blauer himself will be the first person to tell you "NO". However, he does give one a useful tool for dealing with surprise threats (because if it isn't a surprise, generally you CAN walk away) where all "technique" is thrown out the window and moving into your preferred martial mode. The reason we train (in whatever style) is to be able to move more smoothly, skillfully and effectively once we reach the tactical mode.

To bash other martial arts is not only ignorant, but downright disrespectful. ALL martial arts have something to contribute to their practitioners. I have been practicing for the better part of 30 years, and the more I learn the more I realize that I really don't know that much at all. There is a big world out there and there is something to be gleaned from all martial disciplines. Everyone has to find their own path that suits THEM. The reason martial arts even exist is to allow folks to practice something and perhaps one day master it. It is the same with learning how to play the piano. I will even go so far as to say that most "martial arts" aren't even intended for real fighting. I tell my students (civilian and police/military) that is confronted with a combat situation - arm yourself if possible. Samurai warriors were normally armed. They only went "hands on" as a last resort. If you are not in a warrior profession, the real chances of you actually using your art in a combative situation is actually quite remote. However, the lessons you learn from developing strength, resistance to pain, physical/mental/spiritual resiliency, camaraderie, are all things you can use EVERY day.

Martial arts are supposed to be fun! There is always someone out there who can kick your butt! So if you are looking for the magic death touch, I'm sorry to inform you that it does not exist. So let's get past the "my art can lick your art" stuff and get down to the real issue - cultivating the person. It will be much more instructive for everyone.
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Old 02-08-2008, 11:17 AM   #1156
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Excwllwnt Post Cameron and I concur 100%.

William Hazen
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Old 02-08-2008, 01:52 PM   #1157
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

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I understand what you are saying philosophically, but if you are in a fight, you are in a fight...you can think what you want about it, reframe it a million ways, but someone hitting you, stabbing you, or what not is what it is, you must recognize the reality of the situation and deal with it appropriately..
Fair enough.
I certainly agree that even if you have the capacity to mentally remove yourself from the fight, you are still physically involved. I think that that is how most people get there to begin with besides. It, to me is important to recognize when a conflict begins before it becomes a fight (there is a fist flying at you). I've always been told if your technique doesn't work, you didn't start soon enough; it might work for other conflicts too. As for the type of fight, I more or less consider anything with rules a competition, and anything without rules a fight. Little basic I know, but it works for me. So that's what I think the thread is mostly about when I post.

In the immortal words of Sensei Dory: "Just keep swimming."
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Old 02-08-2008, 02:30 PM   #1158
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Nelson,

I'd agree that it is important to recognize when a conflict begins, before the physical. that is ideal and appropriate. However that predicates that you have that choice.

I think one thing that we struggle with in aikido, which I think is an affect of the way we train is that we assume choice, better yet parity. That is both parties have equal knowledge, equal assumptions, and an agreement about what the rules are and what the "dance" will be.

In reality, we may not have the foresight of choice, it is quite possible (most likely) that most of us that will be in a fight (physically) that choice to be or not be in the fight as been removed from our options. That is, our opponent has closed distance, and attacked. AKA an Ambush.

Do we have choices in an ambush? absolutely, yet we probably don't have a choice to not "be" involved in the fight. We may choose not to return violence. We may choose to be passive. We may choose to fight back, or we may not be able to do anything at alll, because we have been rendered unconscious or dead. (very limited choice).

I think rules always apply. or at least ethics do, which also translate into laws. The perp may choose to ignore them. We may choose to ignore them, or to imply them to a point of incapacitation (minimal force). However, we will always be subject to the aftermath of the fight in some way. (karma if you will).

"work in a fight" is a loaded concept. In some capacity you will be judged by your response an actions, provided you are not incapacitated immediately, and will be held accountable in some capacity, either internally by yourself and your psyche, or by society as a whole.

Other than that...pragmatically....i'd have no issues...what works is what works as you state! Thanks!

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Old 02-08-2008, 02:31 PM   #1159
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Cameron. good post agreed as Mr Hazen states. I highly recommend Tony Blauer's stuff on flinch response, it is on the money!

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Old 02-08-2008, 05:25 PM   #1160
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Quote:
I think one thing that we struggle with in aikido, which I think is an affect of the way we train is that we assume choice, better yet parity. That is both parties have equal knowledge, equal assumptions, and an agreement about what the rules are and what the "dance" will be.
Colonel Mark Miles, my Jujitsu teacher never allowed us to bow and tussle Judo/Aikido-style. We would stand in a line, the front man would wait to be pushed from behind by the number 2 man. Number 1 would go into ukemi and the fight was on.

I still like to run randori sessions that way. For those who have not tried it, it can be a real eye opener. You may never recover to a full standing position. Often the only recovery from the push would be a front (face) fall. No real choice, just survive.
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Old 02-08-2008, 07:03 PM   #1161
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Strangely I doubt many practitioners of any martial art or fighting style would want to meet Ueshiba Sensei to try their best. Foremost for Aikido, as I see from a Judo perspective, is that it can go from zero to 100MPH when needed. Anyone who has seen video of Ueshiba or Shiba Sensei will understand that if the opponent reaches out he will be falling down and often be placed in a maiming position.

I have had the experience to use Judo 3 times in true fighting situations. The last time I was teaching high school at the age of 47. I had just finished a year of training after many years away from the sport. I weighed 155 pounds and stand 5'6". A student, 240 pounds, football player and champion wrestler decided to bear hug me from behind so his friends could take something from my desk. I was seated on a table. He grabbed me very hard. While seated I ducked my shoulder, breaking his grip, grab his right wrist and using a wrist lock led him around the table. He landed face down and I placed my left knee on his elbow. I told him that if he moved I would break his arm.

The class thought they saw me throw him 6' through the air. I explained that Joe was just jumping to keep up with his wrist. It was the best throw I've ever executed and it was done on instinct and training in judo. That is the core of all Martial Arts: training that allows simple and well-executed action to defeat attack.
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Old 02-08-2008, 07:19 PM   #1162
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Following up I suggest you either Google Ueshiba Sensei or go to You-Tube to watch some excellent footage of his seamless and quite powerful techniques. If Rickson Gracie is aware of these films he should realize that BJJ would have little effect on forceful Aikido. The videos unmistakably demonstrate the proactive side of Aikido. Sensei Ueshiba moves to and disables opponents. He doesn't just wait around for an attack. Watch and marvel.
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Old 02-08-2008, 07:49 PM   #1163
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Kevin Leavitt wrote:

Colonel Mark Miles, my Jujitsu teacher never allowed us to bow and tussle Judo/Aikido-style. We would stand in a line, the front man would wait to be pushed from behind by the number 2 man. Number 1 would go into ukemi and the fight was on.

I still like to run randori sessions that way. For those who have not tried it, it can be a real eye opener. You may never recover to a full standing position. Often the only recovery from the push would be a front (face) fall. No real choice, just survive.
We do that in judo a lot. We also start back to back the instructor says begin and you have to spin and attack.

I teach a judo class once a week for my bjj school. I'm constantly trying to find better training methods for our MMA guys and even just the bjj guys to improve their ability to keep their balance and win the takedown. Some of the things I do I feel are unique to my little judo class.

We do judo with open hand slaps allowed, judo no gi, judo with only foot sweeps, single, and double leg takedowns allowed. Judo with all illegal throws allowed (like bjj ruleset standup). Judo where one person starts with a underarm bear hug on the other. Judo where one person spins around as fast as he can for 15 seconds before the randori starts (to mimic being knocked hard and still trying to stand up and get the takedown). Judo were both partys spin around as fast as they can for 15 seconds and then randori. Judo where one person has to randori another with a rubber band around their waist being pulled on by two other people. We do judo where only one throw is allowed the entire randori match, so your opponent knows what you are going to do, and you have to really be creative to break his balance.

We also do a lot cardio work while throwing along the way. One thing I like to do recently is get 3 ukes out on the mat, each staggered one-third up and across the mat like so (the X are ukes)
-------------------------------------
| ................................ |
|.......................... X .....|
| ..............X..................|
|.....X............................|
|...................................|
------------------------------------

The rest of the class lines up on left side, they run to the uke and throw him as fast as they can (sometimes uke can resist, sometimes not). Then the uke gets up and runs to touch the edge of the mat in front of the next uke, then runs to the uke and throws him as fast as possible, that uke repeats this process, the last uke runs a lap around the mat (or does squats, pushups, etc) and joins the back of the line. This is a constant stream of throwing where you should be running or throwing non-stop for 3 minutes. Then we have a 30 second break and repeat at least 2 more times. After that we do kumi kata or some level of randori.

Why do I bring this up? Because I think these kind of exercises are what is needed to really build effective skill quickly. This kind of training is what I feel was missing in my aikido training, and why a lot of my aikido training never sank into my skull. I think you need that total package of a) getting in the best physical shape you can, b) working technique, and c) learning to deal with working while out of it, exusted, and with a attacker trying to impose his will on you.

Of course a lot of people think my training methods are too harsh. I have a hard rule to do everything I ask anyone else to do and I sometimes have trouble making it though my own class. I've scared off a few students and really narrowed it down to people who truly want to be effective in their area. We have a couple guys interested in it for MMA, some for bjj, some just for judo, and even a couple guys who do it for self defense. I think we meet all those needs without a problem. To me, this is truely the sign of effective training method, where you can apply what you are learning to multiple situations are not dependent on a single type of combat, or a single attack to make what you are doing work. I always say that just because you are not going to be a professional fighter, does not mean you shouldn't train as close to one as possible.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 02-08-2008, 07:53 PM   #1164
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Matt Williams wrote: View Post
Strangely I doubt many practitioners of any martial art or fighting style would want to meet Ueshiba Sensei to try their best. Foremost for Aikido, as I see from a Judo perspective, is that it can go from zero to 100MPH when needed. Anyone who has seen video of Ueshiba or Shiba Sensei will understand that if the opponent reaches out he will be falling down and often be placed in a maiming position.

I have had the experience to use Judo 3 times in true fighting situations. The last time I was teaching high school at the age of 47. I had just finished a year of training after many years away from the sport. I weighed 155 pounds and stand 5'6". A student, 240 pounds, football player and champion wrestler decided to bear hug me from behind so his friends could take something from my desk. I was seated on a table. He grabbed me very hard. While seated I ducked my shoulder, breaking his grip, grab his right wrist and using a wrist lock led him around the table. He landed face down and I placed my left knee on his elbow. I told him that if he moved I would break his arm.

The class thought they saw me throw him 6' through the air. I explained that Joe was just jumping to keep up with his wrist. It was the best throw I've ever executed and it was done on instinct and training in judo. That is the core of all Martial Arts: training that allows simple and well-executed action to defeat attack.
My main question is, why are there not more practitioners with the skill level of the old greats? To me this is a sign of a problem in training methods. The goal of teaching should be to produce students as good as if not better then the teacher. If you can not consistently produce good results, then something is wrong. Sure, in the classes I teach at the college I get kids who just can't get computers and fail. But the majority of the kids get high marks, a lot get A's. Those who get A's grasp everything I thought they needed to know, and should be able to take what I though them to a higher level then what I can give them.

AKA, I've been there and done that, so you don't have too. Now that I caught you up, get on the horse and see what lies down the road.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 02-08-2008, 08:25 PM   #1165
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Don,

For what it is worth, I love your training methods. I think I will adopt some of them.

I am constantly looking for ways to get people out of the conscious mind and into their subconscious atavistic self. That is the place where the self simply trusts the body to perform because it has been trained to do so.

Who was it that said, "train like your are in competition match and when the day of the match comes, it is just another day of training.
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Old 02-08-2008, 09:53 PM   #1166
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
My main question is, why are there not more practitioners with the skill level of the old greats? To me this is a sign of a problem in training methods. The goal of teaching should be to produce students as good as if not better then the teacher. If you can not consistently produce good results, then something is wrong. Sure, in the classes I teach at the college I get kids who just can't get computers and fail. But the majority of the kids get high marks, a lot get A's. Those who get A's grasp everything I thought they needed to know, and should be able to take what I though them to a higher level then what I can give them.

AKA, I've been there and done that, so you don't have too. Now that I caught you up, get on the horse and see what lies down the road.
I think your thinking is a bit flawed as to why supposedly there aren't a number of practitioners who match the old greats. First off... There are... I can think of a dozen right off the top of my head. The talent is there although talent plays a small part. O'Sensei, Kano, Helio Gracie, John Hackleman and the "greats' all had something in common. Thier lives were/are the Martial Arts. They lived... breathed... and ate... the Martial Arts every day. Almost every waking moment of the greats were spent improving thier practice. Very few of the folks I know (including me) who practice have this this devotion but those that do can and do achieve the same level of "greatness." I submit that anyone who can devote the time, energy, and complete total dedication to thier practice WILL achieve the same level of "greatness" over time.

When I was young I was an Airborne Ranger in a Ranger Battalion. Every waking moment was spent in the pursuit of killing people as quickly and as efficiently as possible with any and every weapon we could get our hands on. Those who did not have complete and total focus on this task were sent packing to other units. The standards were simple. You were either one of the best Infantry Soldiers in the world or you were out. I submit that very few instructors in the Martial Arts have the same kind of mindset and why should they....They have lives to lead...families and jobs too.

My point with my anology is I have "tasted" what it is like to have complete and total focus on being the best at something. After three years of this kind of practice I realized that all I needed to do was apply this kind of mind/heart set to anything and I could achieve the same result.Sadly very few people I know have had this kind of life experiance. Pick any sport or any Martial Art... Apply this kind of dedication.... And you will get to the top of the mountain or die trying. That is what it takes.

Funny thing is as far as Military Achievements go being a Ranger is not the top rung on the ladder. LOL

The task is simple to define...Do you have what it takes to be the best? Are you willing to go to any lengths and make any sacrifice required to achieve it? The result is always the same if you do and can be applied to any practice you set your heart on. You will be one of those "greats."

Training methods have nothing to do with it Don. look to the heart of the man taking the training... look to your own heart... How far you go and what you accomplish is completely up to you.

If you're being taught by someone who does not have the same fire in his eye Move On...You'll find fellow travelers on the journey...If you are the one teaching well... You have an obligation to lead by example... to hold yourself to a higher standard...And to practice hard...

Cynics bore me....They are usually folks looking for an excuse not to push themsleves to be the best they can.

The "Old Greats" all understood this...They did not look to anyone else to "teach it" to them...As O'Sensei once said,

"Instructors can impart only a fraction of the teaching. It is through your own devoted practice that the mysteries of the Art of Peace are brought to life."

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 02-08-2008 at 10:03 PM.
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Old 02-09-2008, 11:58 AM   #1167
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
I think your thinking is a bit flawed as to why supposedly there aren't a number of practitioners who match the old greats. First off... There are... I can think of a dozen right off the top of my head. The talent is there although talent plays a small part. O'Sensei, Kano, Helio Gracie, John Hackleman and the "greats' all had something in common. Thier lives were/are the Martial Arts. They lived... breathed... and ate... the Martial Arts every day. Almost every waking moment of the greats were spent improving thier practice. Very few of the folks I know (including me) who practice have this this devotion but those that do can and do achieve the same level of "greatness." I submit that anyone who can devote the time, energy, and complete total dedication to thier practice WILL achieve the same level of "greatness" over time.

When I was young I was an Airborne Ranger in a Ranger Battalion. Every waking moment was spent in the pursuit of killing people as quickly and as efficiently as possible with any and every weapon we could get our hands on. Those who did not have complete and total focus on this task were sent packing to other units. The standards were simple. You were either one of the best Infantry Soldiers in the world or you were out. I submit that very few instructors in the Martial Arts have the same kind of mindset and why should they....They have lives to lead...families and jobs too.

My point with my anology is I have "tasted" what it is like to have complete and total focus on being the best at something. After three years of this kind of practice I realized that all I needed to do was apply this kind of mind/heart set to anything and I could achieve the same result.Sadly very few people I know have had this kind of life experiance. Pick any sport or any Martial Art... Apply this kind of dedication.... And you will get to the top of the mountain or die trying. That is what it takes.

Funny thing is as far as Military Achievements go being a Ranger is not the top rung on the ladder. LOL

The task is simple to define...Do you have what it takes to be the best? Are you willing to go to any lengths and make any sacrifice required to achieve it? The result is always the same if you do and can be applied to any practice you set your heart on. You will be one of those "greats."

Training methods have nothing to do with it Don. look to the heart of the man taking the training... look to your own heart... How far you go and what you accomplish is completely up to you.

If you're being taught by someone who does not have the same fire in his eye Move On...You'll find fellow travelers on the journey...If you are the one teaching well... You have an obligation to lead by example... to hold yourself to a higher standard...And to practice hard...

Cynics bore me....They are usually folks looking for an excuse not to push themsleves to be the best they can.

The "Old Greats" all understood this...They did not look to anyone else to "teach it" to them...As O'Sensei once said,

"Instructors can impart only a fraction of the teaching. It is through your own devoted practice that the mysteries of the Art of Peace are brought to life."

William Hazen
I'm sorry, I simply can not agree. While it is a personal responsibility to improve yourself, you should not be alone in the pursuit. This is why you train with an instructor. It is the job of the instructor to push you beyond your own personal limits and beyond your breaking point. The training method is the way this is done. Great boxers will never be made by standing in a line throwing jab, cross, hook. Great bjj players will not be made doing nothing but hip movement drills and complaint armbars. Great judo players will not be made doing nothing but randori all day.The best of the best in anything in the world have a training method that developed that skill better then the people lessor than they are.

You mentioned the Gracies, perfect example of what I am talking about. They are no longer the best at bjj in the world. Their students took the art further then they did, developed better training methods, stole from other sports and arts, and made something bigger than what it was. I'm not nearly the best blue belt in my club, but I've been to a few clubs that still train the old way and found out that I was in better shape, had better technique, and better balance then most of the blue belts in those clubs. I've been to other clubs with a even better training method then what I do, and I found I was out classed by everyone there with the same amount of experience as I. I trained in a judo club that did nothing but standing uchi komi for 2 years. Almost no randori, no moving uchi komi, hardly ever a throw line. Of course the brown belts could beat me up, I sucked at every tournament I went to. Then I switched to a gym that trains properly, with a good balance of uchi komi, strength and cardio drills, moving uchi komi, throw lines, moving throw lines, and lots of randori. A few months later I went back to my old gym, I cleaned the mat with all those brown belts. Why? I think the answer is simple. At the old club, they were doing judo, but with a training method that developed the skills much much slower than what could be done. At the other club, they were training judo in such a way to really build skill quickly in every area needed. The same is true with the ground work. In most judo clubs I've been to (except the ones in chicago), mat work is practiced like this. You are shown a pin or submission, you drill it a few seconds, then you do like maybe 1 minute of sparing. When I went to bjj, I was destroyed on the mat by white belts I had a few years of aikido, and almost 2 years of judo. Why? Because their training method was designed to produce better mat work. When I took that mat work back to my judo club, even after just a couple months, I was the "king" of mat work. Today, most of my judo partners train in bjj and have brought that training method with them. We evolved our training method to improve our abilities.

This is in stark contrast to what I've seen in my experience in aikido. I have not heard of anyone taking the art greater than Ueshiba. It seems like his students were not able to reach his level (at least that is what I'm told) and I have not heard of people reaching the levels of his greatest students even. To make matters worse, I see a lot of people modifying their training methods and techniques without ever getting in a fight and finding out how the old ones worked. Simply put, they have no point of reference to be making those changes, so the results are unknown.

But don't get me wrong, I still train from time to time in aikido. But I don't go for the work out. I go to get ideas that I can practice using my training methods. Sense switching to this method of practice, my success rates have gone up. Although my aikido instructor would probably tell me what I am doing is not aikido, and maybe even that I have no right to do it.

And yes, I really think everyone can train as I do. I'm not a jock. If I can do it, I can't see why anyone can't do it. Maybe a little more or less intense, or more or less often, but it can't be done.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 02-09-2008, 01:24 PM   #1168
Aikibu
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I'm sorry, I simply can not agree. While it is a personal responsibility to improve yourself, you should not be alone in the pursuit. This is why you train with an instructor. It is the job of the instructor to push you beyond your own personal limits and beyond your breaking point. The training method is the way this is done. Great boxers will never be made by standing in a line throwing jab, cross, hook. Great bjj players will not be made doing nothing but hip movement drills and complaint armbars. Great judo players will not be made doing nothing but randori all day.The best of the best in anything in the world have a training method that developed that skill better then the people lessor than they are.
Not my experiance at all so we'll just have to disagree. I hear this kind of excuse all the time. "It's not ME Sensei It's the training!" Training methods are very important but they only get you half way. The philosophy of instruction I was taught in the Martial Arts is slightly different and seems to produce good results...It is my "job" to take a person to his/her limit and then show them the point beyond it. Either they step into a new world or they don't. Success or failure means nothing at this stage... Only effort. Pick any cliche in this regard but I like this one... It does not matter how many times you fall down It's about wether or not you have the intestinal fortitude to stand back up and do it again.

Quote:
You mentioned the Gracies, perfect example of what I am talking about. They are no longer the best at bjj in the world. Their students took the art further then they did, developed better training methods, stole from other sports and arts, and made something bigger than what it was. I'm not nearly the best blue belt in my club, but I've been to a few clubs that still train the old way and found out that I was in better shape, had better technique, and better balance then most of the blue belts in those clubs. I've been to other clubs with a even better training method then what I do, and I found I was out classed by everyone there with the same amount of experience as I. I trained in a judo club that did nothing but standing uchi komi for 2 years. Almost no randori, no moving uchi komi, hardly ever a throw line. Of course the brown belts could beat me up, I sucked at every tournament I went to. Then I switched to a gym that trains properly, with a good balance of uchi komi, strength and cardio drills, moving uchi komi, throw lines, moving throw lines, and lots of randori. A few months later I went back to my old gym, I cleaned the mat with all those brown belts. Why? I think the answer is simple. At the old club, they were doing judo, but with a training method that developed the skills much much slower than what could be done. At the other club, they were training judo in such a way to really build skill quickly in every area needed. The same is true with the ground work. In most judo clubs I've been to (except the ones in chicago), mat work is practiced like this. You are shown a pin or submission, you drill it a few seconds, then you do like maybe 1 minute of sparing. When I went to bjj, I was destroyed on the mat by white belts I had a few years of aikido, and almost 2 years of judo. Why? Because their training method was designed to produce better mat work. When I took that mat work back to my judo club, even after just a couple months, I was the "king" of mat work. Today, most of my judo partners train in bjj and have brought that training method with them. We evolved our training method to improve our abilities.
Again training is important I agree However at the risk of repeating myself once again You make my point most convincingly so I don't see why you disagree. Folks took what they were taught and made it better. I find your thinking puzzling in this regard unless of course it's all leading to this....

Quote:
This is in stark contrast to what I've seen in my experience in aikido. I have not heard of anyone taking the art greater than Ueshiba. It seems like his students were not able to reach his level (at least that is what I'm told) and I have not heard of people reaching the levels of his greatest students even. To make matters worse, I see a lot of people modifying their training methods and techniques without ever getting in a fight and finding out how the old ones worked. Simply put, they have no point of reference to be making those changes, so the results are unknown.
Sorry Don but with all due respect I understand this is your experiance. I submit to you that my exposure to Aikido is far more broad based than yours. Like you said "That is what you were told." Did you ever think the folks who told you that did not have any idea or experiance on the subject either? LOL I think I know where this comes from The old Hero Worship Syndrome regarding O'Sensei...This has mutated over the years to the point where some here in the West treat O'Sensei as a Demi-God. You can thank John Stevens for that. Let me say these plainly. The "Old Greats" were men. Thats right men...They did not descend from the heavens... At best one or two my have had great spiritual awakenings... But at the end of the day they were Mortal. That means in my world anyone else here can reach the top of the mountain like they did. 99% of most folks don't want to undertake this task. They're just satisfied with the Journey. All of these Greats I have mentioned recognized that thier Arts were not complete They EXPECTED thier direct students to take them further...Some did and you have many flavors of Aikido now and I will tell you what I may draw allot of heat for this but some of O'Sensei's students lived up to O'Sensei's legacy and the Sword has been passed on to this generation.

It puzzles why you think improving on something somehow lessens the original. All I know is that we have more than one portrait in our Shomen.

Quote:
But don't get me wrong, I still train from time to time in aikido. But I don't go for the work out. I go to get ideas that I can practice using my training methods. Sense switching to this method of practice, my success rates have gone up. Although my aikido instructor would probably tell me what I am doing is not aikido, and maybe even that I have no right to do it.

And yes, I really think everyone can train as I do. I'm not a jock. If I can do it, I can't see why anyone can't do it. Maybe a little more or less intense, or more or less often, but it can't be done.
Good on ya Don. I for one appreciate your insights. Do yourself a favor and continue to explore Aikido. You may just find your own path up the mountain and someone to guide you there.

Take Care my Aiki-Web Friend.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 02-09-2008 at 01:28 PM.
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Old 02-11-2008, 10:20 AM   #1169
Pierre Kewcharoen
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Aikido practitioners don't participate in UFC. But elements of aikido are present, you are just too clueless to see it.

BJJ is good for one vs one. But it won't help you in the street where weapons are involved. Nor while you lock up with one guy while his buddies pound the living crap out of you.

Have a nice day!
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Old 02-11-2008, 04:13 PM   #1170
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Pierre, and when you speak of BJJ, you are speaking from a point of the fact that you have spent time studying it and are ranked in it in someway? Or is this just your opinion?

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Old 02-12-2008, 08:47 AM   #1171
Pierre Kewcharoen
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Pierre, and when you speak of BJJ, you are speaking from a point of the fact that you have spent time studying it and are ranked in it in someway? Or is this just your opinion?
A little of both. I am one to believe that no martial art is greater than another. In order to truly be the best martial artist, you will need to learn them ALL.

It seems the posts i have read so far is comparing street fighting with self defense with tournament fighting which are all completely different. One art is good for one thing but bad for another. I am not knocking bjj at all. I am merely giving my opinion from my experience. I mean no disrespect if I have offended you.

However I am a firm believer that aikido works in a fight whether it be defending or preventing.

Last edited by Pierre Kewcharoen : 02-12-2008 at 08:54 AM.
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Old 02-12-2008, 09:02 AM   #1172
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

[quote=Pierre Kewcharoen;199090

However I am a firm believer that aikido works in a fight whether it be defending or preventing.[/QUOTE]

worked for me.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 02-12-2008, 10:26 AM   #1173
stuarttheobald
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

did you know that Greg Jackson, one of the premier MMA trainers, has his foundation in Aikido...I watched an itnerview with him the other night where he really rated aikido...and lets be honest, he would know

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Old 02-12-2008, 01:04 PM   #1174
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I've used Aikido in fist fights at bars and while deployed overseas with the military.
Thats not the mighty UFC mind you but I'm glad aikido worked when I needed it too.

"But it still doesn't work in UFC!"

Sure I accept that.
That however won't seem as important when 4 or 5 guys try and jump you at 3 am when your with you're wife leaving a bar and you thump them.

It REALLY won't seem that important when your surrounded by a bunch of people and one of them tries to grab your gun and you have the presence of mind and physical ability to stop him.

PS Kevin, I took your advice and tried out BJJ. Love it. I'm going to supplement my Aikido with BJJ, I was pretty surprised at how I managed to apply some Aikido locks and stuff like kneeling technique to my first BJJ class.

Pierre I think perhaps you're buying into what you read a little too much.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
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Old 02-12-2008, 01:11 PM   #1175
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Pierre, you certainly didn't offend me in anyway. I was just asking you to clarify the basis for your statement. That is all.

Experiences are different and it is hard to generalize across the Arts. Your experiences may be different than mine, and that is okay with me.

I only ask that when someone has an opinion about a particular topic that they qualify it with whatever experience base they are coming from, if it is from actual experience, or from watching youtube, or what not.

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