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Old 05-18-2006, 05:06 PM   #851
Man of Aiki
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I understand where you are coming from Kevin.

My background is more towards Aikido as a practical self-defense art, not the more New Age 'drop the person with the mystical Ki energy' type that so often is seen.

For a fight with a person on the street, many of the Aikido techs. I've learned will work fine. I'm not gonna give a person multiple chances to shoot in on me in fight.

It's true if I let the same person shoot in several times, after a few times he's going to force me to do something else.

You seem to come from more of a sport-oriented BJJ background where "OK that worked once, and that technique worked once, now what are you going to do when he shoots in for the 3rd time?

In a street situation if the same person got to shoot in on me for a 3rd time, I must have really blown the waza the first two times.

I don't train in it like a sport and I don't have teachers that teach it like a sport; it's not a 2 out of 3 deal.

On the not falling backwards thing during a shoot attempt. There are plenty of things trained Aikidoka can do to keep a shoot attempt from reaching the point where the attacker is now firmly got both arms around you and is beginning to try to topple you.

IF it gets that far, most people panic and either try to spin out of it (big mistake) or hammer the attacker on the back (pretty much useless). He only needs a second or two to compromise your balance and take you down.

If you're trained and mentally prepared, lets say despite everything you did, he's shot in and he's now settled in with his arms around you and you have less than a second to do something or you are going backwards.

I'm just introducing a suggestion here. Instead of waiting to be taken backwards, why not intentionally and forcefully drop your entire bodyweight down onto your knees? Not only does it take away his advantage of being below your center of gravity, it gives you a stronger base from which to fend him off.

If you train diligently in suwari waza, this certainly is a viable option and it should not be dismissed out of hand.

I have not said anywhere in any way that training in ground skills and learning to defend yourself from your back is not necessary.

What I am questioning is the assured attitude I see that "Once a guy shoots in on you, as an Aikidoist you're done for. It's time to switch from Aikido to something else."

If I do end up on my back, certianly I'm going to use the BJJ I've learned so far to defend myself.

I just question the idea that Aikidoka don't have ability or techniques to fend off a low shoot effectively.
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Old 05-18-2006, 05:19 PM   #852
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Brian Cates wrote:

I'm just introducing a suggestion here. Instead of waiting to be taken backwards, why not intentionally and forcefully drop your entire bodyweight down onto your knees? Not only does it take away his advantage of being below your center of gravity, it gives you a stronger base from which to fend him off.
Find someone with a decent shot and put it to the test. This looks to me like something that sounds ok in theory but is not so great in applicaiton.

My concern would be, if he's already in that position he's driving forward. As you drop to your knees he continues to drive forward. Even if you manage to land in a strong seiza, he's driving forward and may well drive your torso back over your ankles endangering them.

Like I say - find someone with a shoot and test it.
I'm left asking the same question I always ask myself in these threads. Good reliable defences to the shoot exist. They are proven and effective when done well. Why do people feel the need to ignore them and theorise about much more low % possibilities (if indeed they can be made to work at all) just so they can say "see we now have an *Aikido* response". Why not just take the response that already works and use that? (I personally think the sprawl is very aiki anyway)

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-18-2006, 05:38 PM   #853
Mark Freeman
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

On Kaitenage, most people accept that ikkyo is a valid technique in a 'real' situation. Why not convert ikkyo into kaitenage by sliding the elbow hand and cutting down to create the drop? Just a thought. But then why try to make kaitenage or any other technique work in the first place.

On a low shoot, I have had no practical practice of a defence against this type of attack, but what comes to mind is if someone is going for your lower body what is to stop you kicking them full in the face?? Not aiki, maybe, but effective, I don't know. I don't do the fighting thing, but I can't imagine trying to use ineffective attempts of any sort if it came down to a 'serious' self defence situation.

No doubt those of you who have more experience in this type of training will put me right

regards
Mark

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Old 05-18-2006, 05:51 PM   #854
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I think a knee to the face would be the most obvious thing. However from numerous UFC fights I've seen, most times it doesnt work, due to timing and accuracy of the knee and at that time a double leg takedown ends up being an easy single leg takedown if you know what I mean.
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Old 05-18-2006, 05:57 PM   #855
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Brian wrote:

Quote:
If you're trained and mentally prepared, lets say despite everything you did, he's shot in and he's now settled in with his arms around you and you have less than a second to do something or you are going backwards.

I'm just introducing a suggestion here. Instead of waiting to be taken backwards, why not intentionally and forcefully drop your entire bodyweight down onto your knees? Not only does it take away his advantage of being below your center of gravity, it gives you a stronger base from which to fend him off.
I can't think of anything worse you could possibly do! You just committed suicide.

No my background is not primarily sport BJJ. 8 years of karate, 10 years of aikido, 10 years of Army Training, 2 years of Modern Army Combatives, 1 year of BJJ in parallel to M.A.C. BJJ is our basis, and we don't take a sport approach to it.

Here's the deal Brian... I am picturing you are making some assumptions about what real attacks are. It is not a sport attack, or an aikido kamae...it is an ambush that you are not ready for and he has picked the time, place, and conditions. Your response is not one of proactivity but of reactivity.

In most real attacks you do not have the iniative of the advantage...your opponent does. He has sized you up, found a percieved weakness, and is exploiting it. If it happens to be a shoot...it is too late for you to do anything other than react and recover most of the time.

Therefore, you sprawl if you are lucky. You duck down and clinch if you are lucky, you go backwards, separate from him, breakfall, come up in a recovery guarded posture and regain fighting stance if you are lucky. You breakfall, roll backwards and come up in fighting stance...worse case...he fixes you and you go to the guard and start to sweep and regain control.

You do not fall to your knees! Please don't do this! Try it out like Michael says.

Nobody said aikidoka don't have the ability to fend off. I named several things above that are in the aikido vitae.

You have to be very careful with your assumptions. One thing I don't like about aikido is that it is principle oriented in nature so we always train with a certain amount of ettiquette. You cannot transfer this to what will happen in reality. We don't, at least I haven't, trained much where we plan for failure in a fight in aikido.

If you are the attackee, you probably have failed and the attacker already has dominance....training from this point on is very important for reality. It ain't a sport thing...it is a reality thing.
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Old 05-18-2006, 05:57 PM   #856
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Mark, a good shot is designed to disrupt your balance (base). An attempt at kicking will only put that balance more in jeopordy. Couple this with the fact that someone who is good at shooting will not be diving in head first (like say a rugby tackle) but will be maintaining their torso in an upright posture and protecting their head and the kicking option, while tempting, is not ideal.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-18-2006, 06:03 PM   #857
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

also, Michael points out something that is very important when you start talking about reality fighting...percentages. You cannot predict what will occur in a fight and what techniques will work. In DO arts you strive to perfect yourself over a long time. In reality, you go with "safe and effective". simple things that work for you as a "high percentage" of success.

i.e. I would rarely try shionage in a real situation. Doesn't mean that it is not a valid technique, just means there are much simplier things that work more effectively. Kotegaeshi comes to mind. You don't need a lot of breadth to be effective..just a few things that work in most situations, most of the time.

We lose sight of this when we train in the DO arts as our focus is to increase our overall skill and to become better and holilistic. Combat effectiveness does not require this level of expertise.
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Old 05-18-2006, 06:07 PM   #858
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Michael wrote:

Quote:
Mark, a good shot is designed to disrupt your balance (base). An attempt at kicking will only put that balance more in jeopordy. Couple this with the fact that someone who is good at shooting will not be diving in head first (like say a rugby tackle) but will be maintaining their torso in an upright posture and protecting their head and the kicking option, while tempting, is not ideal.
Yeah, you need to be moving your feet and getting out of the way with your center and trying to regain posture in one of a few different ways. Kicking only causes you to be stationary. This is assuming that the shoot has already defeated your ability to place an effective kick. If it is someone that is stupid and has no skill and he shoots within kicking range...then all means i'd kick the crap out of him!

On that note, if he shoots and leads with his head and does not close distance properly...a guillotine works wonders!

We are not proposing that you default to the ground. Michael and I are both assuming that the shoot is effective and you cannot avoid it any other way but to evade with a sprawl or a breakfall.
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Old 05-18-2006, 06:12 PM   #859
Mark Freeman
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
Mark, a good shot is designed to disrupt your balance (base). An attempt at kicking will only put that balance more in jeopordy. Couple this with the fact that someone who is good at shooting will not be diving in head first (like say a rugby tackle) but will be maintaining their torso in an upright posture and protecting their head and the kicking option, while tempting, is not ideal.
Thanks Michael, that puts it into some form of perspective for me, as I said I am ignorant of this attack. I agree that kicking is not ideal as stability is much greater with both legs on the ground.
I really ought to start watching more of this fighting stuff you guys are always talking about, so as not to sound so daft in this thread.

regards
Mark

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Old 05-18-2006, 06:18 PM   #860
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Watching! Ya gotta start doing it!

I used to watch alot of UFC before I got involved in what I am doing now. It didn't make much sense to me as I did not have the base to break it down and analyze it properly. Ya have to watch it, but you also have to do it as well. It is not until you start making the mistakes and going back to the drawingboard do you start understanding and figuring things out.
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Old 05-18-2006, 07:17 PM   #861
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

What Kevin said. I remember when I first started convincing my aikido friends to come over and watch the ufc with me. I'd been dabbling in BJJ for a little while. Every time I let out a "oohhh!" as someone nearly got into position for a sub, they'd be looking at me like "what. What just happened. "

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-18-2006, 07:25 PM   #862
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
Mark, a good shot is designed to disrupt your balance (base). An attempt at kicking will only put that balance more in jeopordy. Couple this with the fact that someone who is good at shooting will not be diving in head first (like say a rugby tackle) but will be maintaining their torso in an upright posture and protecting their head and the kicking option, while tempting, is not ideal.
Heh, only if you kick for "kicking"'s sake, which is what a lot of kickboxers do.
Most kicks that you see in this day and age, (and that goes for kyokushin, kickboxing, strikers in general), throw the bodies connections out of whack when they execute the kick. That is, they disrupt their own balance.

If you can move the lower body without compromising the upper body's center of balance, you might find you can have a solid base to "kick" from, and even if you miss, the shooter has a hard time taking you down
Plus you get the added bonus of a spine loaded kick if it lands.

'Course, you have to train this particular skill, but I've found more than a couple grapplers that get confused when they couldn't take me down (Even though I was technically on one leg when they made the shoot, and no I didn't sprawl out of it)

And people thoughtt the sumo ceremonial leg raising was done so that they don't fall over when they take a crap

*edit
By the by,
I thought I'd mention that the whole reason that a good shoot takes someone down is simply because they're focused on keeping themselves in balance/proper posture as they go through the movement. The shooter's axis/spine/core (whatever you want to call it) displaces the kickers' axis, which is what causes the unbalancing effect, which knocks you on your ass.
Buuut, if you get someone that's got a more trained/solid core than the shooter, well, the shooter's in for a surprise when he tries to take them down. It's like slamming into a dense rubber pole, staked to the ground

Last edited by Upyu : 05-18-2006 at 07:29 PM.
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Old 05-18-2006, 07:43 PM   #863
DH
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Hah

Even more fun when its a 6' solid 210 pounder hitting a 5' 7"150 pounder and getting planted or bouncing off. I love the comments later. "He's so strong."...
I think "Yup, you keep telling yourself that.

Hard rubber is a good term, I use it myself.

But of course you know...you only learn body-connnection by fighting...er ...right?
That solo stuff is for fairies Rob. Do you feel all granola crunchy in your bell bottoms?

Me

Last edited by DH : 05-18-2006 at 07:55 PM.
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Old 05-18-2006, 07:50 PM   #864
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Dan, could you pretty please package that 210 pounder and fedex him to Japan for me
Though we did get a new guy in the aunkai recently, about 190lb, all muscle. The solo exercises are excruciating for him now...but I think training with him will become excruciating for me, once his body starts to get connected
I prefer blueberries with my granola thank you
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Old 05-18-2006, 08:00 PM   #865
DH
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Actually I am trying to beg and cash in any remaining husband points I can scrounge up -to get to Japan again
And in between classes of my fist love-Koryu weapons- pay you hooligans a visit. I promise you we will have a blast and laugh out loud.

me
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Old 05-18-2006, 08:30 PM   #866
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Brian Cates wrote:
I'm just introducing a suggestion here. Instead of waiting to be taken backwards, why not intentionally and forcefully drop your entire bodyweight down onto your knees? Not only does it take away his advantage of being below your center of gravity, it gives you a stronger base from which to fend him off.
One of the first things I learned in BJJ class was an escape from side control that ended with gaining a side control of your own by applying a double leg takedown to a kneeling partner. What I'm saying is, going to your knees isn't going to stop the takedown. It'll still work just fine whether he grabs you by the calves or by the thighs, or whether he lifts and turns or just drives through. I imagine that going to your knees might mean that he'll end up on top of you in the mount or half mount instead of the guard though.
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Old 05-18-2006, 09:01 PM   #867
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

So you're saying if he's got the shoot locked in and is about to topple you dropping down onto your knees is suicide?

OK, got it.

So letting him drop me onto my back and mount me is a much safer option?

Let's just say I'm skeptical.
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Old 05-18-2006, 10:04 PM   #868
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Brian Cates wrote:
So you're saying if he's got the shoot locked in and is about to topple you dropping down onto your knees is suicide?

OK, got it.

So letting him drop me onto my back and mount me is a much safer option?

Let's just say I'm skeptical.
No, a sprawl or whizzer is the best option, in that order. Or so I hear. Pulling guard would be the best option once you hit the deck though, because from there you can defend and attempt to sweep to the top position.

There's a whole category of fighting style called "sprawl and brawl." I think this would have to be your gameplan if you're really attached to standing up. Sprawl to avoid the takedown, and as they attempt to re-establish base, take balance and throw via whichever appendage you can grab.

Then again this is assuming your assailant is someone who's wrestled in high school, say, and knows how to perform a takedown. I suppose a random drunk might just charge in bent over 90 degrees in a perfect position for kaiten.
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Old 05-19-2006, 01:38 AM   #869
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Dan/Rob,

I think our starting point of where and how the fight starts is different. I have no doubts that someone could conceivably stand on one leg, also have no doubts that a tai chi master could root himself and use his "internal abilitites".

There are so many assumptions that we make when we define in our minds the conditions and situation surrounding a fight. I think most people have a skewed perception.

You have to plan for failure both physically, emotionally, and mentally. The best laid plans in rehersals or training go out the window when the first round is fired.

If you have not prepared yourself for this, then I don't care how long you have studied or how proficient you are in the dojo, you are not prepared to fight for your life.

Most BJJ guys make the same assumptions by the way about fights. It is natural as we tend to build dojo habits and have necessary ettiquette in dojo to allow for a safe and productive environment for all.

Not insinuating that Rob or Dan don't understand this. Just pointing out a current theme I see when people say "well if he did this, i'd do that". "or one time a grappler shot on me and I did this and it worked". It may not equate to reality...and that is where I am coming from when I am addressing these things.

On another note. I learned how to punch years ago in the traditional martial art way. My Vale Tudo instructor showed me how to fight differently. It was totally contrary to everything I had learned, weight not distributed evenly....more looping punches...what you guys would call external power.

What Liddell...he punches that way because it works...not because it is necessarily principally correct on proper alignment etc...but because it works in reality.

Hence...that is where Matt Thornton is coming from.

It is good to study correct use of body, posture, ki and all that...but, in reality you find a 70 to 90 percent solution that works...and that is what you go with.
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Old 05-19-2006, 01:49 AM   #870
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
You have to plan for failure both physically, emotionally, and mentally. The best laid plans in rehersals or training go out the window when the first round is fired.
I think Dan would be the first to agree with that, and I'll jump on that bandwagon in a heartbeat.

I just think the "core" of the training needs to be comprised of exercises that you specifically tailor to yourself so that you move as efficiently as possible in training.

Then, you go into the playbox, balls to the wall, and see how much you can keep it together.

Cuz you've rewired your body to move in this "special" way in daily life as well, it carries over even when the shit hits the fan.

The standing on one leg thing was an example. Btw, I didn't mean that you stand there resisting the shoot. Just that, in transition, when the shooter goes for the leg and expects it to give, it doesn't.
You don't fall, he gets in a bad position, and in the next moment you have the upper hand

I agree with you on people yakking about "oh I would've done this or that" tho. All that counts is what works at that moment.

Like Dan said before, internal skills and fighting are two different things. But, they can be combined. Its up to the person to do so.
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Old 05-19-2006, 06:45 AM   #871
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Keith Krajewski wrote:
No, a sprawl or whizzer is the best option, in that order. Or so I hear. Pulling guard would be the best option once you hit the deck though, because from there you can defend and attempt to sweep to the top position.
Keith, you forgot to include knees to the face at the end of that list!

Keith Lee
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Old 05-25-2006, 11:43 AM   #872
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Would someone please explain to me what a 'whizzer' is exactly,
it sounds great.
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Old 05-25-2006, 12:47 PM   #873
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Check out this link for info on the Whizzer.

http://www.usawct.org/coachescorner/whizzer.html
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Old 05-25-2006, 05:48 PM   #874
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

What Liddell...he punches that way because it works...not because it is necessarily principally correct on proper alignment etc...but because it works in reality.

Hence...that is where Matt Thornton is coming from.

It is good to study correct use of body, posture, ki and all that...but, in reality you find a 70 to 90 percent solution that works...and that is what you go with.





Kevin, Kevin

I guess the only difference is who's reality you are implying I am out of touch with? I'm a terrible writer.....but I am beginning to think you are an even worse reader I just keep repeating myself.

Why do you suppose I run, lift and train on heavy bags, and wear MMA gloves with no gi? To visualize Ki forces in fairy land? Do you think I am doing Ki exercise while standing on one leg and dreaming they fall down? Maybe...just maybe...you simply don't know what Rob and I are talking about. I am quite familiar with methods and reasons to set-up and connect. Head-hunting is a passion of mine.
You don't know or can conceptualize how a connected body can move to connect to that same head but do it in a different way. Knock-out power is knock-out power. Speed is speed. No fault or criticism there. Pactical speed and experience and reflexes to get you to effectively head-hunt are needed as well. But I do not accept that there is only one way there. Why? I know better. Many folks compartmentalize things they don't know and do the "Oh I know that...it wont work." Been-there-done-that." I've seen behind the curtain and continue to practice a different way to move.

Anyway, no disrespsect. I like and accept the sceptisism- not the cognative dissonence. At least acknowledge that we are debating the same point; practical utility! Once we get past that, we can debate the means to the end.

No one is standing still, and "holding" a posture. We're talking about fighting, flow, set-ups and counters, responsive transitions etc.. There are exercises that strengthen structure and connection of your body for real time, quick responsive power, so that when someone hits any one part... they hit the whole. Its part of that rubber coated steel feel. It also significantly adds to speed.
All we/me have discussed here............is.........fighting aspects. The practical means to better control, knockout, break, or otherwise have someone dominated as quickly as possible. We all know it doesn't always work out so neat and clean, but internal training is another great tool to get me there.
No matter what it is you, me or anyone on the planet is doing-internal skills will improve it. No one has to do it. It just helps.

There just good training skills bud.
Techniques, are more tools for the tool box.
Principles, are ways to use them.
Internal skills? They change- you.
And You?
ARE the tool box.

Cheers and happy Memorial day weekend to those in the states.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-25-2006 at 05:58 PM.
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Old 05-25-2006, 06:11 PM   #875
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I'd still love to see some examples. YouTube is a great service for showing rather than explaining...

Roy
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