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Old 06-25-2006, 06:46 PM   #1051
Chris Birke
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Standing Armlock In MMA I think someone mentioned this sort of thing didn't happen because it was too violent, or banned, in MMA (fake fights).

Last edited by Chris Birke : 06-25-2006 at 06:50 PM.
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Old 06-25-2006, 07:42 PM   #1052
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

That was cool to watch. thanks for the link to that vid.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 06-25-2006, 10:43 PM   #1053
xuzen
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Chris Birke wrote:
Standing Armlock In MMA I think someone mentioned this sort of thing didn't happen because it was too violent, or banned, in MMA (fake fights).
That was a nasty waki-gatamae or Hiji-shime. This technique scare the hell out of me. My elbow has been sprained many times when some over-zealous newbs put them on me.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 06-30-2006, 11:11 AM   #1054
Jorx
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Yep. Waki-gatame is not banned in MMA. It is very rare however as that technique is hard to master without a lot of resistance training and that can go very wrong
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Old 07-11-2007, 08:38 PM   #1055
Pougee
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

After reading nearly all 43 pages of this thread, it is apparent that some people are worried about the art they are learning. At the moment I am not learning Aikido, but I'm very keen to give it a try. You have to ask yourself why you want to do it. It would seem Aikido is more than just a self defensive art. Its a way of life, a different view on things helping you to become a better person. I myself am an open minded person. I believe that the Ki is real, and that these old forms, spiritually can achieve what they state. But I am questioning myself why do I want to learn Aikido and what do I want to get out of it. And to be perfectly honest I want the knoweledge that If I'm ever in a situation where I have to protect myself or others I want to be able to do it confidently. I have also have some damage done to me awhile back now which has never fully healed. Its has caused me to have no balance and little coordination in some aspects. Can I look towards Aikido to improve the way my body moves. I play a lot of squash also. I dont know if anyone has every seen it played or played it themselves. I just get the felling Aikido would improve my game with reaction times, short thinking into shot play and all round movement on the court. Also another big factor of squash, being more aware of your opponent.

After reading this thread It is obvious that Aikido is very effective in self defense. And that learning BJJ with Aikido do really go hand in hand. I know this is sort of off topic, but this thread has evolved into something more than the simple question "Does Aikido work in fights". I hope some people maybe be able to shed some light onto my view on things.

Also is a massive thread that needs to be revived
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Old 07-11-2007, 09:05 PM   #1056
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote: View Post
Yep. Waki-gatame is not banned in MMA. It is very rare however as that technique is hard to master without a lot of resistance training and that can go very wrong
Isn't this an extremely common Shodokan randori technique?
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Old 07-11-2007, 10:36 PM   #1057
PeterR
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
Isn't this an extremely common Shodokan randori technique?
Yes - for sure one of my favorites.

But I tell you without good control and good attitude it can be a real bastard of a techniuqe.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-11-2007, 11:25 PM   #1058
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

YES!, YES!

It took over a year! But it is baaaack! I knew it would be one day!

goes to show you...all you need is a little patience and time when studying aikido!

Waki gatame...why would it be illegal? many competitions disallow small joint manipulations but shoulders and elbows are open season for whatever position you capture them in. I cannot recall any MMA rules or grappling that disallow a shoulder on elbow lock.

Welcome Maynard!

if you took the time to read all these post and are STILL looking for the answer to those very relevant and legitmate concerns...you probably will not get them answered any better here!

Anyway, it is good to ask, and think about, and discuss for sure!

Welcome again, and look forward to the ensuing discussion!

YES...it is back!

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Old 07-12-2007, 01:45 AM   #1059
dalen7
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
wrote: View Post
and it is clear to me that Aikido and it's techniques and it's way of training do not prepare anyone to actually fight.

I know that Aikido practitioners talk a lot about concepts like spirituality, harmony...etc. but I also hear people talk about how it is a pratical means of self defense.

Aikido does not have practical striking techniques or any REAL matwork at all. I would like to know how Aikido can be used as self defense if you cannot grapple or strike.
- As far as not preparing the to fight, it depends on perspective.
Most people want to be cool and show they are better by putting the other down. - we do this not only in physical fights but in words as well. Its an old mentality, but one that can change...is there a need to fight. - for me it is helping me (that is Aikido) to better understand to not need to fight. Having peace inside will attract peace outside. See this prepares for the fight in that it ended before it even started, pretty good self-defense if you ask me.

But as for satisfying the ego (ones identity in an object, role, story, etc) its a bummer. Because in the 'mind' the story is 'Ha, Im still better...if you would just fight I would beat you.'

See the story equates beating someone in a pulp as victory and does not understand that controll over ones actions and attitude is more of a victory and less of 'animal' extinct and yet another step in evolution. Dont feel bad if you or anyone has that desire to prove oneself...heck I still face that temptation at times to prove myself...but then I ask myself why I really want to.

So that answers the first 2 questions quoted above.

As far as its techniques not working...well, let me put it this way.
When I am put in 'ikkyo' I feel it...Nikkyo, sankyo, name it, I feel it - and sometimes I feel it a little to much.

Also, you learn to go with the flow or you will be 'broke' if you resist.
Thats why it looks fake, because someone who has wised up (or been taught as in Aikido) will know to 'follow' as not to resist and have your wrist or elbow snapped in half.

True that the uke appear to overdue it at times...but thats neither here nor there - or rather it does not detract from the fact that there is pain that can be inflicted.

Now is it practical in a fight? I think it depends on the circumstance completely. If you are going against a skilled fighter...you probably will need to be skilled as well, or your responses wont be quick enough or accurate enough.

Also about strikes, many of the movements allow you to strike...and we practice fake striking, as Im sure the uke doesnt want a bloody nose each time we practice. So yes that part is fake. But if you want to be bad boy, strike and kick and during your aikido moves...the opportunity will present itself. - Fact is there is not a martial art above another...and this is also not great for the ego who wants to have the 'best' and be the 'best' by kicking and putting down the most people. And again, the nature of Aikido is not really in that direction, but again, I suppose it can be.

I do like the fact that Im not using my body as a human shield to protect myself, and trying to follow what nature is doing by flowing with what is happening.

Anyway...

Peace

Dalen
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Old 07-12-2007, 07:46 AM   #1060
Cyrijl
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

This thread is great. 7 years after is creation it continues to haunt and annoy the posters and lurkers of aikiweb.

When we all return to dust and robots have taken over the world, some ancient self-animated blackberry will come on an post "What people don't realize is X,Y,Z...."

Two add more thant just this comment, we just got an aikidoka in my bjj class. He is not flimsy or weak or delusional as is often purported to be the case of aikidoka outside of this sanctuary. Like everything in life, you have to be reasonable about your perceptions, goals and return on investment.

Last edited by Cyrijl : 07-12-2007 at 07:48 AM. Reason: wanted to add more than just a comment

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Old 07-12-2007, 08:01 AM   #1061
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
So that answers the first 2 questions quoted above.

As far as its techniques not working...well, let me put it this way.
When I am put in 'ikkyo' I feel it...Nikkyo, sankyo, name it, I feel it - and sometimes I feel it a little to much.

Also, you learn to go with the flow or you will be 'broke' if you resist.
Thats why it looks fake, because someone who has wised up (or been taught as in Aikido) will know to 'follow' as not to resist and have your wrist or elbow snapped in half.
The question is not does this lock break your wrist, or can an eye gouge really blind someone. The answers are obvious. We all know what can happen when you put a lock on and don't stop, you break something or tear something. The question is, can you actually get those moves to work on a person who is resisting. Not resisting after you have the lock, but resisting from the moment the conflict starts. Can you get it to work on a guy trying his best to knock your block off. Can you get it to work on fast guys, slow guys, big guys, little guys, trained guys, noobs, etc.

Once you answer that question, the next is, how reliable is your technique. Does it work 10% of the time? 20% of the time? Only against noobs, only against bigger people, only against slower people? Is there something else that is higher percentage that you can use in the same place?

In bjj I can do all sorts of cool stuff to noobs. However a lot of this cool stuff is very hit or miss and requires a lot of setup to work on a guy with even 6 months of bjj. I then have to ask, is it worth all this work and setup when they are vulnerable to a much higher percentage attack? Am I just trying to look cool?

I have to say it is not if the style works, it is if you train it to work. The more I read this article http://www.judoinfo.com/tomiki2.htm the more I realize that without aliveness, you are mostly spinning your wheels.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-12-2007, 08:33 AM   #1062
Erik Calderon
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I've always believed that it's the man that makes the art, not the art that makes the man.

Erik Calderon
http://www.shinkikan.com

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Old 07-12-2007, 08:39 AM   #1063
dalen7
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Once you answer that question, the next is, how reliable is your technique. Does it work 10% of the time? 20% of the time? Only against noobs, only against bigger people, only against slower people? Is there something else that is higher percentage that you can use in the same place?

In bjj I can do all sorts of cool stuff to noobs. However a lot of this cool stuff is very hit or miss and requires a lot of setup to work on a guy with even 6 months of bjj. I then have to ask, is it worth all this work and setup when they are vulnerable to a much higher percentage attack? Am I just trying to look cool?
Well, for me, it is hopefully to never have to fight.
Personally, I dislike grappling...I like hard strikes, kicks.
Infact Aikido is really border line, and had I not incorporated it into my spiritual journey, I would have considered Aikido grappling and stayed away.

I pointed out that I dont have 'experience' in martial arts besides my new quest in aikido...but when attacked by a 'judo' guy (my brother in law) it ended with him getting his face kicked in (literally) and a follow up with a punch...his judo did him no good. His intent to harm someone based on bullying was not enough. (a knee almost landed him in the face had I not held back to not hurt him)

When younger I wrestled against a varsity wrestler who was good but thought that strength did not play as much at technique. I was 145lbs and benched 250lbs and he couldnt get me pinned, or rather keep me pinned...and also I did not punch or kick - which in a real situation would have ended it to.

So again, it depends on where you are at.
Yes if I want to kick butt, I would stay away from all grappling (actually maybe I would learn bbj just to know what my 'enemy' if I wanted to call them that, knows)

But alas, I have chosen the path of peace
So Aikido is a true challenge stylistically, because I naturally react in a thai boxing manner despite never training in it.

- but to help answer the question you posed - I believe I mentioned earlier, however Aikido would seem to work against the average person who is hot tempered yet not a trained fighter. (bar brawls, etc)
If you have a fast boxer...not really sure.

Peace

DAlen

Last edited by dalen7 : 07-12-2007 at 08:53 AM.
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Old 07-12-2007, 09:04 AM   #1064
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
I naturally react in a thai boxing manner despite never training in it.
Wow! Dalen has genetically-encoded Muay Thai!

I got stuck with DNA-Kyudo. All I can do is draw a bow really, really slowly and hit a target five feet away.

Last edited by Paul Sanderson-Cimino : 07-12-2007 at 09:09 AM.
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Old 07-12-2007, 09:09 AM   #1065
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Now is it practical in a fight? I think it depends on the circumstance completely. If you are going against a skilled fighter...you probably will need to be skilled as well, or your responses wont be quick enough or accurate enough.
Fact is: I have never seen an Aikido techniques performed against a jab. Or a solid cross. This leads me to believe Aikido is best used on untrained people who lunge at you with their attacks. Hence why we always step in with shomen/yokomen/tsuki...

Quote:
Well, for me, it is hopefully to never have to fight.
Personally, I dislike grappling...I like hard strikes, kicks.
So did the many Karateka who challenged the Gracies. It's a shame their hard kicks and punches weren't possible on the ground.

Funny thing is, I have less of an urge to fight ever since I started MMA then when I was doing Aikido. My uke cooperated with my in Aikido...or gave me far too much generous energy to work with. I never felt satisfied after a throw because I knew he made it possible for me. In MMA, my "uke" did not give me any room to breath. Every successful throw/pin/submission I got rewarded my mind as I could feel myself improving, realistically. Why would I want to fight someone or prove my skills when I do it against resisting opponents on the mat almost everyday?

Just like how people think all guys who compete in UFC/Pride are thugs who like to smack people around on the street. I think after fighting a grueling match against a world class opponent in the ring/cage, the LAST thing they want or need is to get involved in something on the street. Read up some wise words by the legendary Bas Rutten regarding fighting on the street.

Most of all, have fun and learn. Grappling/striking for me is play time, not fight time. Find the art that's right for you. If it's Aikido, then that's excellent. Finding your peace doesn't necessarily mean you have to do the most peaceful martial art around.

Last edited by Roman Kremianski : 07-12-2007 at 09:11 AM.
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Old 07-12-2007, 09:25 AM   #1066
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Nice post, Roman. Especially because, curious, I googled "Bas Rutten Quotes" and got this:

http://zine.infinitemma.com/index.ph..._Rutten_Quotes

Quote:
Bas Rutten wrote:
Stephen Quadros: They tell me getting kicked by Mo Smith is like getting hit by a baseball bat at 85 mph.

Bas Rutten: No. I don't think so.
Heeheeheehee.
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Old 07-12-2007, 09:38 AM   #1067
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Maynard Hicks wrote: View Post
After reading nearly all 43 pages of this thread, it is apparent that some people are worried about the art they are learning. At the moment I am not learning Aikido, but I'm very keen to give it a try. You have to ask yourself why you want to do it. It would seem Aikido is more than just a self defensive art. Its a way of life, a different view on things helping you to become a better person. I myself am an open minded person. I believe that the Ki is real, and that these old forms, spiritually can achieve what they state. But I am questioning myself why do I want to learn Aikido and what do I want to get out of it. And to be perfectly honest I want the knoweledge that If I'm ever in a situation where I have to protect myself or others I want to be able to do it confidently. I have also have some damage done to me awhile back now which has never fully healed. Its has caused me to have no balance and little coordination in some aspects. Can I look towards Aikido to improve the way my body moves. I play a lot of squash also. I dont know if anyone has every seen it played or played it themselves. I just get the felling Aikido would improve my game with reaction times, short thinking into shot play and all round movement on the court. Also another big factor of squash, being more aware of your opponent.

After reading this thread It is obvious that Aikido is very effective in self defense. And that learning BJJ with Aikido do really go hand in hand. I know this is sort of off topic, but this thread has evolved into something more than the simple question "Does Aikido work in fights". I hope some people maybe be able to shed some light onto my view on things.

Also is a massive thread that needs to be revived
Hi Maynard,
I only have a brief moment to write today but I would like you to know that I am spiritually like minded, as you.And I don't only believe aikido works in fights, I have proven it in my own radical little life. I would love to tell you more, talk about how and why, and also answer your other questions in depth. from the expereince of my training. Answers that are superficially, Yes, yes, yes, and ........yes!
Don't you fret! You can and will improve your bodies connective routes and re-achieve cooridination on a level that will encourage you to play to your fullest again!
I agree. This is an amazing thread that would be lovely to revive. I'll look for you again in the next day or two. Please check back!!!!
Jen Smith

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 07-12-2007, 10:52 AM   #1068
dalen7
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
Wow! Dalen has genetically-encoded Muay Thai!

I got stuck with DNA-Kyudo. All I can do is draw a bow really, really slowly and hit a target five feet away.
Well, thats pretty cool...my whole thing is trying to achieve the ability to be 'still' (patient?) in my actions so that I can be more aware of the moment. - Kyudo seems like it would be quite a good practice for such aspirations... I have heard of this art (after reading its description, not by name.)

The best to you in your practice.

Peace

Dalen
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Old 07-12-2007, 10:53 AM   #1069
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
Fact is: I have never seen an Aikido techniques performed against a jab. Or a solid cross. This leads me to believe Aikido is best used on untrained people who lunge at you with their attacks. Hence why we always step in with shomen/yokomen/tsuki...
hello roman
i think your point is very valid but i would say your conclusion may be a tad of the mark.
I would say that what you describe can be applied to a kick or attempt to grab. it is not so much the technique, it is the delivery

if your opponet is centered (ie nor over extending his stike), which i understand you mean by solid. nothing is going to work until you take his centralisation away.
The only way I know is via atemi used as a one time counter
(and it is easier said than done, but at least you do not need to be
significantly better in aikido than he his in whatever he is doing).
someting irimi or irimi tenkan based.

You can try to tenchin away & grab all you life, unless you are someone of the caliber of Obata sensei (from toronto) fat chance of anything happeneing before a re jab, a cross, a kick, a spinned chassé or breing ran down for lacking space to back up.

phil

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Old 07-12-2007, 11:11 AM   #1070
dalen7
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post

The only way I know is via atemi used as a one time counter
(and it is easier said than done, but at least you do not need to be
significantly better in aikido than he his in whatever he is doing).
someting irimi or irimi tenkan based.

phil
irimi is the one thing along with all things surwari I dont like in aikido.
But Im trying to learn the benefit of it all.

Now ikkyo I totally dig - against a punch, maybe not...but against silly people that want to 'grab' at you because they are 'judo' king...I think it would work charmingly enough.

Peace

Dalen
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Old 07-12-2007, 11:14 AM   #1071
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
irimi is the one thing along with all things surwari I dont like in aikido.
But Im trying to learn the benefit of it all.

Now ikkyo I totally dig - against a punch, maybe not...but against silly people that want to 'grab' at you because they are 'judo' king...I think it would work charmingly enough.

Peace

Dalen
Just be careful that the guy is not a skilled judo man, or you might quickly find yourself on the wrong end of a harai goshi. Judo, like boxing, bjj, mauy thai, etc is very dangerous inside its range of fighting (the clinch).

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-12-2007, 11:20 AM   #1072
dalen7
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Just be careful that the guy is not a skilled judo man, or you might quickly find yourself on the wrong end of a harai goshi. Judo, like boxing, bjj, mauy thai, etc is very dangerous inside its range of fighting (the clinch).
I would tend to agree with this - I was more generalizing about the type of people who take some lessons but never get the point...but true enough, I doubt I would knowingly go against anyone 'skilled' - and probably wouldnt need to, doubt they would be starting fights...but you never know. Im not against the art of 'run as quick as you can away'

As much as I have read about BJJ and despite my lack of taste for grappling, I would be interested in trying it...but the closest place is a few hours away. (that I know of)...and I read quite a bit about 'gracies' - guess its time to wiki them.

Peace

Dalen
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Old 07-12-2007, 11:48 AM   #1073
Dewey
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Joseph Connolly wrote: View Post
This thread is great. 7 years after is creation it continues to haunt and annoy the posters and lurkers of aikiweb...

Two add more thant just this comment, we just got an aikidoka in my bjj class. He is not flimsy or weak or delusional as is often purported to be the case of aikidoka outside of this sanctuary. Like everything in life, you have to be reasonable about your perceptions, goals and return on investment.
Good Lord! I didn't realize this thread existed until it was resurrected a couple days ago! I'm not sure I'll read every post (well over 1,000...yikes!), but it has made for some interesting reading. This truly is an issue of concern for some folks, no matter their position on the matter.

Per your second comment: indeed, there is no "perfect" or "best" martial art/style. Each art/style has its strengths, weaknesses and deficiencies. Every art/style was originally conceived & designed to address certain situations and scenarios, and no one art/style can exhaustively address them all.

After browsing this thread, I respond to this 7-year itching thread by saying: if someone is overly-concerned about developing their "fightin' skilz"...they'd be a fool to rely upon only one art/style. Self-defense skills, though, are an entirely different matter of discussion...

Last edited by Dewey : 07-12-2007 at 11:50 AM.
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Old 07-12-2007, 03:14 PM   #1074
Cyrijl
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 188
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Roman,
You really seemed to have made quite the turnaround. If I remember correctly there was a time when you are rather anti-mma. I could be mistaken however....

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Old 07-12-2007, 04:09 PM   #1075
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 975
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
..... The question is, can you actually get those moves to work on a person who is resisting. Not resisting after you have the lock, but resisting from the moment the conflict starts. Can you get it to work on a guy trying his best to knock your block off ......
There was a column in BLACK BELT a while ago about how such techniques are verified in MMA fights .... but that edges. Say, for instance, when a fight is stopped because someone takes a hit in the eye. I saw a fight reply in the Spike show in which a very big guy took a hit in the eye. That hurt him enough that he couldn't defend himself and his side though in the towel. If you follow boxing and MMA I'm sure you can think of other examples of fights stopped because one fighter took a hit in or near an eye, including situations where you get a bloody cut.

Likewise, he sighted the example of a fight stopped because someone took a knee shot in the groin; he was carried out of the ring.

Unfortunately, it's been months since I read the article, which I believe was on of Keith Vargo's columns. If you really want a precise citation, I can hunt for it. The point was to look at when fights are stopped for reasons other than a knockout or a submission. When it's because of hits in or near the eye, yes, it looks like you can reach that target if someone is trying to knock your block off, and you shouldn't put it down.
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